Talk:Lia Looveer

regarding Changes by Termer. The Joint Baltic Committee of Sydney was an Australian, not an Estonian, organization. by Anti-Nationalist.

Well, it is a Baltic organization in Australia, not an Australian organization per se. FFI please see the State library of New South Wales: The Joint Baltic Committee was formed by representatives of the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian communities in Sydney in 1952, + Lia Looveer was a member of the Board of the Estonian Society of Sydney and office manager of the Estonian weekly Meie Rodo, 1956-1966.--Termer (talk) 05:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

User:PasswordUsername edit warring over category

User:PasswordUsername thinks the Category:Estonian politicians is based upon ethnicity, but it is in fact based upon nationality. As far as I know Lia Looveer was a dual Australian/Estonian national. --Martintg (talk) 03:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I rather expected it might be both, as the "Lists of..." Estonians, Latvian, and Lithuanians include both. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 13:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

PasswordUsername (whoever might that be?) doesn't think Category:Estonian politicians is based upon ethnicity, descent, or birth location. He thinks it is based on nationality, here meaning where the person actively participates in politics [1], although Vecrumba apparently thinks the reverse [2], Martintg. ;-) If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, Theodore Roosevelt would be a Dutchman, while Alfred Rosenberg would be Estonian. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Lia Looveer had dual Australian/Estonian nationality, so what is User:PasswordUsername arguing about? --Martintg (talk) 22:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

He means that she wasn't active in Estonian politics, as he explained. Croatian Prime Minister Hrvoje Šarinić is a dual Croatian-French citizen, but he's not a "French politician" because of it. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 22:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

´´If politician categories were classified by ethnicity, Theodore Roosevelt would be a Dutchman, while Alfred Rosenberg would be Estonian. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 20:36, 28 October 2009 (UTC)´´ - funny, I never knew Alfred Rosenberg was Estonian. Ever heard of Baltic Germans? --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

He was a Baltic German, born in Estonia. C'mon, Miacek–I never claimed that he was Estonian and wouldn't describe him as one despite his being born in Reval (Tallinn), which is why the analogy was used. That's the whole point: you classify an individual as an "X-ian politician" if said individual is active in politics in country "X." Any other classification, whether by birth or descent, is non-sensical, which is why presenting Theodore Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" and Alfred Rosenberg an Estonian Nazi figure would be a stupid way of classifying people. It's the invalidity of this sort of categorization that I've been illustrating. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I can't see how any of this nonsense about Roosevelt as "Dutch politician" is related to the subject unless Roosevelt was an active member of Dutch political organizations in the US like Looveer was an active member of Estonian political organizations in Australia.--Termer (talk) 00:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Was Looveer a Nazi collaborator?

Wasn't she a Nazi collaborator? According to this link [3], Looveer, worked for Baltic Radio in Nazi Germany, 1944-45. I wonder why her son had no need to hide this sort of thing. I am also wondering if the Australian public was largely aware of this fact. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 02:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia describes collaborationism as

the treason of cooperating with enemy forces occupying one's country. As such it implies criminal deeds in the service of the occupying power, including complicity with the occupying power in murder, persecutions, pillage, and economic exploitation as well as participation in a puppet government.

I don't think a case (one out of thousands) of a Baltic person having fled the country as the Soviet occupants seized the land and then working for some months for a rather unknown German radio warrants the label 'Nazi collaborator'. Similarly, chairmen of minor kolkhozes in the ESSR aren't usually described as Soviet collaborators. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if the station was propaganda or not. Did Nazi Germany seemply broadcast Baltic Radio for the fun of it? Maybe. That's why I asked. And a collaborator is somebody who collaborates with an occupier. Even the initially pro-German Juri Uluots (claiming the mantle of Estonia's legitimate ruler during the Nazi occupation) got his Estonian supporters fighting Germans by 1944, while Lia Loover went to Germany and worked for this mysterious broadcaster in 1944-45, so I think the description seems fitting. Explain? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Nationalist nèe PasswordUsername, please present evidence that "Baltic Radio" was a Nazi radio station and not a Baltic (language, I would presume) radio station operating from Germany. That something operated in Germany during the war does not automatically make that something a Nazi enterprise. Are you here to create content or to smear a dead Estonian? (Per your openly leading question starting as: "Wasn't she a Nazi collaborator?", your innuendo "wondering" about her son having "no need to hide", "wondering" about the Australian public.) VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 17:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Besides that British Empire Medal is awarded for meritorious civil or military service worthy of recognition by the crown. I'm surprised that PU wasn't "wondering" about the validness of my relative being decorated with that medal. --Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 17:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm just wondering about this, Vecrumba. Thanks for assuming good faith. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

I only observed the manner in which you asked your question. Constructively asked questions are always taken to be in good faith. Questions asked in the form of accusatory innuendo are not. Enough said on this and elsewhere. VЄСRUМВА [TALK] 18:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless it's shown promptly how exactly is this smearing related to a discussion about "improving the article", I'm gong to remove this chapter from the talk page shortly. Thanks for understanding! --Termer (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not smearing: it's a question I'm asking because I'd like to know about Looveer's work in Germany and if there's any further information I might be able to look at. It is a relevant question because I was wondering about adding her to category Nazi collaborators, as she prima facie appears to have been a real collaborator with the Nazi authorities, even going from Estonia to Germany and then working on what appears to have been a propaganda radio station (I don't think Baltic Radio Germany was broadcast into Estonia in 1944-45 for fun and profit). Anti-Nationalist (talk) 23:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

As I said, bring something more than your personal interpretation and speculation to the plate.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  20:16, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Let's see, let's see! Here's my basis for asking a simple question about her: [4]. Aight? You gonna give me a lynching for that? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

This is not a speedy candidate as the page was not created to disparage its subject. If you guys come to a consensus that the discussion should be hidden then someone can just blank this section. Deletion is not necessary. James086^{Talk | Email} 07:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the Baltic radio in Poland and Germany in 1944, there was considerable amount of Baltic war refugees out there at the time and what has their Baltic radio station where Looveer worked according to her resume anything to do with "Anti-Nationalist" personal speculations here? Wikipedia is not a place to publish original research or original thought, so why hasn't this section been deleted yet?--Termer (talk) 23:44, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

I want information, not speculation. The file I have twice linked to refers to Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt–an official establishment, if we're going by the name of it. I would like more information about this station–such as, for one, whether the station was commandeered and run by one Joseph Goebbels, as the Nazi state's broadcasting was. From the sound of it, it seems like a Nazi propaganda station, but I would very, very much like more information about this seemingly obscure radio service as I do not want to "publish original research or original thought" or "personal speculations" of any sort here. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

What you said above you want is "adding her to category Nazi collaborators". In case you want more information about the radio station, why don't you contact for example the information services of the British crown. They surely must have asked questions about the work at the station in case it was run "by one Joseph Goebbels" etc. while considering awarding her with the British Empire Medal.--Termer (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, my question had a practical purpose. I think if she worked for a Nazi propaganda station in '44-45 after moving to Germany, she can be classified as a Nazi collaborator. If you have any numbers for me to call or people to e-mail to find out the nature of her activities, well, help a brother out. By the late '40s, the Australians accepted low-level collaborators into their country, actually. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:09, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

No kidding...? I would love to help you out just that please explain which part of WP:FORUM is not clear enough? Hope you don't mind if I spell it out for you: "If you wish to ask a specific question on a topic, Wikipedia has a Reference desk, and questions should be asked there rather than on talk pages."--Termer (talk) 01:36, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Huh? I am discussing one of the sources in this article (see my first post in this section), which mentions Looveer's work in Nazi Germany for a station called "Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt" in 1944-1945. I am wondering about whether such work could serve as evidence of Looveer's working as a Nazi collaborator. I asked a question about what it could mean, since I thought that the article could fit in the Nazi collaborators category, but wanted to be sure first. I am sorry if this came across as an "attack" for you–but how else does one discuss what appears to have been Looveer's Nazi collaboration without actually talking about Nazi collaboration? Discussing the article's content and how it may be more accurately represented is a fully acceptable activity to be carried out on talk pages–per WP:TALK. How can I be any more clear about this? Anti-Nationalist (talk) 16:14, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

All you have presented is a primary source that mention she worked briefly in Germany then proceed to make WP:OR speculation that it is evidence of Nazi collaboration. Since that you apologize that it came across as an attack, perhaps you could demonstrate that you raised this matter in good faith by allowing the deletion of this discussion, which you have been reverting [5][6][7][8]. --Martintg (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

A bloc of nationalist editors reverting repeatedly in order to remove a valid question by somebody else is actually unacceptable. No. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

In no place says Looveer's resume [9] "work in Nazi Germany for a station called "Baltic Radio Reichskunfunkt" in 1944-1945" like "Anti-Nationalist claims. It says "Baltic Radio, Reichskunfunkt, Germany, Thorn, Poland" where the latter are obviously place names. Where is Thorn in Poland is clear, where or what exactly is this Reichskunfunkt (it doesn't mean anything by itself) in Germany remains unclear. The bottom line however suggesting based on this entry on Looveers resume that she may have been a "nazi collaborator" is flat out ridiculous. And labeling other editors with the "nationalist" tag doesn't make the whole thing look more serious, quite the contrary.--Termer (talk) 00:36, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

That's what I have been asking about, Termer! Thorn was a place under Nazi German control at the time. Anti-Nationalist (talk) 01:21, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

(od) On top of everything else this is original research as there is no secondary source, nor primary as in a press statement issued by a respected organization such as the Wiesenthal Center, which has stated anything about Looveer being a Nazi collaborator. Until then, this is is all a discussion which (a) IMHO is simply an attempt to smear Looveer (as living person BLP does not apply) and (b) regardless of (a), to do so via the injection of WP:OR. When reliable scholarship publishes a book on Estonian Nazi collaborators and it includes accusations against Looveer—and no such reputable accusations, indeed, none at all, have been produced and therefore are not germane to the article—then we can discuss it further as it will pertain to improving the content of the article.
   Until then, any further discussion is making this talk page into a forum and should be stricken or archived, and closed. I hope this is clear.  PЄTЄRS VЄСRUМВА ►talk  17:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

All this energy would be better used for a trip to the library. I found one book, and according to "Rundfunk in Deutschland: Rundfunkpolitik im Dritten Reich" by Ansgar Diller, 9783423031844, page 404-406, the Reichs-Rundfunk, Reichssender Baltikum was a relay station that was previously a Polish radio station, and became after 1939 a relay station for the Reichssender Danzig. The station was mostly broadcasting German programs, most of just relaid from other radio stations, some produced in Thorn. The Baltischer Reichs-Rundfunk was a propaganda program in Estonian, Lithuanian and Latvian, and I am quoting verbatim "produzierte mit Hilfe von 10 Kollaborateuren Nachrichten, Propaganda und Unterhaltungssendung in den Sprachen des Baltikums" (Transl.: "produced with the help of 10 collaborateurs from baltic countries news, propaganda and entertainment in the languages of the baltic countries). Unfortunately the book does not mention Lia Looveer, but it seems, judging from this article that there are not many sources on this person to begin with. Pantherskin (talk) 19:48, 17 November 2009 (UTC)