Talk:Machine pistol

Brazen

A machine pistol is a handgun-style'

MP40, PPSh-41... are firearm, arm-gun style, not are handgun-style.

Symbolic Machine pistol are: German MP-18, German MP-40, Russian PPD-40, Russian PPSh-41, Russian PPS-43... are handgun-style ??. (German MP, Russian PP are machine pistol), Maschinenpistole, Пистолет-пулемёт.

Reihenfeuerpistole, Автоматический пистолет= Automatic Pistol, like as Glock-18. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Huyphuc1981 nb (talk • contribs) 07:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Huyphuc1981 nb, it is clear that the literal translation of the German word Maschinenpistole is the source of your ongoing bewilderment. The correct English translation of Maschinenpistole is submachine gun, not machine pistol. In German, Maschinenpistole refers to a fully automatic arm that fires pistol ammunition such as the MP40 or PPSh, weapons that are clearly not pistols from anyone's standpoint. In English, machine pistol describes a fully automatic pistol, like a Mauser Schnellfeuer, Stechkin or Beretta 93R, as this article states. The fact that the Interwiki link in this article points to Reihenfeuerpistole in the German Wikipedia, not Maschinenpistole should make this clear.

As the article states, there are some models that have characteristics of both SMGs and machine pistols - the MAC 10 and 11, Czech Skorpion, Micro Uzi, etc. Twalls (talk) 22:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Criteria for a machine pistol

Part of the problem with these weapons is that they're difficult to categorize. An MP isn't necessarily "built up" from an existing design, after all. The Stechkin, one of the most famous machine pistols, was designed from the beginning to be a selective-fire weapon. It's handheld, to be sure, and it resembles a conventional pistol, but it is a fully automatic weapon. The line between it and an Ingram MAC-10 is rather narrow. One might use the argument that an MP always fires from a closed bolt, and that an SMG is always open-bolt, but that would need sourcing. A particularly confusing case is that of the Lercker. I just created the page for it. It's an interesting gun, and very difficult to classify. It's select-fire, blowback, yet fires from an open bolt all the time. However, it's designed to be hand-operated, not a shoulder arm, concealable on the person, with no stock, foregrip, or long threaded barrel. Is it an SMG, or a machine pistol? I say MP. I only found one image of it online (a scan from A.B. Zhuk's book on handguns), and it sure looks like a pistol, even with the bolt overhang.[1] Sacxpert (talk) 08:15, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I would enter that the distinction is simple. If the weapon has a slide, it is a machine pistol. If it has a bolt it is a SMG. The open/closed bolt division won’t work because some SMGs (like the MP5) do fire from a closed bolt. SirBob42 (talk) 02:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That might be a reasonable ground for distinction -- I think we need a source. I agree that the open/closed division doesn't work by itself, but an MP5 doesn't resemble a handgun, either, so I think it automatically (so to speak) falls off the list. Here's a question, though: what's the difference between a slide and a bolt (the Desert Eagle has both)? Sacxpert (talk) 04:44, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Just taking a stab at a definition, a slide is on the exterior of the gun whereas a bolt is (mostly) inside. The Desert Eagle does kind of confound the slide/bolt distinction though. Hopefully no one is crazy enough to make a full auto version and enter this debate. SirBob42 (talk) 14:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

This is a place where there is no good, widely accepted technical differenciation between "machine pistols" and "submachineguns". The closest consensus that I have yet seen in the technical community is whether or not it is designed to be readily useable like a pistol -- that is, one handed. Further more, "submachinegun" is frequently taken to mean the general class, while "machine pistol" is used as a subset of that class and "submachinegun" used to mean "all submachineguns that aren't machinepistols". (Confused yet? grin)

Doesn't have to be controllable in full auto in one hand -- machine pistols are notorious (as a general class) for being uncontrollable. Doesn't have to exclude having a foregrip or stock -- both of those features can be readily (if illegally in the US in most cases) added to many pistols. Wouldn't include a gun as a machine pistol simply because it is feasible to hold and fire it one handed (like the full size Uzi). Most people whotouch this subject generally seem to agree that a full auto weapon firing a "pistol" class round (thus excluding some freak guns based on cut down assault rifles), that falls into the general size range of service pistols or smaller (thus excluding "pistols" like the full size pistols that are really 9mm carbines that look like SMGs without stocks), and is designed so as to be reasonably handy in one hand, would be a "machine pistol". The subjective nature of such a definition means that differing people will disagree on where some particular guns fall. Things like the Stechkin, Glock 18, Beretta 93R, and full auto Broomhandle Mausers (Model 712) are generally accepted as machine pistols without question. Guns like the Skorpion, HK MP5K, Steyr TMP, and Micro-Uzi (especially when they don't have stocks mounted) are frequently considered to qualify as machine pistols. Larger guns (Mini-Uzi, MP5, that are truly designed for two hands, and aren't very useable by one hand are generally considered to not be machine pistols.

And that's about as clear cut as you'll find. You can find reliable references to support almost any specific break down you like. In that regard it's a lot like where "rifle" stops and "carbine" begins, or that fuzzy area between heavy machineguns and light autocannon (technical experts have used anywhere from 12.7mm to 40mm as the cut-off between "small arms" and "cannons", depending on which reference you use). Throw a dozen disputed machine pistols from the "fuzzy zone" on a table, and ask a dozen different technical experts, and you'll likely get AT LEAST a dozen different break downs.

However, using a "slide" versus "bolt" definition won't work. LOTS of regular pistols have bolts, and machine pistols have been designed around many of them. (Sometimes it seems like Spanish gunmakers made machine pistol clones of just about every centerfire semiauto pistol around in the 1930's. grin) I wouldn't classify the C96 Mauser (or it's FA variant, the 712 machine pistol) as having a "slide"; it has a bolt. Meanwhile the Polish PM63 has a slide, not a bolt, but is a tad on the large size and too "submachinegunny" to be considered a "machine pistol" by many (333mm long stock closed, 583mm long stock open, 2kg loaded, open "bolt" operation, folding stock and foregrip).

Geodkyt (talk) 16:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Under the WP:VNT policy (Verifiability not truth), the goal of Wikipedia is Verifiability, not truth. If a reputable source says that weapon XYZ is a machine pistol, we put it in the article and add the reference: "According to the National Encyclopedia of Firearms, the XYZ-203 is a machine pistol". Whether we humble Wikipedia editors think this is the truth or not is not the main factor. Now, if another reputable source disagrees, we can put that too."While the National Encyclopedia of Firearms classifies the XYZ-203 as a machine pistol, the Guns Almanac 2009 argues that it should be classified as a submachine gun, due to its design and lack of a slide". (all examples are silly made-up examples).OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 07:06, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

National Firearms Act referense

The article mentions that "In the US, adding a stock or forward handgrip to a pistol is illegal under the US National Firearms Act, as pistols must be designed to be fired with one hand." But isn't that meaningless to the subject of machine pistols, which are classified as machine guns rather than pistols under the NFA anyway? 75.76.213.106 (talk) 06:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. The sentence is about the Beretta 93R which would be a "machinegun" under the NFA and regulated and taxed as such. I've removed the incorrect information. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 13:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Guns guideline against criminal and fictional sections

This is just a guideline. You only have to follow Wikipedia policies. In the case of machine pistols, applying these two guidelines would weaken the quality of the article. Machine pistols started out as a military/special forces weapon. But since the more widespread use of body armour, they are much less used by military and special forces (who are preferring armour-piercing PDWs). Which groups still LOVE the machine pistol, even though it is inaccurate? Criminal users. In the 1980s onward, drug traffickers and gangsters loved the concealable firepower of machine pistols.So that is my argument for including a criminal section. Admittedly the previous criminal section had unsourced OR, which has been purged.....Now onto the fictional section. My friends, watch a 2000s era action movie...the directors have fallen in love with the image of a full-auto Glock firing, with spent cartridges spraying out the side (e.g., Underworld movies). Finally, my argument for resisting the Guns guidelines is the Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. Yes, I know that you can't take that policy literally, but I am invoking it in the sense that I don't think that we should let a general Guns guideline (which may have a good purpose overall) prevent the writing of a good article for machine pistols, which are a fairly unusual type of weapon. One last point...the removal of entire sections, including material sourced from respected mainstream newspapers is arguably excessive. Fine, take out the unsourced speculation, but some respect should be accorded to sourced content.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 20:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Fictional section?

Any thoughts on removing the 'Fictional use' section per Wikipedia:GUNS#Pop_culture? Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 23:39, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Agree. ⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 02:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, The fictional section does not give undue weight to fictional use of machine pistols. It is maybe 1/15 of the entire article. The Wikiproject guideline suggests weaving fictional use into the article, rather than giving fictional use its own section. In this case, it would look silly. You'd have a paragraph on the Glock 18's features and law enforcement usage, and then a sentence saying "and by the way, this weapon was used in these 4 films...". So that is what prompted me to gather all of the fictional use into a single section. There are some potential problems with the Wikiproject guns guideline on pop culture. It refers to the notability of topics that are mentioned in the section. In Wikipedia, the term "notability" does not refer to the content of articles, it only refers to an entire article. If there is an article on an actor, there will be a discussion on whether the actor is notable or not (i.e., has the actor appeared in major films or won awards). Once the community of editors has decided that the actor IS notable enough for an article, and the article is written, Wikipedia no longer discusses whether content about the actor is notable or not. The concerns then become issues like: is the content Original Research? Is the content libellous? Is the content adequately sourced? Does the content give undue weight to a subtopic (e.g., a legal scandal or drug use by the actor)?...........................I take issue with the claim in Wikipedia guns policy that they can ban an entire type of section (in pop culture sections). This is a larger debate at Wikipedia...just as there are editors (like the editors in the Wikipedia Guns project and in other groups) who are against pop culture sections, there are editors who believe that pop culture sections, if well-written (so that they are not random lists of trivia) can contribute to a reader's understanding of the topic. ................If you want to take out an entire section, I would ask that you cite a higher source than the Wikipedia Guns project guideline. Policies are higher than guidelines. Please show how the fictional section violates a Wikipedia-wide policy (...for example, does this section have undue weight? does it have Original Research? etc?) OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 03:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I have removed many unsourced statements from the fictional section. Now there is an intro sentence (stating that MPs are depicted in a variety of genres...that I hope does not need a source). Then there are two films named, each with a quote from a published review. Wikipedia's ArbCom has held that removal of relevant sourced content may constitute disruptive behaviour. The content is relevant because is both cases, the reviewers have noted the use of machine pistols in the films. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 03:34, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Comments on weapons

what the GLOCK 18 isnt burst fire(Uber555 19:49, 1 April 2006 (UTC))

How about the H&K MP7? It's kind of an SMG, but it's so...small compared to others.

It qualifies as a PDW. Also isn't the word machine pistol a synonym for a submachine gun? AllStarZ 21:11, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Currently, the Glock 18 and Stechkin APS[1] are the only handgun-shaped machine pistols capable of full-auto fire.

The OTS-33 Pernach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTS-33_Pernach) is capable of Fully Automatic Fire as well.

'Examples' section.

I am thinking of turning the 'Examples' section into a table format that contains some basic information regarding the weapon/weapon system in question. Before doing so, I thought I'd post on the talk page for thoughts, suggestions, etc. Thanks. Surv1v4l1st ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 23:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Criminal use

The "Criminal Use" section of this article is in need of major cleanup. It is geared very negatively toward certain firearms, and does not display a NPOV at all. --69.134.240.237 (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be titled "Perceptions of Criminal Use." Twalls (talk) 01:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, In good faith, I search out any references to criminal use of machine pistols and add them. The reason that most of the coverage is on the Tec-9 and the Mac-10 is because that is what the articles or sources I found talked about. The negative tone you describe ("pray and spray", "intimidation", "execution", etc) comes from the articles, not from me. If you find verifiable, third-party sources that claim that other machine pistols are used in crimes, then add these other weapons. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

air marshals' use of frangible bullets

u.s. air marshals use frangible ammunition not for risk of decompression, but rather to avoid puncturing critical systems. Although I cannot provide verification, I do have a logical argument: a very large, mildly compressed container will not explode if it has a 9mm hole in it. instead, it will 'fizzle', just like partially opening a soda bottle to prevent it from gushing. but airliners have compressors that can easily compensate for a small leak.