Talk:Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah

Title

I'm wondering if we should move this to another title, as the boy is only part of the story. The usual thing would be to call it "Death of Muhammad al-Durrah," but that would be unlikely to stick, so I was wondering about "Muhammad al-Durrah affair." That's the title the French Wikipedia uses. [1] The Spanish uses "death of." [2] Sweden and Norway use the name, like us. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be supportive of that. Millmoss (talk) 18:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm on the fence. The term "affair" sounds off to me. It looks like several articles use "death of" (Death of Jesus, Death of Adolf Hitler, Death of Michael Jackson, Death of Neda Agha-Soltan). I'm trying to think of similar articles to use as a guideline... we could consider splitting the article into two, like the John F. Kennedy assassination and the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories articles. ← George ^talk 20:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm opposed to such a splitting, as it pre-supposes that one view (the boy was killed) is correct, while the other (the event was staged) is not. Why does "affair" sound off? WOudl you prefer "Muhammad al-Durrah media controversy"? Millmoss (talk) 20:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

With the above suggestion, I'm using articles such as 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies or Killian documents controversy as a model. Millmoss (talk) 20:18, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be opposed to splitting too, because it would create two POV forks. And we can't call it "death of," given that that's disputed. I know the disputants are in the minority, but not to the point where they can be ignored entirely. In what way does "affair" feel off to you, George? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The Death of Adolf Hitler article mentions "rumours that Hitler may have survived the end of World War II", yet it still has that title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the view that the boy is still alive and hiding somewhere (on that island with Elvis perhaps?) would be the extreme minority view (versus the more common minority view that he was shot, intentionally or accidentally, by Palestinians instead of Israelis).

Splitting may not be the best idea, though I'm trying to think of one title that would satisfy everyone. Do you have examples of other articles using the word "affair" in their title? The Watergate affair, for instance, redirects to Watergate scandal, and if affair is used synonymously with "scandal" that would imply a very specific POV in this case. ← George ^talk 20:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I honestly don't see the point of moving it to another title. The existing title is short and to the point. It's not as if we're trying to disambiguate this article from another one of a similar name (as in the case of Jesus, Michael Jackson, Hitler, Kennedy etc). The current name causes no confusion and doesn't overlap with anything else; if it isn't broken why fix it? -- ChrisO (talk) 20:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

This is a fair point. What's the impetus for move? ← George ^talk 20:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We're increasingly not supposed to name non-bios after the names of individuals. When such a article is about a death, it's moved to Death of. We can't do that in this case because the death is disputed, so it leaves us in a bind. I'm thinking this article has the potential to get to FAC, so I'm trying to anticipate objections. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Though I suppose the title "Death of" would still convey that the article was about the reported death, which would accommodate the minority view. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that's a valid reason to consider a rename. I was thinking about "Muhammad al-Durrah shooting", but, just like the death, some dispute that he was even shot. It's probably just not possible to please everyone. ← George ^talk 20:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I'll take your word for it about the naming of non-bios. "Death of" would be the best title. George, some people dispute that Elvis is dead but we still have a Death of Elvis Presley article! There's only so much we can do to accomodate all shades of opinion. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Elvis, we have an autopsy confirming he's dead. That makes claims that he is alive a fringe conspiracy. In this case, we have no autopsy, no body, and no bullets. What we have is a claim by Enderlin that he removed a death scene - a claim know known to be false. We also have testimony of a the cameraman, who was found by a court of law to be an unreliable witness, and who is on record telling an investigative reporter that he has "secrets". The two cases are not on par, and I would oppose renaming this article "Death of.." when the death is disputed enough that the article does not even state he was killed - only that he was "reported to have been killed ". Millmoss (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We have a certification from the hospital that he is dead, photographs of his dead body, eyewitness testimony that he is dead and that he was buried and statements from both sides that he is dead (neither the IDF nor the Israeli Government has ever endorsed the conspiracy theory that he is not dead). The rest of your comments are just smears of living people. You're also misreading the line you're quoting. It doesn't say he was "reported to have been killed." It says he was "reported to have been killed by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) gunfire". The object of the sentence is the IDF gunfire, which was reported to have been the agent of his death. The fact of his death is only disputed by a tiny minority of conspiracy theorists. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No, we have certification from the hospital that a boy was dead, a boy admitted to the hospital hours before the shooting is alleged to have happened - but we don't know which boy it is. We have photographs of a dead boy's body, which video experts have concluded is a different boy than the one shown in the Rahma video. We have the eyewitness testimony of the cameraman that he is dead, and we have a court finding that that testimony is not credible. What the IDF or the Israeli government publicly supports, for reason known only to them, is a red herring. If you point out which statements are " smears of living people", I'll remove them. I have been studying the sources provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad_al-Durrah/sources, and many of them seriously doubt the "fact" of his death. It is far from a "tiny minority of conspiracy theorists." Millmoss (talk) 22:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The doctors from the hospital confirmed the death of Muhammad al-Durrah. And contrary to your claim, the fact that the IDF chose to not endorse the finding of an investigation conducted by their own general is casts serious doubt on said investigation. ← George ^talk 22:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

You are simply wrong about this last part. The official Israeli position was derived from an assumption that from a public relations perspective, no good can come of continued investigations - no one will be convinced, and continued debate just keeps this in the news as a PR nightmare. You can argue if this was a valid strategy, but it has absolutely no relevance to the validity of the investigation. This is basic logic, really. Millmoss (talk) 23:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

George,

Gen. Yom Tov Samia endorsed the investigation's determination that Palestinian bullets probably killed the boy. Also, Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland changed his position completely following investigations. You can see the latter in the second documentary (maybe the first one as well). Millmoss is right as well to the false assumption you've made about the official Israeli approach to this incident. Please be careful about making erroneous statements about the content.

Regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Gen. Samia conducted the investigation. And yes, Eiland supported that view, while the IDF distance themselves from both. One could say that Israel didn't want to embrace the report's conclusion because evidence that they didn't kill a 12-year-old would somehow be damning, but that falls into the realm of WP:OR. Or do we have a source for why the IDF didn't embrace the investigation's conclusions? ← George ^talk 23:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

We do have it and I and Millmoss just told you what the sources say. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Can you give me a direct quote from your source since I can't see it? ← George ^talk 00:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Here you go: "In recent years Israel has avoided relating to the incident, mostly because of the Foreign Ministry's recommendation that renewed handling of the affair would not help Israel's image in any case. " This is from Ha'aretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/908851.html Millmoss (talk) 22:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO,

Please stop promoting one version of what reliable sources say. Another version is that the dead boy in the images was (a) admitted at 10am (per the Palestinian doctor), which is earlier than the al-Durrahs were at the junction, and (b) this dead child was determined, by an international biometrics expert, as being a different boy than Jamal's son, Muhammad al-Durrah. I think we should avoid either statement about him being dead (quite possible but has been heavily questioned for inconsistencies and lack of evidence) or alive (not highly supported by reliable sources but is gaining in support).

In general, I'm undecided on the name change suggestion, but 'Death of' is a serious push in one direction and I am fully against that one.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The different positions

I thought it might help to lay out the various positions here for future reference:

1. He was shot and killed by the IDF. Held by Charles Enderlin, Talal Abu Rahma, most of the media that first responded, the IDF initially
2. He was shot and killed by Palestinian gunfire. Held by General Yom Tov Samia of the IDF following the Shahaf investigation, Daniel Leconte, former France 2 correspondent.
3. He was shot and killed but we don't know who fired the shots. Held by Arlette Chabot of France 2, and Israeli historian Tom Segev.
4. He was shot and killed, and we don't know by whom, but not by the IDF soldiers known to have been there. Held by James Fallows, The Atlantic Monthy.
5. He was probably shot, but we don't know by whom, and we have no reason to suppose he's dead. A boy did die that day in that area, but he arrived at the hospital (10 am) before al-Durrah was shot (after midday), and the boy shown during the funeral was not al-Durrah. Held by Esther Schapira.
6. There is no good reason to suppose that he was either shot or killed. The whole thing was a hoax. Held by Nahum Shahaf, Richard Landes, Philippe Karsenty, Daniel Seaman (Israeli govt press office), Luc Rosenzweig (retired managing editor of Le Monde), Jean-Claude Schlinger (French ballistics expert hired by Karsenty; Schlinger argues that it was probably a hoax, but if it was not, he was definitely not shot from the known IDF position).

My view from having read a lot of the research on this over the last couple of weeks is that most of the English-language media writing about it now would support the third position. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 21:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The latter is not necessarily a meaningful statement. The publications writing about it (such as the National Post, Jerusalem Post and Wall Street Journal, for instance) are (a) associated with a particular political POV, basically a hard-right pro-Israeli POV; and (b) the writings are almost entirely op-ed columns, not straight news reporting. The Al-Durrah story was originally covered in a very wide variety of outlets. Subsequent spikes in news coverage (as opposed to op-eds) related to, initially, Samia's exoneration of the IDF and then later the Karsenty libel trial. Coverage in the meantime was almost entirely confined to op-eds in right-wing outlets promoting a particular, often conspiracist, POV developed on the Internet by the likes of Landes. I don't think you can make a blanket statement about media positions without taking into account the facts that the outlets that are still covering the story are doing so primarily through op-ed commentary, not news reporting, and have a common ideological approach to the issue. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin - I think there is actually a position between your #3 and #4, which is 'He was shot and killed but we don't know who fired the shots, except to say that it was not by fire from The IDF position, as that is physically impossible' - that is the position that I think most sources would support today - it is what Fallows says, and it was what the independent French ballistic expert says in the latest trial appeal. Millmoss (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I would note that what you describe is position #2. I would say not many sources support this view, with more leaning towards #3 (the "we don't know" angle). ← George ^talk 22:41, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not position 2. It does not say it was Palestinians who did it, it leaves the actual identity of the shooters as an open question. Fallows is very explicit about this, and raises the possibility (which he thinks is unlikely, but theoretically possible) that it was other Israelis, who were not located in the IDF position that was initially reported as the source of the deadly shots. As I wrote, this position is supported by Fallows, by the French Ballistic expert, and by Schapira's 1st documentary.Millmoss (talk) 22:54, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

So #1 says the IDF killed him, #2 says the Palestinians killed him, #3 says we don't know who killed him, #4 says that we don't know that he's dead, #5 says that we don't know if he's been shot at all. You proposed that another possibility is that someone other than the IDF killed him, but disagree that the only someone else on the scene was the Palestinians. So who do you then claim killed him? The French? Ninja assassins? A troupe of clowns? ← George ^talk 23:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, it is not about what I claim ( I don't claim anything), but what reliable sources claim. Please stop personalizing this debate, and certainly stop doing so with mocking language. I am quoting to you, almost verbatim, what Fallows says - which is that we don't know who killed him, but we know for certain that it was not the IDF soldiers in the IDF position. Who was it? Perhaps it was Palestinian gunmen (deliberately, or unintentionally). Perhaps it was other IDF soldiers (deliberately, or unintentionally), located in a different position. Perhaps it was Israeli civilians. I don't know, and neither do the sources who support this position - but to mock it as you do is not a serious way to conduct debate. Millmoss (talk) 23:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

You said that there's an alternate version of events, one in which neither the IDF nor the Palestinians shot at the boy, so I'm asking who else it could have been (it was intended to be lightweight jest, not heavy handed mock). The only other people within any reasonable distance of the junction, other than these two groups, would have been Israeli settlers or foreign journalists, and, as far as I know, nobody has claimed that either of them shot the boy. While some sources say it wasn't the IDF without explicitly saying it was the Palestinians, the alternative you propose of a non-IDF, non-Palestinian shooter is unsupported by any sources. ← George ^talk 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO - I don't think your characterization of all the sources that support position number 3 as having "a hard-right pro-Israeli POV" is correct. I also don't think it is accurate to describe Schapira's documentaries as "Op-eds". Much of the coverage of the Karsenty libel trial concluded with news reports that echoed the claim that the entire event was staged - and this was in news outlets like Ha'artez that are far from having a "hard-right pro-Israeli POV". Millmoss (talk) 22:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

(ec) to Chris. It would take a while to gather the diffs, but I'm not talking about the Jerusalem Post, or clearly right-wing publications. Fallows's article in The Atlantic is a good example, as is Carvajal's in The New York Times. I also don't accept the straight news/opinion distinction. Just because something is on a news page doesn't mean it's not full of the writer's opinion, and something's being on a features page doesn't mean it's not well-researched. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:32, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Small query,

I didn't understand that we have a reliable source saying that Schillinger was hired by Karsenty. I thought that was speculation based on the reading of an unnamed ballistics document he published. Is this correct?

Regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:13, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The Karsenty judgement says that he was a defense witness. ← George ^talk 00:34, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

As does Schlinger's report. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Just so I can get it straight, is this the unsigned report that appears on Karsenty's website? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 03:43, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Another primary/secondary source tension

I have another example of a primary source perhaps being misinterpreted by secondary ones:

The Weekly Standard wrote on July 7, 2008 that: "The judge also noted 'inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions in the explanations by Charles Enderlin,' whose appearance in court was his first sworn testimony in the matter." [3] Melanie Phillips wrote the same in The Jewish Chronicle on July 4, 2008: "As the Paris judge wrote, there were 'inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions' between Enderlin's commentary and the images he was describing."

But The Wall Street Journal Europe writes that in an editorial on May 27, 2008 that "Judge Trebucq said that Mr. Karsenty 'observed inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions in the explanations by Charles Enderlin' (my bold). [4]

There's a big difference between the court noting contradictions, and the court saying Karsenty noted them. The original French is here. I believe the relevant section is:

Qu’en effet, le prévenu rappelle les faits, relate la polémique, indique que la MENA accuse la chaîne française de faux, avant de donner sa propre analyse et ses conclusions; que, dans ce cadre, il qualifie le premier épisode de pure fiction, ce qui est aussi soutenu par plusieurs des grandes signatures de la presse et de l’information ayant vu les rushes en octobre 2004; qu’il expose ensuite, au sujet de la scène principale, dans laquelle il a observé des incohérences inexplicables et des contradictions dans les explications sur l’agonie de l’enfant données par Charles ENDERLIN, que celui-ci se trompe, ce qui revient à lui imputer une simple erreur, et « du même coup », trompe le public, ce qui apparaît comme une formulation euphémique; qu’en concluant par une interrogation sur les raisons de « chercher à couvrir cette imposture », Philippe KARSENTY aborde le fond du sujet...

Does that section say that Karsenty noted the contradictions, or that the court did? Is there anywhere else in the document that indicates the court itself noted these contradictions or that it agreed with Karsenty about them? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 00:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

The The Wall Street Journal Europe seems to be the most accurate. The French says that "he observed the inexplicable inconsistencies and contradictions". ← George ^talk 01:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is it Karsenty who is doing the observing? Is there any indication that the judge is agreeing? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:33, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a French expert, but yes, in this case the "he" is referring to Karsenty when it says "he observed". It would be similar to if I wrote "SlimVirgin looked up, and she observed that the sky was blue that day". The Weekly Standard or Jewish Chronicle versions would be "George wrote that 'the sky was blue that day'", and the Wall Street Journal Europe version would be "George said that SlimVirgin 'observed that the sky was blue that day'". ← George ^talk 01:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, George. In the five years I've been editing WP, I don't think I've ever seen a story so badly written up by secondary sources. You expect to find occasional errors, but in this case, it's practically the default position. It's making the fact-checking very tedious. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 02:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I don't know any French but from what I understood, both sides got to sit in front of the video and tell the court what they are seeing. I understood that there were serious inconsistencies with the version of Enderlin, which fits with the "judge also noted 'inexplicable inconsistencies'" text. Karsenty was also giving his version to what he sees so the second version, i.e. "Judge Trebucq said that Mr. Karsenty 'observed'", fits as well. Both versions seem to agree that the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable. Otherwise he wouldn't have noted them as such but rather describe them in a more neutral manner. e.g. Karsenty noted the court as to what he considered to be inexplicable consistencies. I general, I don't think we should over interpret the primary sources but I can see that we have a bit of a clash with secondary sources who each read the source a little differently. Do we have any other sources on this issue... perhaps the decision should be made based on the majority of secondary sources rather than based on our own reading of the primary source. Thoughts/suggestions? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 03:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

"Both versions seem to agree that the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable." Hmm, no - one says the judge found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable, and the other says that that judge noted that Karsenty found the inconsistencies to be inexplicable. "Otherwise he wouldn't have noted them as such but rather describe them in a more neutral manner." Again, no. He noted that Karsenty argued the point. The judge wouldn't rephrase what someone else said when attributing it to them. ← George ^talk 04:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

According to your hypothesis on how we should read into the primary source text, there's still the issue that the judge saw inconsistencies. Like I said, the decision should be made based on the majority of secondary sources rather than based on our own reading of the primary source. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

If you don't like my translation, find another French translator, and they'll tell you the same thing - the judge noted that Karsenty observed inexplicable inconsistencies. How we resolve some secondary sources misreporting what the primary source says, and other secondary sources reporting it accurately, is another issue entirely. ← George ^talk 04:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be misreading errors into the secondary sources that I just disagree with. Your analysis of the primary source does not support that only Karsenty considered there to be inconsistencies. You'd assume as much just from the outcome of the trial (i.e. Karsenty being acquitted). No? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 04:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

J, where does it say in the transcript that the judge himself noted inconsistencies, as opposed to him noting that someone else noted them? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 06:01, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

From an ANI I see that some editors object to using all and every "Arab sources". Even al-Jazeera is objected to here where a very argumentative editor seems to try to shout down 6 other editors. It must be very difficult to write good articles in this atmosphere. 86.158.184.158 (talk) 13:07, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It's close to impossible. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin,

According to the current translation of this primary source, it would be deductive that the judge did not object to either the word 'inconsistencies' or to the word 'inexplicable' when both were presented to him. Its a matter of phrasing, though, we don't seem to have a professional translator and assumptions based on a primary source is something that I am advocating against. Could you clarify the actual status of secondary sources on this issue? What is the mainstream view and is there a way around the material that we're unsure/hypothesizing about.

Regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I understood your point, particularly "it would be deductive that the judge .." etc. My question was whether you have seen the judge say in the transcript that he himself noted inconsistencies regarding Enderlin. He seems to have made clear his views of the camerman's testimony, but not Enderlin's that I can see. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 05:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can use that source for writing something that contradicts reliable secondary sources. We've already seen where that approach led a couple editors here to to write in the article that multiple news outlets (supposedly) reported the story before it even occurred. I agree with you that there's a bit of a problem where two reliable sources contradict each other and my suggestion is to further investigate the mainstream view and also to see if there is a way around the material that we're unsure/hypothesizing about. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, I sympathise entirely with your comment that "I don't think I've ever seen a story so badly written up by secondary sources." This is a problem I've found as well; it was very apparent during the Karsenty case, when English-language secondary sources claimed that the court had ruled Enderlin's report a hoax when neither the court judgement nor the French-language reporting said any such thing. The reason, of course, is that neocon publications and hard-right writers like Melanie Phillips (who is known in UK media circles as "Mad Mel", with justification) report what they want to believe, not what actually happened. It's almost a case study in how ideologues distort factual reporting to create their own realities. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Death

I'm not sure for the reasoning behind the new "Died September 30, 2000, aged 12" template, but it seems to ignore all the recent pulications and concerns raised by fellow editors. Do explain (or consider reverting). Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 15:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

No. Read what SlimVirgin posted above at #The different positions. The view that he is not dead is clearly a tiny-minority position. This article has for a long time stated September 30, 2000 as the date of his death, and the removal of that death date would give undue weight to a fringe POV. We wouldn't delete the death date from Elvis's biography just because a few cranks think he's still alive and flipping burgers in Alabama or some such nonsense. The same principle applies here. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a tough call. Chris is wrong that it's a "tiny-minority position" and the comparison with the "Elvis is alive" rumors can I think fairly be said to lack merit or utility. That said, any decision about putting in a death date is essentially endorsing a particular POV. Maybe there's a creative way around it. IronDuke 20:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the viewpoint that Elvis is alive is certainly more common than the view that Muhammad al-Durrah is. // Liftarn (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

That he's not dead is still a minority view. Perhaps not quite "tiny minority," because there are mainstream journalists who hold that position, but it's still a marginal position. Any creative solution while the article has this title (i.e. where it's a bio) will make it look obvious that we're trying a workaround, and that would endorse the minority position. I suggested moving it to Mohammad al-Durrah affair, which is what they do on the French WP. I didn't suggest that in order to avoid the death-date issue, but because this isn't really a bio, and there's a trend away from using people's names to describe an event. If it were moved, we could remove the death date, but we couldn't reach an agreement on a new title, and I don't see it as a major issue. My thinking was that, if we ever get the article to FAC, and it's quite close, it would become an issue, but as things stand, it's not. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 20:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

What about Mohammad al-Durrah shooting? ← George ^talk 21:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd support moving the article to Mohammad al-Durrah affair. IronDuke 21:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

"Affair" is much too vague. It tells you absolutely nothing about the issue discussed in the article. It's a classic weasel word and Wikipedia:Words to avoid rejects it: "[Affair] should not be used in article titles on current affairs, except in historical cases where the term is widely used by reputable historical sources." That is clearly not the case here. "Shooting" is more specific and therefore preferable. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

WTA is just a style guideline. If it helps us make the article more NPOV, then it's easily ignored. "Shooting" would be worse than what we have now. IronDuke 21:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Again, nobody, not even the fruitcake fringe, denies that there actually was a shooting, so there is no problem with maintaining NPOV with the term "shooting". You're also overlooking the POV component of the term "affair". As WP:WTA says, "The words scandal, affair, and -gate are often used in journalism to describe a controversial episode or in politics to discredit opponents. They typically imply wrongdoing or a point of view." Using "affair" sidelines the mainstream POV that there actually was a shooting in favour of the minority conspiracy theory POV. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

IronDuke - Does anyone actually suggest that there was no shooting at all? I've seen that some contend that the boy wasn't killed, and some suggest that the Palestinians shot him, but I haven't seen anyone claim that the Palestinians used some Hollywood-level special effects to create bullet holes (and the corresponding sounds of gunfire) in the video. ← George ^talk 22:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, no one suggests there was no shooting at all. But the term Mohammad al-Durrah shooting strongly implies the boy was shot. And the event is controversial, so I think affair is the right word, AFATG. And again, I don't generally feel style guidelines trump NPOV. IronDuke 00:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I think we've been pretty clear as to why "affair" isn't acceptable, as it's synonymous with "scandal". I'd still favor Mohammad al-Durrah shooting until someone can come up with a better suggestion. ← George ^talk 00:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You're right that NPOV is the primary consideration, which is why "affair" must be rejected for the reason that George mentions. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

George, simply reiterating that you made a point does not address mine. If it would help, I, too, could simply restate my premise as though it were automatically true. The only argument (aside from naked assertion) advanced here is WTA. I've explained why that's irrelevant. IronDuke 23:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is denying that shooting took place between the IDF and Palestinians that day, at the junction. But certainly there are quite a few notable sources denying that there was any shooting of the al-Duras, so changing the title to something along the lines of Mohammad al-Durrah shooting is a bad idea. I don't think a convincing case has been made against the use of "affair". There are numerous sources that describe this incident using that term, and the incident is clearly controversial. Millmoss (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I would be against any title with the word "shooting" in it including (unless people were very persuasive), "alleged shooting." IronDuke 23:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Which reliable sources are saying there was no shooting of Jamal and/or Muhammad? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 23:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The ones that say this event was staged, or likely staged. Those include Ha'aretz, and the ones Jaakobu listed below - IHT, Daily Telegraph, Jewish Press,etc... Millmoss (talk) 00:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Can you show me where Ha'aretz or The Daily Telegraph say it was staged? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Ha'artez says it here: "Court backs claim that al-Dura killing was staged", "[The court] backed Karsenty's claim that the station and its Middle East correspondent had broadcast a staged report" - [5]. The Daily Telegraph report, which Jaakobu references is in the "Sources" section, and says "Mohammed al-Durra footage may have been a hoax"; "Court judgment supports view it was a hoax"; "[The video] revealed staged battle scenes, rehearsed ambulance evacuations - but nothing to substantiate the toxic television report. No shots were seen coming from the Israeli position, no bullets were shown striking the boy, no blood was seen on the father’s shirt, though he was said to have cradled his eviscerated son in his arms, and the boy is seen to move, even to look conspiratorially at the television camera, when he is supposed to have been dead." [6] Millmoss (talk) 17:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

But that's the newspapers reporting that the court said it -- and the court didn't say it. (Note, too, that it's not The Daily Telegraph). These are examples of the poor reporting this case has received. But regardless of that, the newspapers are not themselves backing that view. What I asked you for was an example of a reliable source that is clearly supportive of the view that there was no shooting of the father and son at all, not one that mistakenly reports what someone else did or didn't say. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 17:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

It actually is the Daily Telegraph, according to the byline, and it does say it is a hoax, or a likely hoax, when it describes the content of the video, not that that this is what the court says. Millmoss (talk) 18:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

It's the Australian Telegraph, and I don't understand your last point. The articles are reporting what they think the court said. Look, there is no reliable source who supports the idea that there was no shooting at all. Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah is therefore the title that makes most sense. It steers us away from the bio, which is good because we don't have enough information about the boy to justify a bio. It avoids "affair," which two editors argue implies there's a scandal. And it avoids the issue of whether anyone died. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 18:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The byline says "The Daily Telegraph". If your point is that it is the Australian DT , rather than the British DT, you may be correct, but what difference this makes is not clear at all. Simply asserting that "there is no reliable source who supports the idea that there was no shooting at all" is unlikely to convince me, as such an assertion is contradicted by evidence presented: The DT article for one, is not 'reporting what they think the court said' - it is using its own words to describe the video as a hoax, and is contents as not containing any evidence of shooting. The DT article is also not the only one making that claim - numerous reliable sources, many of them listed in the "Sources" section, make that claim. It is true that there aren't any sources that support the idea that there was no shooting that day, at that location, but there are certainly sources that say the AL-Duras were not shot. Millmoss (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts: SlimVirign gave a reasoning to her edit as well as a suggestion towards a workaround that won't be a very obvious one. ChrisO gave and explanation that affair is too much of a synonym for scandal and promotes a POV. On the other hand, IronDuke stated that 'shooting' implies that the boy was shot (something that is heavily debated by the sources). In the sense of the arguments raised, I'm not sure that I am leaning towards any of the suggestions and I would like to see if there are, possibly more arguments/compromise suggestions that could be made. In any event, the newly added death stamp is a bit of a problem on its own and we need to find something that we can all agree on. Do we have any other articles of a similar nature/relevant policies that we can get inspiration from? Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The date of death isn't "newly added". It's been in the article for at least two years, if you look back in the history. The only new addition in that regard is the summary template. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the summary template makes a disfference that recent sources (and a couple editors) disagree with because it seems to pull the article in the direction that the initial reports were supposedly correct. Do we have any other articles of a similar nature/relevant policies that we can get inspiration from to possibly resolve this issue in long term fashion? Further content based arguements might help us come to a more communal resolution. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 20:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting the sources. Have you looked at what SlimVirgin wrote above? "Most of the English-language media writing about it now would support the third position" [i.e. "he was shot and killed but we don't know who fired the shots"]. That's not simply "initial sources"; she's talking about what sources are saying now. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I spotted in an ANI that some editors seek to wiki-lawyer and use only fringe sources, while fighting tooth-and-nail to reject Reliable Sources. Here a case involving al-Jazeera where a very argumentative editor tries to shout down 6 other editors. It must be very difficult to write good articles in this atmosphere. 86.158.184.158 (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Didn't you make that point already on this talk page a few days ago? Yes, it does make things unnecessarily difficult, but I've found that editors who try to shout down other editors tend to find themselves being ignored. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

As a workaround, I've removed the person infobox, with the date of birth and death, and replaced it with the historical event box, which just gives the date of the event. I've also rewritten the first sentence to make the article about the shooting of them both, which avoids the need to give a date of birth and death, and I've tweaked the rest of the text accordingly. We could now move the title to Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, if that's wanted. Is this an improvement? SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 01:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that's a reasonable compromise. By the way, I've just added a few lines concerning Jamal's injuries from some France 2 footage dated October 1st, 2000, along with a screen grab - though I doubt it will do much to convince the "all Arabs are liars" brigade. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The move was premature - there does not seem to be consensus for it. Please undo it. Millmoss (talk) 20:11, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I've not seen any valid arguments against it, and SlimVirgin has already recast the article's first paragraph to reflect it. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I've made several of them, right above, as has IronDuke. Although he has not explicitly stated so, I would assume Jaakobu is opposed to this new title as well. It is clear there is no consensus for this move, so your action was premature. Kindly undo it while the discussion is ongoing. Millmoss (talk) 21:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

This whole discussion makes no sense. Look, there are many possible explanations for what happened that day, but there are only two basic possibilities for what is shown on the video and what sources describe. Either (a) someone, somewhere shot something in the general vicinity of the al-Durrahs, or (b) the incident was not only staged, but the video was edited using Hollywood-esque special effects to add gunfire and bullet holes. I've seen nobody claim the latter. Maybe it was staged by "Palestinian snipers", or maybe he was killed by a "Palestinian bullet" - I personally have no idea, but even those things do not conflict with an article title that says there was a shooting. We're not titling this Israeli shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, or Palestinian shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah, we're only saying that by all accounts someone, somewhere shot something in their general vicinity. ← George ^talk 21:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

When you call it "Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah" you are saying that they were shot - which is a point that is very much in dispute, and is certainly not evident in the video. Saying they were shot is different from saying there was shooting in their vicinity. If you want to title it September 30, 2000 Gaza shooting incident that would be fine with me. Millmoss (talk) 22:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there were multiple "shooting incidents" that day. It should probably be Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah shooting (similar to my original suggestion) instead of Shooting of Jamal and Muhammad al-Durrah. The latter implies the two were shot, while the former can mean that there were shots fired at or near them, which may or may not have hit them. ← George ^talk 22:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any consensus for this move at all. By my count, there are three for it, three against (someone leap in and correct me if I'm wrong). If I'm not mistaken, controversial page moves must have consensus before being moved. Slim, would you mind undoing this until we have some sort of agreement? IronDuke 23:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC) Actually, make that 3-2. Sigh. Nevertheless, no consensus that I can see. IronDuke 03:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

ID, the idea is to get this article to FA status. We therefore have to find a title that's accurate and that reflects the contents. "Affair" smacks of scandal, the boy's name is inappropriate because it's not a bio, and the one we'd normally use in these circumstances -- Death of -- you'd object to. The current one is a compromise. I've been bending over backwards, actually, to make this article as neutral as I can, but it seems no matter how far I bend, it's not far enough. What we can't do is give credence to the right-wing Israeli POV that this was a hoax. We've included it, and we've removed the death date from the lead by changing it from a bio to an event article. That's goes quite far in the direction you and J have wanted. We can't go much further without it tipping too far. Remember that the alternative views are minority ones, the hoax view especially. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 04:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, it looks like Millmoss was blocked, then unblocked, then reblocked again for being a sockpuppet of NoCal100 and LoverOfTheRussianQueen. I don't know if they'll be a part of this discussion going forward. ← George ^talk 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Can't say I'm surprised. That was clearly not a new user account. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Note:

I believe the second documentary just came out and that it wasn't yet aired in English anywhere. It makes a fair assessment that there would be more voices that support the ' original report was false and the scene could have been staged ' theory than there are at this point in time - and at a glance, I'm not sure these voices are in a minority (see Daily Telegraph and IHT below). With respect to the recent name talks, the video shows that the wall behind them was shot at so the new title isn't horrible -- but, the actual incident is very much unclear to (what seems to be) the majority of recent mainstream publications. I feel as though several editors concluded what the mainstream media says based on preconceptions and without seriously looking at what it actually says. I can understand how its easy to get carried away in reading what fits one's perspective on events but (and then complaining about the pains of bending backwards), despite that, I (actually) still have a hard time accepting the previous misrepresentations of sources and poor logic in regards to "proving" one theory over the other and the (glaring) disregard for reliable secondary sources (incivility was an issue as well). In the respect of "bending backwards", I just don't see it as there is currently a very humble mention of the (what might be and actually seems to be) majority recent view (i.e. ' original report was false and the scene could have been staged '). In fact, the article's lead treads around and doesn't even mention the main points, that the initial allegation (which was dubbed as a 'modern blood libel') against Israel was shot down by multiple reputable investigators... there is some apologetic phrasing that maybe maybe maybe (...maybe) Palestinians shot him "or that it remains unclear whether the boy died" (<- the latter is not notable enough for the lead IMHO), but nothing about Israel being stated as being most probably not guilty (the most glaring point). The current structure should also mention that after an initial acceptance of the Palestinian report, multiple reputable sources changed their perspective. From what I understand two focal points for this were the finding out that Palestinians, Talal Abu Rahmah included, routinely acted scenes out at the Netzarim junction -- supported by multiple sources, including Charles Enderlin. The second focal point for a change in media perspective was in the wake of the "raw" material France 2 presented and the successful appeal. Both notes (i.e. Not Israeli bullets, change of historical perspective) should be noted in a respectable manner and without prejudiced conclusions as to how reliable sources supposedly misunderstood the court's verdict. My suggestion for moving on in a balanced manner -- and without any theories towards the backwards elasticity of human perspectives -- is to forget what we think we know and make an actual analysis of the current reliable sources.

p.s. SlimVirign, your above comment amounts to offensive commentary -- i.e. conflating Americans, Germen, French, and other journalists and investigators with 'right-wing Israelis'. I'd hate seeing a thought pattern that is not based on sources and I repeat my request[7] that you refactor these comments.

With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:55, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Generic source review

I picked, without prejudice, the first ten on the list of recent sources:

1. The Daily Telegraph - "it now seems that what we saw was not what actually happened.", "infamous hoax"
2. Marianne (magazine) - I can't read French.
3. Columbia Journalism Review - "the ‘official’ version of the event could not be true", "[not] enough evidence for the even more damning positive indictment [i.e. blood libel’ purposes]", "[Israel:] events of that day were essentially staged", "the tapes will probably show that the Israeli soldiers did not kill the boy, and that the cause of his death was either unclear or the result of a Palestinian bullet."
4. The Blitz - "as it turns out, the entire incident was staged; a fake", "far more likely that Palestinian snipers “martyred” the boy to advance their cause"
5. International Herald Tribune/New York Times? - "debate seethes about whether the ghastly televised footage of Mohammed al-Duri was genuine, misinterpreted or ... artfully staged", "[footage] does not clearly show the child's death.", "no definitive scene that showed that the child truly died.", "not convinced that the particular scene was staged, but only that ... [cut agony scene] ... does not exist."", "[France 2:] no one can say for certain who killed him, Palestinians or Israelis.",
6. The Jewish Press - "apparently dying", "footage Enderlin said was too graphic and terrible to view does not even exist. It has also been confirmed that the Israelis could not have shot the boy or his father from their positions. Apparently there was no corpse, no autopsy, and no funeral. Nor was there any blood where the boy was allegedly killed.", "[Nidra Poller:] staged battle scenes, false injuries and comical ambulance evacuations reinforces the possibility that the (very brief and spliced together) al-Dura scene, too, was staged"
7. Philadelphia Bulletin - ... will continue tomorrow.

I'm hoping that my review of the sources would be accepted as neutral/thorough but I'm open to queries/suggestion. I've not yet finished the reivew and as such, have not yet made any assertions/conclusions. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

How is reviewing sources from a list that was purposely cherry picked to support a particular view either neutral or thorough? ← George ^talk 08:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Heyo George,

I've put some considerable time in fully shortening the views presented in the sources, which are recent, mainstream publications about the Al-Durrah case. I can't see much point in the complaint that they are cherry picked since they are from a fairly large collection of mainstream and wiki-reliable sources. If you would like to introduce a list of recent publications that give different perspectives, I have no special objection to that. However, my question was about the way I presented the sources and not about if you like these mainstream sources or not. We seem to have some minor agreement here (due to general disagreement) about moving in the less assertive direction. I was trying to help people have a better perspective on what reliable sources say by giving allowing a fast review on the first ten (arbitrarily chosen). My time is quite limited these days and I will finish this list (if there is merit to it) as soon as possible.

Regards, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

George, Jaak has asked for specific comments regarding specific sources. If you have no opinion, you needn't post. If you do, by all means address them. IronDuke 23:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually no, he didn't "ask" for anything; he said he was open to "queries/suggestions". My query was how he could describe his methodology as "neutral/thorough". Watch the incivility. ← George ^talk 00:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that'd be a form of asking. I can take you through why a relatively obvious point is true if you need me to, but I'll assume for now you don't. There wasn't a particle of incivility to my post of course; ironically, your falsely accusing me of it is itself uncivil. And I note again, you have made no substantive points regarding Jaak's sources. IronDuke 00:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I consider statements meant to discourage other editors from contributing, such as "If you have no opinion, you needn't post", to be generally unhelpful and incivil in tone. Jaakobou asked for queries; I replied with a question asking how the methodology he described was either neutral or thorough, given that he's sampling a non-thorough, non-neutral set of data points. ← George ^talk 21:32, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Your reply, which did not address the specific sources Jaak had posted, was combative. If it had added to the discussion while being combative, I might have let it alone, but it did not. I find it curious that you take such a tone, and yet have strong feelings when it comes to others who you feel have not been sufficiently saccharine in their replies to you. As you continue to ignore the substance of what Jaak has posted, I don't really see the point of continuing this thread. IronDuke 23:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Clarification: I am still leaning towards neither of the suggestions and I would like to see if there are, possibly more arguments/compromise suggestions that could be made. I don't see the current re-title as a long term acceptable solution. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 23:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In response to your reply to me above (which makes what you're trying to do much clearer), I don't think that this will be a fruitful approach. If you're specifically objecting to the term "shooting", you'll probably need to identify what sources say that neither the Israelis nor Palestinians shot at the al-Durrahs (note that a shooting can have occurred regardless of who fired the shots, and regardless of if the bullets actually hit the al-Durrahs). If you're just thinking out loud, trying to figure out a counterproposal for the title, that's certainly fine. It might be better to do it in your own userpage sandbox, but that's entirely up to you. I'm not particularly tied to this title, but just remember to cite as many reliable sources as you can find that support whatever title you end up proposing. Cheers. ← George ^talk 08:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Ref request

Can we have a link to the Canal+, April 24, 2008 ref? And this can't be correct: "In their eyes, Charles Enderlin would be a falsified of actuality." SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Chris, I'm moving this here for now. The right section for it would be at the end, in the impact section, where we say how various people have received things. But in the meantime, we need a link and a good translation, and we also need to decide whether this is the best source for that particular view.

The French television channel Canal+ described al-Durrah as "an unbearable symbol in the eyes of certain radical pro-Israelis. Thanks to the [World Wide] Web, they will get to question the authenticity of the France journalist [Enderlin]. Muhammad al-Durrah was not dead, his father was not injured, Muhammad was alive. In their eyes, Charles Enderlin would be a falsified of actuality."

SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

"Falsified" is a typo on my part - sorry. It should be "falsifier". The lines in question are: "Un symbole insupportable aux yeux de certains radicaux pro-israéliens. Grâce au Web, ils vont réussir à mettre en doute l'authenticité du reportage du journaliste de France 2 . Mohammed al-Dura ne serait pas mort, son père n'aurait pas été blessé, Mohammed serait vivant. A leurs yeux, Charles Enderlin serait un falsificateur de l'actualité." I'm not sure if it's on the web, but I have a transcript of the Canal+ documentary. They visited Gaza and re-interviewed all of the participants, so it's a valuable source. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Okay, if they did a proper investigation, it's a good source. I'll work it into the impact section. Enderlin also said something about this being a product of the Israeli right-wing, so I'll try to find that too. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 22:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, why are you introducing a conspiracy theory into the "incident as initially reported" section? That destroys the point of the section, since it's not remotely contemporary. The subsequent conspiracy theorising should be kept in its own section. I don't see any point in selectively adding a counterpoint to one element of the original reporting, particularly as the conspiracy theorists have counterpoints to virtually every element. You're risking opening the door to the addition of any number of conspiracy theorist counterpoints. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:43, 5 November 2009 (UTC)