Talk:Metropolitan statistical area

2022 estimates

The US Census Bureau has released its annual county population estimates. Since MSAs are defined by county boundaries, that generally means that we can update the MSA and μSA estimates, too. However, Connecticut is no longer going with county boundaries and is now going with "planning regions" and, as such, the metro/micro estimates will not be released until May in order for them to make the requisite adjustments. You can briefly read more about it on the Census Bureau's official release for county population estimates. [1]. As such, I feel we should hold off on updating this table and the micro table until that time. Agreed? Coulraphobic123 (talk) 23:35, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Hyphens and Dashes

My understanding is the census bureau names MSAs and CSAs using two hyphens instead of an en dash(–). This looks a little funny, but it can help people avoid issues if they are trying to match text. Is the current use of the en dash intentional in names like 'Nashville-Davidson–Murfreesboro–Franklin, TN MSA'? 38.140.38.234 (talk) 18:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

The Office of Management and Budget defines MSAs. See OMB Bulletin 20-01 (starting on page 7), for example, where it appears that hyphens are used to concatenate names for MSAs. The relevant style guideline seems to be in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#In compounds when the connection might otherwise be expressed with to, versus, and, or between, which states,

Use an en dash for the names of two or more entities in an attributive compound.

• the Seifert–van Kampen theorem;   the Alpher–Bethe–Gamow theory
• the Seeliger–Donker-Voet scheme (developed by Seeliger and Donker-Voet)
• Comet Hale–Bopp or just Hale–Bopp (discovered by Hale and Bopp)

Donald Albury 19:04, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and linking the OMB PDF. I think a good example here is the MSA that includes Wilkes-Barre. The OMB defines the MSA as 'Scranton--Wilkes-Barre, PA Metropolitan Statistical Area'.

I'm suggesting that the en dashes currently used on this page should be replaced by either single or double hyphens to match the OMB's naming convention. I understand that this differs from the style guide, but matching the data in the table to the list put out by the OMB and used in all census related data seems more important to me.

Do you agree with that or think it's better to stick with the hyphen, en dash mixture? 38.140.38.234 (talk) 20:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see, there are several such cases. I suggest using en dashes for the hyphens and em dashes for the double hyphens. You can also ask for advice at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. I didn't see anything like this in a quick search of the archives for that talk page. Donald Albury 21:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

A little late to the conversation here, but I am currently redoing the table on my own computer in preparation for the 2023 estimates which will be released in 2024. As of 2023, there are new delineations/boundaries for metro and micro areas (see topics on the talk page listed below) and I am putting together a table that recalculates the 2020 Census populations taking into account the new boundaries of these delineations. In doing so, I am replacing all of the en dashes with em dashes, except where en dashes are appropriate...i.e., Nashville-Davidson, Wilkes-Barre, and Winston-Salem. Otherwise, em dashes will be used in lieu of the double-dash in order to separate the different cities. Hope this makes sense and is acceptable! Coulraphobic123 (talk) 00:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

New Delineations Report

The OMB has issued a New Delineations Report. This website and the map that goes with it needs to be updated.Inkan1969 (talk) 16:55, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. Aren't redelineations only done when they update commuting numbers? I thought that only happens once or twice in between Censuses? It appears the last redelineation was in 2020. Criticalthinker (talk) 05:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Delineations are also based on annual American Community Survey data and population estimates.[2] It takes a while for analysis of decennial census data to be completed. The 2020 delineation was issued March 6, 2020, before the census data collection started, so this latest delineation is the first to incorporate data from the 2020 census. Donald Albury 11:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Redelineations are only based on commuting numbers, though. I think they do annual updates as it relates to population where an area can become an metropolitan statistical area, or fall to become a micropolitan area. But the actual delineations are based on 5-year commuting data. Now that I look at it, it seems that perhaps the last one was in 2018. It didn't seem that long. lol Criticalthinker (talk) 20:42, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I believe the delineations occur twice per Census, but I could be wrong on that. Sedriskell (talk) 21:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

There have been changes to area definitions made in 1950, 1952, 1956, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1963, 1964, 1971, 1973, 1981, 1983, 1992, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2013, 2015, 2018, and 2020,[3] and now this year, 2023. There have been changes 2 or 3 years after each decennial census since 1950. There were frequent changes early on, but a slowdown after the 1960s. Since 2003, there have been 3 or 4 new delineations in each of the last two decades. Donald Albury 01:23, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, got more info on this. There was not a schedule for decennial delineations and the 5-year updates. In 2021, they adopted a schedule. 2023 would be the between decennial delineations and the 5-year commuting flow update will occur in 2028 with everything in between and after (to 2030) being the regularly scheduled annual updates which are minor updates based on population estimates. Criticalthinker (talk) 02:08, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

So, just two (major?) delineations in the next decade. Will the annual updates possibly change definitions of any areas? If so, how will those be announced? I'm not clear on whether and how principal cities have been changed between the major delineations. I recall one case in which a principal city in an MSA's title was replaced and then restored a few months later, based on press releases and news reports, but I don't see it in the OMB Bulletins I have found. Donald Albury 11:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean, this isn't a significant change; it's just a set schedule, now. We usually only get two or so major delineations since the American Community Survey commutting data is 5-year. And the annual delineations, again, are only based on population change, meaning that the only changes here will be becoming or falling out of being a metropolitan or micropolitan area. Criticalthinker (talk) 00:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Census estimates for 2023 next year

Is there a consensus as to how to go about logging the population estimates for 2023 that will be released in early 2024 as far as the 2020 Census column goes? Since the borders of some metropolitan areas have changed and been redefined, keeping the original population in the 2020 Census column may reflect a misleading population change. Example: the Sioux Falls, MSA has added a fifth county per the most recently released MSA delineations. When the 2023 population estimates come in next year, should the 2020 Census population reflect the original 4-county population in 2020, or should the 2020 Census be re-calculated to include the 2020 Census population for the new fifth county as if it had been originally included in the first place? Similarly, Connecticut has switched from counties to planning regions which have completely changed the boundaries of everything. Should these also be taken into consideration in recalculating the 2020 Census column? Or should the 2020 Census column just be kept as is without recalculating per the new delineations? Sorry for not being succinct, I hope what I'm saying makes sense XD Coulraphobic123 (talk) 02:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure we do apples-to-apples comparisons. So, yeah, the 2020 numbers would be for the new delineations. In fact, that's something that could be prepared, now, for the existing annual estimate if someone has that kind of initiative. Criticalthinker (talk) 08:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Criticalthinker that's something I could start working on this week. It may take a couple of days. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 11:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

What about the micropolitan areas that have become metropolitan areas with these new delineations and vice-versa? Should we go ahead and bring those micros onto this current list now while moving the metros to the micros page that changed, or should that wait until the new estimates are released next year? Coulraphobic123 (talk) 20:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Criticalthinker (talk) 23:18, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

To which part? Waiting until the 2023 estimates are released next year to shuffle the micros and metros that have changed? Coulraphobic123 (talk) 00:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

No, I was saying that if you want to change everything to match the new delineations, do that, unless there are objections. Criticalthinker (talk) 00:50, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I certainly have no objections. Sedriskell (talk) 20:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Just as an update, I am working through this (and will be updating the micros and CSAs, too)...just taking a while as there is a lot of number and county shuffling and verification. Coulraphobic123 (talk) 21:52, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for putting in the work! There are tons of people who appreciate it; I know I certainly do! Sedriskell (talk) 17:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Population Accuracy

The numbers in the table are inconsistent with numbers shown for the same figure on other Wikipedia pages. For example, SF Bay Area MSA is shown as ~4M here, but over 7M in other pages 71.191.218.90 (talk) 15:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Whatever is shown here are the official numbers. This is an article about official OMB-defined Metropolitan Statistical Areas. Other articles on metropolitan areas either use these delineations, exclusively, or include them in a more general understanding of a "metropolitan area." Criticalthinker (talk) 23:43, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

But the numbers being used are inaccurate population figures of these MSAs.

One example, is that the New Orleans-Metairie, MSA you have a population of 972k+. But the census shows to population estimate to be 1,246k. The 972k+ number is from a different categorized as the New Orleans urban (a smaller area within the overall MSA).

Look at New Orleans-Metairie, MSA on this table for the 2022 population estimates. It looks like the same error for every MSA. 2603:6011:3B00:AF04:A8AF:5A5B:FA65:172C (talk) 00:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Recent changes by the 2023 OMB Bulletin

Hi there from the de:Portal:Vereinigte Staaten! Is there any kind of a summary of all changes by the new 2023 OMB Bulletin regarding new delineations and up-/downgrades of areas to/from MSAs? As there will not take place a new census earlier than 2030, is it therefore necessary to add all the particular county inhabitant numbers of 2020, or is there anywhere a line-up of all numbers of re-defined MSAs one can refer to as a source? It is hard to keep track of things here, as a non-native English speaker. By the way, we prefer to work with census data only and want to avoid using data from an estimate. Thank you for your support. Regards Dionysos1988 (talk) 21:51, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps this is what you're looking for?

https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/OMB-Bulletin-23-01.pdf

We've discussed this above in the "Census estimates for 2023 next year" section of this talk page. Criticalthinker (talk) 10:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Actually I thought about a separate document of a summary of all changes compared to 2020. Right now I have updated the whole list. Dionysos1988 (talk) 12:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

No such list exists. You have to simply compare the previous delineation list to the most recent one. Criticalthinker (talk) 08:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)