Talk:Ogre

This is such a general term, stretching back hundreds of years. Do we really need to use a picture of Shrek? I mean, I love the film, but using a contemporary fictional character to describe an ancient myth seems a little bizarre.--64.9.55.232 14:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Another picture would be welcome. Just using what we have, I assume. Jake 19:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But that section of the article was about ogres in modern fiction, and I think a picture of Shrek belongs there. CS

This section isn't very convincing. It reads like its from the D&D monster manual I used as a kid. The connection with trolls and other such seems to be pure speculation and editorializing. How about some actual references to the usage of the word "ogre" in literature or documented myth? What culture / mythology is this term really from? What basis do we have for relating it to trolls or other such mythical creatures of other countries other than it being some vague kind of evil bestial humanoid (maybe speculation trying to interconnecting such mythical beings from various cultures should be a seperate article).

Beautiful Ogres?

In a recent discussion with someone over ogres (long story involving National Novel Writing Month), I remembered that I've seen ogres portrayed at least once as being heartbreakingly perfectly beautiful creatures (Dragonlance, primarily the short story where Raistlin runs into one), and at least two times where they were given a beautifully hypnotic voice (Ella Enchanted and the Tamora Pierce books), although I don't remember the appearance. Is there a basis in legend for this? I haven't turned anything up with a quick googling, but that never really means much given how much loose information there is out there and how Google tends to bring up the most popular answers only. -Fuzzy 21:51, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Those would be more appropriate to the Wikipedia articles on irony. Tarchon 21:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Addition to Piers Anthony section

I think it was The Color of Her Panties where it was established that ogres in Xanth choose to rhyme rather than having it be part of their nature, and that they typically drop the rhymes when out of the public eye. Okra Ogre pointed it out IIRC. Added a spoiler tag because really, it's not that common of information until fairly late in the series. -Fuzzy 14:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Yeah but, in another one they established that people only _hear_ ogres as rhyming, when in actuality they aren't, as a kind of.. they said it was a person's prejudices influencing what they hear... and that if you didn't expect them to rhyme, they wouldn't. Definite continuity gaffe, which Xanth is unfortunately frought with.

Removal of Oni notices

The latest edit, by an IP address, removed all mention of the Oni as well as a picture of one. I'm going to revert it for now, but I am of course interested in people's feedback.

Disambiguation and Primary Definition

Since there already exists a disambiguation page, I would like to remove all mention of non-mythical ogres in this article, save for a broad mentioning of its metaphorical usage. I would also like to revamp the the main definition section, adding more academic content and moving some of the current content to subsections like Ogres in Various Cultures or Ogres in Various Fairy Tales. Whatever seems most appropriate. Does anyone foresee a problem with this? Thank you! MarkBuckles 08:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I support cleaning up the page and moving the pop culture/gaming refs to the dab page, with a possible general mention on this page. If you feel the edits may be contentious, perhaps you can post a draft of the proposed edits on a subpage before adding them to the article? --Muchness 09:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I have created a new version of this page at Ogre/Revision. I've added a broader definition referenced from Britannica and reworked the entire page. Mythology and folklore references now have their own section. Ogres in modern games is reduced to a comment and a reference to the other extensive pages on the subject. Ogre as title or name is removed. The discussion of its metaphorically usage is maintained in the main article body and the other items cited all have other pages linked from the disambiguation page. I've added some more scholarly titles to the list of ogres in modern fiction, as well as a references section. Please let me know what you think. We can revise it and then post the new page. --MarkBuckles 15:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to have a new main picture, possibly from a painting, rather than a picture of a Japanese oni. Thoughts? MarkBuckles 15:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be a good idea. An oni is not an ogre. "Ogre" is a translation sometimes used for a Japanese concept known in Japanese as "oni". This is a common thing that many wikipedia contributors do, which is to equate legendary figures from totally different cultures just because some translator decided it would be a handy equivalence. That's why articles like this always have lists of different irrelevant things that various contributors claim to be ogres, gnomes, or whatever the article is about (trolls comes to mind in this case - if a troll was the same thing as a ogre, it would be called an ogre). If I decide to translate "oni" as "fried bananas" that doesn't make them the same thing. There should be a general principle that unless a source actually labels a legendary/mythological figure by the same name or an etymologically related form, then it shouldn't be listed as a type of that figure. If somebody wants to create an article on the "the big anthropoid monster archetype" and list oni, ogres, trolls, cyclopses, etc. as types of big anthropoid monsters, that would make more sense than having 20 different articles that all say that their subjects are versions of each other, as is the case now. Tarchon 21:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Revamped page

Hearing no dissent, I'll go ahead and post the new page. New pic to come as well. -MarkBuckles 15:06, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

You've done an excellent job of reorganizing and improving the page; however, I'm concerned that the current wording of the lead section is too close to the Britannica article, to the point that it's bordering on copyright violation. For reference:

• EB: Ogre feminine ogress a hideous giant represented in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings.
• WP: An ogre (feminine: ogress) is a hideous and gigantic monster often represented in fairy tales and folklore as feeding on human beings.

• EB: The word gained popularity from its use in the late 17th century by Charles Perrault, the author of Contes de ma mère l'oye (Tales of Mother Goose).
• WP: The word gained popularity from its use in the late 17th century by Charles Perrault, the author of Contes de ma mère l'oye (Tales of Mother Goose).

• EB: Since then, ogres have appeared in many works, including “Tom Thumb”; “Hansel and Gretel,” where the witch is a type of ogre because she intends to eat the children; and “Little Red Riding Hood,” where the wolf resembles an ogre.
• WP: Since then, ogres have appeared in many works of literature, including Tom Thumb; Hansel and Gretel where the witch is a type of ogre because she intends to eat the children; and Little Red Riding Hood, where the wolf resembles an ogre.

• EB: The Cyclops of myth and heroic literature who devours humans is a form of ogre.
• WP: The Cyclops of myth and heroic literature who devours humans is a form of ogre.

I think we need to reword the lead so that doesn't reproduce passages from the EB article word-for-word, and consider removing the claim that the witch, the wolf and the cyclops are types of ogre (which strikes me as original research on EB's part). --Muchness 16:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm still looking into finding some more actual scholarly articles on ogres. Let me know if you know of anything. And you may be right about the original research too. I had never heard of that particular interpretation before although the eating humans part seems to be fairly standard. Will revamp this more soon. Let me see if I can reword those particular sections for the time being. -MarkBuckles 19:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've trimmed the lead. The Charles Perrault section may not be necessary there at all since it's covered in etymology, unless someone thinks otherwise. I've also cut out the part about wolves and witches being forms of ogres, at least until such time as I find another source which corroborates that reading. The opening sentence is still very similar, though it does capture the essence. Should we change that too? -MarkBuckles 19:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Curupira removal

I don't see how the curupira is in any way related to the ogre. They have nothing in common aside from being mythical creatures. I think it should be removed.

Ogres around the world

The short passage on ogres in Carol Rose's book gives the following list of ogres in other cultures:

• Atcen of the Montagnais Native Canadians
• Dzoavits of the Shoshone Native American People
• Skatene of the Choctaw Native American People
• Drake of the Gypsy community of the Balkan states
• Kinderfresser in the folklore of Germany
• the Trolls of Scandinavia
• the Gruagach of Scotland
• Miodhchaoin in the Celtic legends of Ireland
• Tom Dockin in the folklore of England
• Bobalicón in the folklore of Spain
• Ravagio and Tourmentine in the literature of France
• Sasabonsam in the legends of the Tschwi and Ashanti people of West Africa
• Kojin in the legends of Japan

I don't know how this should be incorporated into the article. I'm thinking there should be separate sections for the European ogre and ogres in other cultures. Also, perhaps a small bit of information could be found on each of these other ogres, so we're not just copying Rose's list. I don't have time to do this, as I have another article I need to be working on. I do however plan to create a new imand "Ogres in modern games" should be subsections for an "Ogres in pop culture section." Hope this info is helpful! ~ Sarabi1701 15:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Vulgarity was removed

I'm not quite sure who did it, but I removed the profanity and vulgarity from this page. I.E. "ugly and smells like shit" or something of that sort. I restored the page to it's previous condition before it was vandalized. As I recall, Wikipedia is supposed to be a tool of learning. adam 04:12, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Languages

Are there no articles about ogres in other languages? I noticed there are no language-links in the left hand column and found it wierd, especially because this article in English is quite long.

the differences of the races

could somebody tell me what are the differences between troll, orcs, and ogres?? they are so confusing. . . what i think is that ogres are the most stupid folks between them ; some trolls may be the second but some of them are not, they have a little brothership with their clan and some of them are good in fighting and battle ; and orcs are not stupid at all, they are barbarian and monstrous(just like the three of them), and they have quite a humanity, they care about the world, and of course brotherhood in their families and clans . .125.164.137.237 (talk) 13:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC) how do ya think? most of them i really made up myself Jcupu (talk) 13:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be talking about fantasy ogres, orcs, and trolls. For fantasy worlds, the differences between the three creatures are up to the author. Tolkien's orcs might be different from Wizards of the Coast's orcs, etc. In the real world, ogres were invented for fairy tales, orcs were (mostly) invented by J.R.R. Tolkien, and trolls are from Norse mythology. — Dulcem (talk) 01:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Expand

Can we please expand this article? It's not very large, and it does not say anything about ogres in the past. Where did they come from? Who invented them? How were they originally described?

170.211.171.126 (talk) 17:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Why is there a link...

...to Homo Heidelbergensis? Without some explanation, this seems very odd. Ethan Mitchell (talk) 15:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to edit a post on the talk page, but it's being used as a sandbox. Ethan Mitchell (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

What does "cartoonish Scottish accent" mean?

A cartoon is a drawing or animation, how is it relevent to the sound of Mr Myers voice? I would have changed it to "comic Scottish accent" (which I suspect the author itended) but that's subjective, I'm Scottish and it doesn't sound that far wrong to me. Either way the accent is not relevent to an entry on Ogres.92.237.4.111 (talk) 11:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Benjamin Cardozo

Hello Jetinhouston! Benjamin Cardozo was not Hispanic - his grandparents were not from the Iberian Peninsula, but from the USA, having origin in Jewish Sephardi families that went to America prior to independence from the UK and the Nederlands. They probably had Portuguese origins further back, but that is not proven. And, anyway, Portuguese are not Hispanic! Cheers. The Ogre (talk) 17:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

You are wrong, and most Portuguese would consider it an insult to be called Hispanics, since they are not Spanish speakers. Anyway... PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE MESSAGE IN MY USER PAGE!! I have a Talk page for that. Thank you The Ogre (talk) 19:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well Ogre, as someone that is PORTUGUGES! I do not consider it an insult. Refer to me as a Latino is insulting! My family does consider themselves Hispanic, and so does the US Government. My mothers family was told that there "origin" is the Iberian Peninsula, thus "Hispanic", even though they are from Portugal. I suggest you read the definition of Hispanic on this site. If you want to keep narrowing it, some groups are now even claiming that people from Spain are not Hispanic, that it only applies to people from the Americas. So, your right, Cordozo was not Hispanic if you keep changing the definition to exclude him. But, the real "historical" term would apply to him. But, then all you PC re-writers of history could not jump on the Obama PC world bandwagon. Cheers!!!!!