Talk:Racism in Poland

Removed fringe claim that Poland was like Nazi Germany

I have removed a fringe claim that Poland was like Nazi Germany.Even if some author would claim that, that claim is such extreme that it would require numerous strong sources. While no doubt some discrimination of Jews did happen, this view is not shared by mainstream research(and we shouldn't forget that Jewish parties were represented in Polish parliament, Poland had Jewish ministers, generals and so forth). --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Any basis for the removal other than WP:IDONTLIKE? This was published in The Journal of Modern History, cited some 80 times, by a mainstream historian - William W. Hagen - tenured at a top-tier university. The source quite clearly states "Even though in various ways the Polish regime in fact fell short of fascism, the cumulative effects on the Polish Jews of its hostile policies, as well as of Endek aggression and the consequences of demographic growth amid still widespread economic depression, were threatening them by 1939 with conditions comparable to those to which the German Jews had been reduced". There's nothing particularly unusual with the comparison of Poland in 1939 (prior to September) to Germany in 1936. Icewhiz (talk) 14:38, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I am reading the source now and so far it seems attributing this claim was very, very far fatched, Cohen at every point makes reservation statements about comparing the two, makes statements that not all was similar, and some of the claims attributed to him are quotes from interviews he presents, not actuall statement of facts.There are numerous examples on how Poland was different from Germany etc.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Content removed in diff, supported by: "In 1938 OZON came to dominate the Polish parliament, where it began drafting anti-Jewish laws of the kind adopted in Germany between 1933 and 1935.

Odd removal (of bank credit discrimination) and fact tag - diff - clearly supported by citation: "Already since the early 1920s the Polish government had systematically excluded the Jews from employment in the public sector, from obtaining licenses to operate businesses in the broad sphere of the government-regulated or governmentmonopolized economy, and from receiving any considerable government bank credits. In the 1930s the realm of official and semiofficial discrimination expanded to encompass limits on Jewish export firms, on Jewish artisan shops, on ritual slaughtering (which was a major source of tax income for Jewish communal self-government), on admission to medical practice and the bar, on membership in nationwide business associations, on access to universitypreparatory secondary education and university-level student organizations, and, increasingly, on university admission itself. In 1921-22 some 25 percent of Polish university students were Jewish, but in 1938-39 their proportion had fallen to 8 percent..Icewhiz (talk) 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

I am citing Hagen, not Cohen. And it isn't attributed - Hagen in The Journal of Modern History is stating this in his own voice. Certainly there were particular points of difference between Polish and Nazi legislation, however Hagen makes his conclusion in that the result was similar. Icewhiz (talk) 14:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Stating Poland was similar to Nazi Germany is obviously a fringe extreme view that can't be put as off hand fact in the article. We could put it in article about Hagen's views.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:50, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Please do mind WP:BLPTALK, and provide sources for your claims. I provided a top-notch source here. Are you contesting the reliability of the The Journal of Modern History? Should we take this to RSN? Icewhiz (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Yeh, after looking at this source, I agree with Icewhiz: it can be used here. The only question: how exactly the content should be summarized, and what other sources tell about it to comply with WP:NPOV. Just saying, "hey, it was just like Nazi Germany" would be wrong; that sounds like an anti-Polish propaganda. One should describe specifics per multiple RS (so, yes, the "specifics" per quotation by Icewhiz above I think can be included). I can see that the challenged edit was "The Polish parliament then passed anti-Jewish legislation similar to Anti-Jewish legislation in pre-war Nazi Germany". Yes, that claim does look questionable and unnecessary, given that next phrase explains what exactly was the law in Poland at at this time, and it was indeed anti-Jewish. Hence the removal by Molobo seem to be legitimate in this case [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 19:41, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Polish / Romani / Jewish equivalence or lack thereof under Nazi rule

I reverted this, as the cited source in the article - USHMM - says "In contrast to Nazi genocidal policy that targeted all of Poland's 3.3 million Jewish men, women, and children for destruction, Nazi plans for the Polish Catholic majority focused on the murder or suppression of political, religious, and intellectual leaders. This policy had two aims: first, to prevent Polish elites from organizing resistance or from ever regrouping into a governing class; second, to exploit Poland's leaderless, less educated majority of peasants and workers as unskilled laborers in agriculture and industry.". The notion that the the Nazis genocided Poles is a distinct minority view in WWII research - and in any event is not comparable to the Nazi genocide of the Jewish and Roma populations. Should we present such a minority view in the article, it should be clearly attributed (and sourced!) and with the majority view clearly presented as well. Icewhiz (talk) 16:07, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

It is distinguished as "cultural genocide". Staszek Lem (talk) 17:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

That could be worked in (as well as forced labor, deportations, killing of elites, ...) - however that is different from complete physical destruction. I will also note (in relation to the lede) that this is not a Holocaust article - but an article on racism in Poland.Icewhiz (talk) 17:39, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Your revert went far beyond just hair splitting over whether extermination is extermination or not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Nice of you to show up to the talk page. Indeed, I also removed OR and content attributed to Davis that rather badly misrepresented him. I pointed all this out in rather detailed edit summaries. Icewhiz (talk) 02:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Isn't Generalplan Ost available in Washington? It's not cultural genocide.Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

"Jews Poles and Gypsies are on the same inferior level" stated the nazi-German directive No. 1306. 81.190.44.233 (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

15th century racism?

I have removed a chunk of information that seems to be about religious strife-it doesn't seem to be in relation towards racism(which would be strange for 15th century)--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:00, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Antisemitism is generally considered to be a form of racism. Icewhiz (talk) 02:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I restored this. There are sources, for example [2]. My very best wishes (talk) 18:40, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

"Serial genocide"

"Serial genocide" - What is this? In the internets I read: "“Serial” genocide perpetrators slip under the radar as much now as genocide did relative to individual murder prior to Lemkin" implying serial genocide is not the same as the UN-standard definition of genocide. I am asking because this term is used in recent change by Molobo. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:05, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

No attacks against Jews

Poland and Hungary are the most safe places for Jews in Europe. You don't inform about it quoting professional anti-anti-Semites, who earn their money researching anti-Semitism. Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Bawer Aondo-Akaa is an expert

https://www.polityka.pl/tygodnikpolityka/spoleczenstwo/1691250,1,bawer-aondo-akaa-broni-honoru-polski.read

Dr Bawer Aondo-Akaa is a physically handicapped Afro-Pole, who cooperates with Polish nationalists. He is obviously more commpetent than professional "researchers". He participates in Independence Marches, describeed sometimes as fascists and racist.Xx236 (talk) 07:32, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Jews in particular, that have faced hostility and suspicion.

Unsourced manipulation. The mentioned Polish Tatars were respected soldiers. The Jews isolated themselves from the society. The situation of the Jews was however apparently acceptable, they didn't emigrate to Western Europe. Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

1926

The Jews section doesn't inform that Sanacja acted pro-Jewish in 1926. So the text is obviously biased.Xx236 (talk) 07:54, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Jedwabne

According to Intimate violence http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/?GCOI=80140102719170

Intimate Violence is a novel social-scientific explanation of ethnic violence and the Holocaust. It locates the roots of violence in efforts to maintain Polish and Ukrainian dominance rather than in anti-Semitic hatred or revenge for communism. Please learn.Xx236 (talk) 07:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

sources please

from the 1920s the Polish government excluded Jews from receiving government bank credits, public sector employment, and obtaining business licenses - the phrase proves ignorance. The situation changed in 1926, so what is from the 1920s - till 1926 or after 1926?

Jews had Jewish banks. Did the banks give creditis to non-Jews without any limitations?Xx236 (talk) 10:40, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Some Jews were licensed to sell cigarettes till about 1935. https://tvnwarszawa.tvn24.pl/informacje,news,z-pozolklych-stron-starych-gazet-odtworzyla-zydowska-warszawe,226363.html Xx236 (talk) 10:48, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

This is from - [3] in The Journal of Modern History - "Already since the early 1920s the Polish government had systematically excluded the Jews from employment in the public sector, from obtaining licenses to operate businesses in the broad sphere of the government-regulated or governmentmonopolized economy, and from receiving any considerable government bank credits. In the 1930s the realm of official and semiofficial discrimination expanded to encompass limits on Jewish export firms, on Jewish artisan shops, on ritual slaughtering (which was a major source of tax income for Jewish communal self-government), on admission to medical practice and the bar, on membership in nationwide business associations, on access to universitypreparatory secondary education and university-level student organizations, and, increasingly, on university admission itself. In 1921-22 some 25 percent of Polish university students were Jewish, but in 1938-39 their proportion had fallen to 8 percent.8". The source doesn't draw any distinction regarding the 1926 coup, and only lists growing repression in the 1930s. Icewhiz (talk) 10:57, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I have already written - situation changed in 1926 and you rewrite the trash. The source doesn't draw any distinction regarding the 1926 coup, - exactly, does the author even know what is Poland?Xx236 (talk) 11:14, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

This work has received the Chester Penn Higby Prize for best article in the Journal of Modern History in a two-year period (conferred by the Modern European History Section of the American Historical Association). - facts aren't important, bashing Poles is important. Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

You asked for sources - I provided a source for the sentence (which is cited in the article) + supporting quote from source. I suggest you take up your reservations with William W. Hagen and the The Journal of Modern History. Or provide comparable sources, quality wise, that makes a distinction regarding Piłsudski's regime. Piłsudski may have been favorable to the Jews vis-a-vis the Endek alternative, this doesn't mean measures ceased. Icewhiz (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, you don't have any idea about Polish Jews. I don't see any reason to teach you, you are able to read.Xx236 (talk) 11:28, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/polish-chief-rabbi-meets-descendants-of-interwar-leader/ Even "Times of Israel" doesn't support you. Xx236 (talk) 11:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Racism in the United States doesn't inform about Numerus clausus#United States. Double standards. Xx236 (talk) 11:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

And..... ? That Piłsudski was and is seen as an opponent to much darker currents in Poland is well known - well evidenced by events after his death as well as support during his lifetime. Do you have actual sources on the topic at hand? Icewhiz (talk) 11:42, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Does the page say anything good about living Piłsudski? No, it doesn't. It proves that the text is biased. Xx236 (talk) 11:47, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees obtained Polish citizenship. Such generosity caused social tensions. Xx236 (talk) 10:54, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

The Polish parliament then drafted

There was no such laws in Poland. There is basic difference between complaining, drafting, dreaming, which is typical in Poland, and implementing like in mentioned countries.Xx236 (talk) 11:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC) Which exactly laws were drafted? Certainly not so many like in mentioned countries. It's propaganda.Xx236 (talk) 11:12, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Some blatant original research

Hey User:François Robere, can you please point out where in David Engle's source he says "Antisemitism in World War II Poland was not rare" as you inserted into the article [4]? This seems to be your own WP:SYNTH conclusion.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:59, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Well - Engel does write that " the governments which had ruled Poland since Marshal Jozef Pilsudski's 1926 coup d'etat, including those which, following Pilsudski's death in May 1935, had pursued a policy of officially sanctioned antisemitism" on page 1. I don't see quite where rare appears - I would assume FR paraphrases this - however there is no lack of sources discussing antisemitism in pre-war Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 07:02, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, is there some reason for why you are are responding to a question posed to Francois Robere? Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I have this page watchlisted, and you removed a whole lot of other content besides Engel. Please refrain from casting WP:ASPERSIONS on article talk pages. Icewhiz (talk) 09:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I have not cast any "aspersions", I simply asked a question. Please stop making false accusations on talk pages. And I'm sure you have the page watchlisted, but the question wasn't addressed at you and given the well documented fact of you and FR always agreeing with each other, your sudden appearance here to, once again, support him, only serves to inflame the situation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:42, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Both Karski and Rowecki (to which that is the introduction) state it pretty clearly. There are plenty of scholarly sources on that as well, as you know. François Robere (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

No they don't. At least not in the source you provided. If there is some OTHER source, then provide that source, rather than engage in your own WP:SYNTH and WP:OR.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

They literally say "antisemitism is widespread now", what are you talking about? François Robere (talk) 09:33, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This quote from Karski does NOT say "antisemitism is widespread now". What are YOU talking about? Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Rowecki uses that exact term, while Karski writes that the "[the Jewish question] is akin a narrow bridge upon which the Germans and a large portion of Polish society are finding agreement". Later he writes on "wide segments of the Polish populace, among whom antisemitism has by no means decreased". Both statements were redacted from the final report. François Robere (talk) 21:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

VM - I intend to restore much of your blanket reversion in diff unless you provide a clear rationale for rejection of material published in:

1. The Journal of Modern History..
2. In the Shadow of the Polish Eagle: The Poles, the Holocaust and Beyond, Palgrave Macmillan
3. Engel in Jewish Social Studies.
4. The Politics of Retribution in Europe: World War II and Its Aftermath, Princeton University Press
5. When Light Pierced the Darkness: Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland. Oxford University Press

I will further note that the presentation (which you restored in our voice) of Żydokomuna (Jewish Bolshevism), as anything other than a pejorative stereotype, is unacceptable in terms of mainstream research. The content you removed is clearly on-topic, from mainstream academic sources, in regards to antisemtism (or anti-Jewish racism) in Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 08:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This was not a blanket revert. The rationale is well articulated in edit summary.

The reliability of sources is not at issue, it's the misrepresentation of sources and use of WP:CHERRYPICKED quotes that is the problem. This has been repeatedly explained to you.

The problem with the sentence about Zydokomuna is not of what voice it's presented it in but rather the claim that this was about wartime antisemitism, when it clearly refers to post war period. Likewise, while it's a conspiracy and a stereotype you can't attribute it to "Polish historians" as if they endorsed it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

And, I should note, with two quotes from eminent wartime sources: Gen. Rowecki, head of the Home Army; and Jan Karski, Home Army spy and GIE envoy. François Robere (talk) 09:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

We avoid block quotes as they are non-encyclopedic, especially from primary sources. The other problem, is the little original research that YOU came up with and added in front of the Karski quote. You still haven't explained how this text is based on the source. It seems you invented it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:ASPERSIONS, Marek. François Robere (talk) 21:27, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

"We avoid block quotes as they are non-encyclopedic" <-- NOT an "aspersion". "especially from primary sources" <-- NOT an "aspersion". "original research that YOU came up with and added in front of the Karski quote" <-- NOT an "aspersion", especially since it's a 100% accurate description of what you did. "You still haven't explained how this text is based on the source" <-- NOT an "aspersion". Etc.

You can cry 'aspersions!!!!!!' all you want, but what this is simply me pointing out that you made up a line of text (original research) which was not in the source nor based on it. And it's me pointing out that we avoid block quotes. Please don't try to misportray the situation.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Hagen

I reverted as Hagen quite clearly states that:

1. Endeks redoubled their efforts in 1935: "Following Pilsudski's death in 1935, the Endeks and other right-wing radicals greatly intensified the anti-Jewish boycott movement they had long advocated. Between 1935 and 1937 aggressive boycott actions led to widespread violence and, in a number of cases, to pogroms, mainly in the smaller towns, in which by 1939 many hundreds of Jews had been killed and wounded, while still more were plundered of their property and driven from their homes and settlements.
2. Hagen also states the resolution in question passed in 1937 and not 1935: "By 1937, the National Party (Stronnictwo Narodowe), as the Endek electoral organization was then called, could pass resolutions declaring that it considered "the Jews to be its chief enemy" and that "its main aim and duty must be to remove the Jews from all spheres of social, economic, and cultural life in Poland"
3. The last sentence ia supported by "Even though in various ways the Polish regime in fact fell short of fascism, the cumulative effects on the Polish Jews of its hostile policies, as well as of Endek aggression and the consequences of demographic growth amid still widespread economic depression, were threatening them by 1939 with conditions comparable to those to which the German Jews had been reduced".

The reverted version presented 1937 events as 1935 events in a manner not supported by the cited source.Icewhiz (talk) 20:31, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

1. No one's disputing this. What is disputed is writing this up as if the Endeks were part of the government and their "resolutions" had some kind of binding legal force.
2. Clarified that.
3. Yeah, when you omit the "fell short of fascism" - and Hagen emphasizes throughout the article that the situation in Poland WAS different than Nazi Germany - and only include the second part you are blatantly misrepresenting the source. Thank you for illustrating the WP:TEND nature of your edit.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:59, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

1. Endeks were not in government, and I think this was rather clear given a "government response" to them. 3. If your sole issue is a missing - "the Polish regime fell short of fascism" - I have no objection to an addition along those lines.Icewhiz (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

1. Exactly, so why is the text being presented as if their resolutions had some kind of legal standing? It's not clear. 3. No that is not the sole issue, this just illustrates how the source is being misrepresented. You clip the quote at the beginning to make it look like something it's not. You cherry pick a sentence out of a source to make it look like something it's not.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Hagen's conclusion of the situation is not cherrypicked. Any other issues besides "the Polish regime fell short of fascism"?Icewhiz (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

It sure is. The clipping of the quote is an illustrative example.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:44, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:ONUS for inclusion is on you, especially since you're misrepresenting the source. Please stop trying to cram this into the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:30, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

VM - if you are objecting to content from The Journal of Modern History - you need to do better. Nothing was misrepresented in what you removed in diff. "the Polish regime fell short of fascism" was added following your objection. The source is crystal clear - "Even though in various ways the Polish regime in fact fell short of fascism, the cumulative effects on the Polish Jews of its hostile policies, as well as of Endek aggression and the consequences of demographic growth amid still widespread economic depression, were threatening them by 1939 with conditions comparable to those to which the German Jews had been reduced".. Now - what precisely is misrepresented here, and what is your objection now given that your previous object on the omission of "fell short of fascism" has been addressed? Icewhiz (talk) 08:34, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

As has been explained numerous time, the objection is NOT to the Journal of Modern History. Stop constructing false straw-men. The objection is to the misrepresentation of the source. The clipping of the quote. And ignoring the fact that in numerous places in the article the author says that the situation in Germany and Poland WAS different.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:50, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Blanket revert

diff - reverted content based on "Unpublished working paper, tertiary sources. Undue" - which seems incorrect on the face of it in regards to several sources. I'm opening a source by source discussion below.Icewhiz (talk) 08:16, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Cooper

Please state clearly the objection to In the Shadow of the Polish Eagle: The Poles, the Holocaust and Beyond, by L.Cooper. Published by Palgrave Macmillan. This is an academic secondary source that addresses antisemtism in Poland at length. Icewhiz (talk) 08:18, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

It's actually a non-academic WP:TERTIARY source which has been cherry picked. Also, is there any chance that you'd let Francois Robere defend his edits rather than once again jumping in to speak for them? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

FR didn't add this, and please see WP:OWN. The book is clearly a secondary source on the topic of Poles and the Holocaust (not that being tertiary would preclude it). The author, at the time time, was a senior research associate at the University of Melbourne - a major academic institution. The book itself was published by Palgrave Macmillan as an academic imprint. This clearly meets WP:SCHOLARSHIP. Icewhiz (talk) 08:31, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

The quote, in contex:

Research into this period of Polish–Jewish relations, the documentary evidence and personal testimonies, indicate that the virus of anti-Semitism, which invaded the Polish body and which propagated itself during the pre-Second World War years, had not disappeared after the September 1939 disaster. Polish society entered the Second World War and the Nazi occupation already poisoned by anti-Semitic propaganda. The anti-Jewish policy of the Nazis had encountered fertile ground in Poland. During the Nazi anti-Jewish terror, the dominant contention among the Poles was ‘that it is good that the Jewish problem is being solved by the Germans’, and that ‘at least the Germans are doing something good for us’ (Ros, p. 18).

— Cooper, there, p. 102

He then quotes Karski and Rowecki, which are PRIMARY as you noted,[5] making this SECONDARY. François Robere (talk) 13:05, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

That's clearly a tertiary source, the "(Ros, p. 18)" makes it clear. It's also cherry picked and undue.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:47, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

So when I quoted Karski (from Engel) and Rowecki (from Gross), by your definition they were both secondary. Why did you object on grounds of PRIMARY? François Robere (talk) 20:37, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Tec

Please state clearly the objection to When Light Pierced the Darkness: Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland by Tec, published by Oxford University Press. This is a secondary academic source by an expert.Icewhiz (talk) 08:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Nechama Tec is a Professor Emerita of Sociology at UConn, and is widely cited by scholars in the field. François Robere (talk) 20:41, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Winstone

Please state clearly the objection to The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi rule in Poland under the General Government, published by Tauris. Again - secondary academic source. Icewhiz (talk) 08:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Martin Winstone is a researcher and education officer at the UK-based Holocaust Educational Trust. He's published two books; this one won accolades from scholars such as Adam Zamoyski, Jan T. Gross and David Cesarani. François Robere (talk) 20:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

References

CRP

Please state clearly the objection to the paper published by the University of Warsaw Center for Research on Prejudice. Icewhiz (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

It's an unpublished, non-peer reviewed source (aren't you and Francois Robere always talking about how we should use only "peer reviewed sources" - why the double standards?) Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:30, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Of course it's published - how do you think I found it? And it was conducted by researchers at a respectable research center at the university of Warsaw. François Robere (talk) 10:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

What was it published in? "Found it on the internet" /= "published".Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:46, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

The survey results were published as a series of reports on the center's U. Warsaw faculty of Psychology website, AFAICT with other publications relying on it (eg. this book, relying on the previous survey). François Robere (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

That's just a different way of saying that it's a unpublished working paper. And you're not citing the previous survey so what's your point? Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:55, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not a paper, it's a survey. The results are published online, the conclusions elsewhere. It's pretty standard. The only question is whether you trust the researchers behind it. François Robere (talk) 08:52, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I've added a source on the 2012 survey. Are you satisfied? François Robere (talk) 10:08, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Sources on Catholic church in Poland

In diff, VM removed content sourced to two books, stating that "not actually about Poland but about the Catholic Church in general" - which seems to be a case of IDIDNOTREADTHAT, as the sources clearly address the effects of Church led oppression in Poland - e.g. King - "It is not known how many Jew had established residence in Poland in the thirteenth century. That there were enough of them (it wouldn't have taken many) in the old Polish diocese, that of Gnizeno (Gnesen), to worry the Church fathers is evident from the following clause in canonical law as imposed by the Church Council of Breslau in 1266: ......Icewhiz (talk) 08:43, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah "old" diocese. If you actually read the source again (please assume good faith and avoid personal attacks) then it's clear that this was a concern of the Church generally. It just happened to coincide with the mass movement of Jews to Poland during this time. Was the clause specific to Poland? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:57, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

As this was clearly in the source - describing events in Poland - saying that your rationale was groundless in relation to what was written in the source - was not a personal attack. As for your claim that the Catholic church was antisemitic elsewhere - this does not change the relevance of this particular antisemitic act in Poland that sent the Jews of Poland into ghettos. Icewhiz (talk) 09:01, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Your claim that I didn't read the source was clearly a personal attack or at the very least failure to assume good faith. The source references a council which happened to be held in Breslau (Wroclaw) which involved German speaking clergy, and then proceeds to discuss a council which happened to be held in Vienna. It's not describing "events in Poland", it's describing events in Europe. The connection to the topic of this article is clearly tenuous. And you didn't answer the question. Was the clause specific to Poland? Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

It's also ... weird, to put it mildly, to claim that the Fourth Council of the Lateran (held in Rome) somehow constituted a "particular antisemitic act in Poland that sent the Jews of Poland into ghettos". Scratch that. It's not just weird. It's just plain wrong and loopy.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:10, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

In 1266 - Jews in Poland - were sent into ghettos. Both sources are crystal clear on this (and it is trivial to find additional sources here). Both are clearly cited and online - Wikipedia:Competence is required. These events, in Poland, were indeed related to wider antisemitic actions by the Catholic church during the period (which we cover in other articles) - that there was racism elsewhere outside of Poland - does not mean we'll exclude the same racism inside of Poland. Your line of arguement here - is akin to removing slavery from Racism in the United States as it was part of a wider Atlantic slave trade (which involved black slaves throughout the New world). Placing Jews in ghettos, in Poland, is clearly on-topic in this article.Icewhiz (talk) 09:32, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you seriously insisting that the Fourth Lateran Council constituted a "particular antisemitic act in Poland that sent the Jews of Poland into ghettos"????? The source under discussion says NOTHING like you claim. There's no "crystal clear" here. You can use that phrase for rhetorical effect all you want, but at the end of the day, it's just you who made it up. Stop misrepresenting sources. And if it is indeed "trivial to find additional sources here" then... let's see them. I really really really doubt that there's ANY source which attributes the decisions made in the 4th Lateran Council to "particular antisemitic act in Poland" (sic). Because that would be ridiculous.Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:03, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

(For sake of completeness, the Robert D. King source, not just the Malcolm Hay source, does not say anything like Icewhiz claims either. This is pretty egregious for Icewhiz to insist on)Volunteer Marek (talk) 10:06, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

The 1266 synod of Breslau implemented antisemitic church policy (specifically - the prior 1215 Lateran council) - in Poland. More sources - The Ghetto, Beyond Patriarchy: Jewish Fathers and Families. Covering the segregation of Jew,s in Poland, over hundreds of years is a rather central issue here. Icewhiz (talk) 10:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Your first source (aside from the fact that it's from a non-historian who's got some ahistorical nonsense in there and was published in 19TWENTY8) does NOT say "In 1266 - Jews in Poland - were sent into ghettos." Indeed it refers to the 15th century, and it's speaking about Europe in general. Your second source does not say it either (and it also refers to the 15th century).

None of the sources are "crystal clear" about what you claim they are. In fact, none of them actually say what you claim they say.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:15, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

The above might be suitable in article about antisemtism in Poland, but has little to do with racism.I think the content and content has gone way offtopic for this article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:58, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you support renaming the article "Prejudice in Poland", or starting "Antisemitism in Poland"? François Robere (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I thought about such article but I had a brief look and it seems that there isn't an article about Antisemitism in Germany, but rather redirect to History of Jews in Germany.It would be very weird to have one about Poland but not a German one.We should rather transfer information to History of Jews in Poland where it isn't supported by sources that it was connected to racism.Certainly writing about religious disputes in 13th century would be very far fetched to claim it was based on racial theory.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Actually, there is one for Germany, as there are for most other European countries (see here). François Robere (talk) 22:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Focus on Racism in Poland

Editors should remember that this page is about Racism not Anti-semitism. Racial antisemitism and religious antisemitism are both articles on Wikipedia. A lot of stuff being added is about religious anti-semitism --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you support renaming the article "Prejudice in Poland", or starting "Antisemitism in Poland"? François Robere (talk) 21:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Certainly a novel arguement for exclusing antisemitism (and anti-Muslim, as well as possibly additional content) - much of modern antisemitism in Poland is based on religion. I agree with FR that retitling this article to cover Prejudice in Poland would be a straightforward solution - however it seems to me from coverage as well as other "Racism in X" articles that religious hate is covered jointly with race based hate - e.g. Racism in the United Kingdom.Icewhiz (talk) 04:16, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm ambivalent about the general question of whether this falls within scope, but your quote is completely irrelevant and doesn't contribute anything to the conversation. Why are you posting it here?Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:33, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

I usually source assertions - for instance my assertion above that modern antisemitism is "one of the informal tenets of religiosity in current Poland". As for the claim that antisemitism, Islamophobia, and other hate should be in a "racism in X" article if the haters base their hate on religious grounds.... Well - that's really quite a novel argument that isn't aligned with projects norms in other articles on this topic nor with how "racism in X" is covered externally. Icewhiz (talk) 07:31, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Lol, oooooookay, if you say so. The point is that your "assertion" as well as your quote is irrelevant to the question being raised. It's just another gratuitous "look! The Poles are anti-semites!" indulgence of some sort.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:06, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:NPA please. As the assertion at the top of this section is that Polish antisemitism, as covered in RSes, doesn't belong in this article if religiously motivated then it bears mentioning that RSes on Polish antisemitism ascribe this to religiosity in modern Poland. Icewhiz (talk) 08:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Racism in Poland started during the times of partitions. When it first appeared in Poland, it was used against ethnic Poles. Therefore, this is a really important thing. Are we talking about racism in Poland, or racism of Poles against minorities??? 81.190.44.233 (talk) 10:45, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:OR. Plus, the article already mention discrimination against Jews as early as the 13th-16th centuries. François Robere (talk) 19:17, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Religious or racial discrimination? I believe it is very far fetched to claim discrimination was based on racial theories, rather than religious beliefs on 13th century.The article here is about racism after all.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, this is part of the existing content and you can't ignore it if you're trying to sort the article. François Robere (talk) 22:31, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, the stuff about general Catholic church anti-semitism in the 13th century Europe, def does not belong here, especially since the content is [[WP:SYNTH]esized and not supported by sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:15, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

The Jews were always a race and a religion apart.Slatersteven (talk) 12:52, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Islamophobia is not racism!

Islamophobia is not racism. Islam is not a race. This section should be deleted. Disagree? Discuss. 81.190.44.233 (talk) 11:56, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you support renaming the article "Prejudice in Poland", or starting "Islamophobia in Poland"?

The name "Prejudice in Poland" would be the worst solution possible, it would make the article too huge, as all the people in the world can be prejudiced to anyone or anything, even to an earring in somebody's nose. Islamophobia in Poland is a separate concept, as Islam in a religion, not race, so you cannot call someone who hates Muslims a racist, as Islam is a religion, not ethnicity or racial group. There are Slavic Muslims called Bosniaks who are South-Eastern Europeans but of Muslim faith. There are even many white converts to Islam in the UK, so someone who is white and and hates Muslims, also hated them! Race has nothing to do with Islamophobia. 81.190.44.233 (talk) 00:00, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@ User:François Robere - Why did you add islamophobia as racism, without reaching consensus? 89.231.49.21 (talk) 11:54, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

It's been in the article since May. Why did you remove it without reaching consensus? François Robere (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

It is widely seen as a form of racism.Slatersteven (talk) 12:17, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Since May? It seems you posted it there. It is seen as a form of racism? What's the definition of racism then? Is a white man who hates a white Muslim a racist? Explain. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 12:41, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Read these [[6]], [[7]], [[8]]. Its like when the Nazis railed against "Jewish science" or "Jewish art", they did not just target the Jews who "practiced" it, they target the culture as well (and anyone who practiced it, even if not Jewish). Its about attacking a non white culture, not just its adherents.Slatersteven (talk) 12:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

• Yes, targeting Jewish culture is obviously antisemitism. However, I would mostly agree with IP here. This is well described on our page Islamophobia and its Racism subsection. Obviously, a form of xenophobia and discrimination, this is an anti-religious sentiment. Yes, one can find sources arguing this should be viewed as racism, but they are in minority. For the same reason, the Crusades is a borderline info. I re-included it [9], but this is something debatable. My very best wishes (talk) 15:57, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

So is a Black Christian who hates all Muslims a racist? What "race" is he hating then? I'm so curious. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 16:38, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Possibly, it depends on what he hates, the religion or the dark skinned Turban wearers that hold it. Remember not all Muslims wear turbans, and not all people who wear turbans are Muslim, that does not stop them being labeled as Muslim (in terms of verbal abuse for example). It is a tad more complex then your questions suggest.Slatersteven (talk) 16:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

The truth is you are unable to defend your thesis, that's why your answer is ambigious and without any straighforward explanation. Islamophobia is not racism, islamophobia is hatred against islam and its believers, and that's it. You can officialy hate Islam but at the same time feel sympathy for people of color who are not Muslim. That's because Islam is a state of mind that some people consider dangerous, while the color of your skin is only your genes which do not affect your mind. Islamophobe hate those first, and a racist hates those second. You cannot call an islamophobe a racist because he might not even care about the person's race, all he hates is what he believes in. If he would care about the person's race, then he would be an islamophobe AND a racist, but those terms are separate! And don't compare islamophobia to antisemitism, because islamophobia is only about religion (Islam = religion), whereas anisemitism is mostly about ethnicity (Semitism = Semites = ethnicity). Antipolonism can be rather compared to antisemitism while you mention a tribe/ethnicity in the name of the "-ism". I personally knew some Black people prejudiced to Muslims because Muslims killed their families, I even knew an Arab girl who openly criticized Islam and insulted Muslims. Would you call such people racists? I don't think so. They are islamophobes, not racists. Now, if you want to label all Muslims as people of color, than you are a racist yourself. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 22:12, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

its odd then how often Islamophobes target people who are not Muslim based upon their skin colour [[10]], [[11] None of this is based upon their religion, so what is it based upon?.Slatersteven (talk) 13:12, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh yes, many Islamophobes are also racists, but it does not mean Islamophobia = racism (hence we have separate pages). My very best wishes (talk) 17:22, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Except that (as I have link to above) many say it is the same. It might be fairer to say Islamophobia is racism but not all Islamophobia are not racists. But then we can say that about white supremacists.Slatersteven (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I think this is well described here [12]. Islamophobia rightly belongs to Category:Anti-Islam sentiment which in turn belongs to Category:Religious discrimination. My very best wishes (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you support renaming the article "Prejudice in Poland", or starting "Religious intolerance in Poland"? François Robere (talk) 19:47, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I think you are really obsessed. How about Nazi zombies in Poland? My very best wishes (talk) 21:45, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

You claimed this does not belong in the article, so I'm asking what solution other than removal of sourced material would you support. Clearly we're not in the business of censorship, so you must have something in mind. François Robere (talk) 23:55, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

See Islamophobia in Poland. My very best wishes (talk) 01:13, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Ahh well thats different, as we have an article on this we really only need a see also here.Slatersteven (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Well - I created Islamophobia in Poland on 3 August 2019, splitting out from here (copying the content per WP:PRESERVE) after it was challenged. However, I have now re-added a short paragraph here as according to this journal article - [13] - "As such, the eruption of Islamophobic attitudes in Poland can be understood as part of a continuous trajectory of Othering and its alignment with racism" - Islamophobia in Poland is connected to racism. I'll note that several other journal article tie Islamophobia in Poland to racism / othering / xenophobia / etc. Icewhiz (talk) 13:48, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

As RS have made the link I think a brief mention and a link to the main article is fair.Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

There are plenty islamophobes in Poland who at the same time are anti-racist and love Black people whose families were murdered by Muslims in Africa and they had to escape. So? Would you label these Poles as racists? If yes, then your philosophy is so "tunnel-vision", and I will explain you why: If some of you consider islamophobia as racism just because it was invented by Arabs (who are people of color, but at the same time they are Caucasians and collaborated with Hitler), then according to your way of thinking anti-Christian sentiment qualifies as antisemitism because Jews invented it! 81.190.44.21 (talk) 23:29, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

many "talking heads" considered it a form of racism because it is often more about dress and skin colour then religion, as I pointed out people who are not Muslims are often targets. But I think this has run its course now, we are just going round in circles.Slatersteven (talk) 09:03, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Order of racism occurrence and ethnic groups

The User:François Robere is constantly changing the original order of the groups that were the victims of racism in Poland. [14] The order is based on chronology, as the first official occurrence of racism in Poland (not religious, but race-based discrimination) was during the age of partitions in 18th century. It does not matter that this racism was aimed at Poles themselves, as we are talking about racism in Poland, not racism of Poles against other groups.

As I see this French user is also engaged in many other topics concerning Poland, like Jan T. Gross. The user Francous Robere added some subjective anti-Polish claiming, that Poles killed more Jews than Germans, he placed it in the article as a possible fact: [15].

Therefore, User:François Robere, I want to discuss, what's your point in changing the original order of the groups, adding empty hyperlinks, and deleting sourced content in the article "Racism in Poland"? PS - User:Volunteer Marek - What do you think about this? 81.190.44.233 (talk) 23:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

This isn't "the original order", it's something you did today. At the moment the earliest events this article covers are date to the 13th century; you want chronology? Put that at the top.

In the meanwhile, avoid referring to editors' nationalities, and if you're intent on editing seriously consider opening an account. François Robere (talk) 23:56, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Please, refer to the racial prejudice, not religious and cultural prejudice. Polish people were never racially prejudiced to Jews in the early centuries. The only prejudice was cultural and possibly religious. Stop manipulating the facts. The first occurrence of racism in Poland was when Germans (Prussians), Austrians and Russians partitioned the country and treated Poles as second-class citizens. That's when it all started. 81.190.44.233 (talk) 00:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Does any of the sources to which this claim is attributed makes a reference to "race" rather than eg. nationality or ethnicity? François Robere (talk) 00:43, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

During centuries Jews from all over Europe were flooding Poland. They were escaping from antisemitic France, Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal, or Italy, and their aim was to live in Poland or Turkey, which were then seen as the most tolerant countries in Europe. In other countries Jews were persecuted and killed while in Poland at those times, Jews even obtained some special rights like the Statute of Kalisz. The situation didn't change for ages, as in the 17th and 18th century, Poland was considered a "Jewish heaven" - Paradisus Judaeorum, Jews even called Poland their "promised land". Now you claim, that Poland was racist against Jews in the early ages? Really? So why they would come to Poland on such a large scale, if it was such an antisemitism here as you say? At the times, when countries like England, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, and France were trading black slaves and killing people to establish their colonies, Poland not only had nothing to do with black slavery, but also was the most tolerant country in the whole Europe and welcomed Jews during centuries. After the World War II in the 1940s when Germans killed millions of Jewish people in Poland, after the tragic times of the 1950s and 1960s when Jewish communists like Roman Romkowski, Józef Różański, Salomon Morel, Jakub Berman, Anatol Fejgin, or Julia Brystiger, persecuted and sentenced to death many Polish war heroes like Witold Pilecki, after the hard time of communist oppression and therefore the rise of Polish anti-Semitic attitudes, today the emotions dropped, and Poland is once again starting to be considered the most safe place for Jews in the whole Europe. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 12:38, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOTAFORUM and this is off-topic. Can you answer the question, please? François Robere (talk) 15:26, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not offtopic, as I try to give you a clear view on the subject of antisemitism in Poland, as this is what interests you my friend and so I am trying to help you to understand it. Actually the answer to your question is inside my previous reply... But I will say it in other words: No, these sources provide no reliable evidence that there was any form of racial prejudice towards Jews present in Poland during the times when Jews flooded Poland while escaping from all across the antisemitic Europe. The term "racism" or "antisemitism" was something absolutely abstract to a Polish person back in the days, Poles never faught with nobody because of racial origin, but in later times there could be some cultural or religious tensions between Poles and Jews. It was never about racial background, but Jews on the other hand, in the early centuries would never let a non-Jewish Polish girl to marry a Jewish man, even if she would have an authentic will to convert to Judaism and embrace the Jewish culture - still the main obstacle was that her ethnicity is not Jewish, but Polish (and they claimed that in the Jewish family the mother of children must be of Jewish ethnicity, not Goyim - it's a pejorative term by the way)... then wouldn't you consider it as eugenics and racial prejudice against Polish people?... Answer it in your head my friend. However, the first time in Polish history when somebody actually became a "second-class" citizen in Poland because of ethnicity was during the partitions in the 18th century, when Poles became ethnically discriminated on their own land by the invaders. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Right. Now, can you answer the question? Does any of the sources to which this claim is attributed makes a reference to "race" rather than eg. nationality or ethnicity? François Robere (talk) 16:24, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Read carefully what I say because I've answered you twice, or make your question more precise. 89.231.49.21 (talk) 16:42, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

So you don't have sources that you can cite here? François Robere (talk) 17:32, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

The one who needs to provide sources is you, because as far as I remember, it's you who claim that racist attacks and attitudes were present in Poland since 13th century? By the way - why did you change the chronology without reaching the consensus? Why did you place the section "Ethnic Poles" as the last one after Roma and Black Africans, while it reaches 18th century? Where is the chronology then? 89.231.49.21 (talk) 21:44, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

We follow sources - most sources on racism in Poland cover racist actions by Poles against minorities. In the scope of WW2 - the German genocide of Jews and Roma is covered much more widely than their more limited actions against Poles. Given weight in sources, and given that racism against Poles in the past 100 years is mainly limited to WWII (and even then - after other groups) - Poles should appear last.Icewhiz (talk) 22:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

In the scope of WW2 - the German genocide of Jews and Roma is covered much more widely than their more limited actions against Poles.

The German genocide of Poles is widely covered by numerous sources. Poles were the largest group targetted by racism in Poland and it is standard form that minorities are described after the main group in a country.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:48, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Then present them. And do remember we've had this discussion before. François Robere (talk) 00:39, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

You made the following positive claim: The first occurrence of racism in Poland was when Germans (Prussians), Austrians and Russians partitioned the country and treated Poles as second-class citizens. That's when it all started. I asked several times whether you have sources to support it. You haven't presented any. I'm unconvinced. François Robere (talk) 00:39, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

@User talk:Icewhiz - The article is about racism in Poland and you wish to make it look like racism of Poles against minorities in Poland. Stop it. I agree with User:MyMoloboaccount - the order of the persecuted groups should be not only based on chronology, but also on the size of the group that the victims were a part of. And without any doubt, the largest group in Poland that was the target of racism were ethnic Poles themselves. Might seem abstract to someone from a western world who never was racially persecuted by the invaders in his own occupied country.

@User talk:François Robere - Think logically, it is you who has to provide sources, as Wikipedia requires sources to any information that is being presented. I claim that racism was unpresent in the early ages, so I don't need to give sources because if it was unpresent, then no sources about it exist. You, on the other hand, claim that racism (to be more concrete - antisemitism) was present in Poland since 13th century, and if you claim it was present, than it's you who needs to prove it to us, because if it was present, then the sources must be present too. If you can't do it, than all you do is trying to prove a WP:POINT which is contrary to Wikipedia policy. We're waiting for your sources then. And stop changing the article without a reason. 89.231.49.93 (talk) 12:57, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

In the mid-20th century, notable incidents of antisemitism in Poland included Jedwabne pogrom of 1941

I would have thought the notable incident would be German Holocaust in which millions died, but the article states only Jedwabne was notable... Really? --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 01:19, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

German...Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

This is a notable incident of antisemitic actions by Polish citizens - coupled with some 20 other sites at the same time. Icewhiz (talk) 19:36, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

The article is about Poland, which during German occupation was site of German made Holocaust, certainly more significant than Jedwabne alone.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:25, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

We have a whole article on the The Holocaust in Poland.Slatersteven (talk) 09:05, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Molobo's changes

1. Changing the ordering: two rationales have already been presented for an alternative order. I don't mind too much either way, but you should've discussed it here before making changes.
2. The suffering of Poles at German hands during WWII is undeniable, but the suggestion that Poles were systematically exterminated like Romani, Jews, homosexuals, and political and cultural dissenters is simply not true. What's more, sources that are cited to support it don't actually do so (I suggest reading more of Gellately than what was quoted here - you'll see it's not that simple). We've previously had this discussion regarding this section, and ended up with a concise, accurate and nuanced explanation; I tried to do the same here,[16] but obviously it's not enough for some editors, anonymous and otherwise.
3. I'm not sure what's the point of these [17][18] additions in the context of these (#Focus on Racism in Poland, #Islamophobia is not racism!, #Order of racism occurrence and ethnic groups and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Islamophobia, Antisemitism, and other religious hate in "racism in X" articles) discussions.
4. Why are you quoting from a bibliographical list? And why, if you're at it, not quote the next one in the list, that "discusses articles... in Piast, Polska Ludowa and Wyzwolenie... [dealing] with the necessity of keepign land in Polish hands... the responsibility of the Jews for alcoholism... [and] the belief that the Jews were not honest in trade"? That looks very relevant to this article.

François Robere (talk) 12:47, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

The ordering is out of line with mainstream coverage of the topic. Furthermore, the edit mixes oppression that was not based on racial lines (e.g. Germanization - or assimilating Poles into German society - is not a racist concept, nor is political suppression of dissidents) with those that were. Icewhiz (talk) 13:39, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I should note that, in response to other editors' efforts to get antisemitism and similar forms of prejudice excluded from this article on semantic grounds, I repeatedly asked two questions: First, if the material is not on-topic here, would the editor agree to renaming this article, or to move the material to an article of its own? My queries were mostly ignored, suggesting the prime motivation behind these proposals was to censor articles, not to reorganize them. Second (and more pertinent to your note), seeing how some editors suddenly became unusually rigorous regarding semantics, I asked whether sources support the assertion that early German 'anti-Polonism' was motivated by racism, rather than eg. nationalism or cultural prejudice. No sources were provided, suggesting that in the very least the three forms of prejudice stand on equal footing as far as this article is concerned. François Robere (talk) 15:15, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone asking to remove antisemitism from article-as long as it fits the topic.Racist based antisemitsm should stay, however claims that 13th century religious disputes were racist seem OR unless someone provides sources.

As to Germans motivated by racism towards Poles, multiple sources have been provided already, you need to check the article.

The structure was stable, if you want to change the order, you need to seek consensus first. Also nobody is using the source you quote above.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:50, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone asking to remove antisemitism from article At least three editors seem to have suggested it, including yourself: "editors should remember that this page is about Racism not Anti-semitism". And yes, I realize that's not necessarily what you meant.

unless someone provides sources I've provided just such a source in the NPOVN discussion.[19]

you need to check the article I've already checked the article and didn't find them convincing, that's why I'm asking you here.

The structure was stable Since when?

Also nobody is using the source you quote above Which? François Robere (talk) 23:21, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I've already checked the article and didn't find them convincing, You claimed they weren't provided. I am glad you changed your mind.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:22, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I asked here, and they weren't provided here. As for your new sources: I've reviewed all of them. Two notes before I tell you what I find: First, can you please start formatting your citations properly? It gives the impression that you're in a hurry and doesn't make it any easier following up on your work. Second, this is a difficult, charged and nuanced subject; we need to be sensitive, precise and rigorous, and use only the best-established sources. That's how I'm trying to handle it, and I hope others do too. The sources:

1. Genocide: The Systematic Killing of a People (ISBN 9780766033580) [20]: One of the few books that supports your claim, but I'm not actually sure who the writer is. She seems to be a prolific writer of popular books on a variety of subjects, with relatively few citations.[21][22] That's not the sort of source I would use here.
2. Trial report of Ulrich Freifelt [23]: Early post-war source, so WP:PRIMARY.
3. Genocide, Ethnonationalism, and the United Nations. Exploring the Causes of Mass Killing Since 1945 (ISBN 9780203116210) [24]: Can't access this. Quote?
4. [25]: Quote doesn't support your assertion
5. [26]: Quote doesn't support your assertion.
6. Polish-German Relations: The Miracle of Reconciliation (ISBN 9783847402909) [27]: States what is quoted. Also states that the genocide was directed "mostly, but not exclusively, against Jews."
7. The Holocaust as Colonial Genocide: Hitler's 'Indian Wars' in the 'Wild East'" (ISBN 9781137391698)) [28]: States what is quoted. Elaborates on the on the Nazi perception of Jews, and states that Jews and Roma were the Nazis' "main" targets
8. [29]: Quote doesn't support your assertion.
9. The Concept of Genocide in the Trials of Nazi Criminals before the Polish Supreme National Tribunal (in ISBN 9788293081135) [30]: A passing note in a chapter intro of a legal treatise on post-War jurisprudence? WP:PRIMARY, WP:DUE...

So it's basically just two sources that actually support your assertion, or parts of it. One final note: some editors have been promoting an exclusionary narrative that places Polish suffering above everyone else's, and uses it to justify Poles' treatment of minorities during, and after the war. Your edit suggests the same tendency - placing the Polish "genocide" ahead of the Holocaust and Porajmos,[31] despite the fact that virtually all sources agree the latter were the Nazis' primary targets, and that the Jews became nearly extinct. I again suggest reverting to my own phrasing,[32] which is both inclusive, carefully worded, and well-supported by sources. François Robere (talk) 14:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)