Talk:Rupert Sheldrake

Context Matters

"Sheldrake proposes that it is responsible for "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms".[7]

Has anyone actually read the source connected to this quote in the lead? This particular verbiage is in a paragraph where Sheldrake is comically remarking on how he imagines his detractors see his work. Its place here is out of context and implies this is how Sheldrake himself describes MR. If we're going to have a quote from Sheldrake about MR, it should be representative of how he describes it. Personally, I don't think we need yet another quote (we have four in just one paragraph), so I say we junk it altogether since it contributes little to explain either the hypothesis of MR or Sheldrake himself. If someone has an illuminating quote they feel is necessary to illustrate MR, I'm all ears, but this one is out of context and misleading. The Cap'n (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The quote is needed because it connects morphic resonance to telepathy and "the sense of being stared at". Without it, the reader is left wondering why Sheldrake is studying those things.

I find nothing comedic about the quote, and it looks accurate. For example in a reader participation section of Dogs That Know, Sheldrake says, "Please tell us about your own experiences that suggest telepathic or other invisible interconnections."

Could you please explain why you think it is misleading? Please fill in the blanks.

• "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of _____, while the correct idea is _____.
• "collective memories within species" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of _____, while the correct idea is _____.

As you know, this issue has been discussed before. The original reason the (now-blocked) user gave for removing the quote was that it came from Michael Shermer, which turned out to be incorrect. While this feels like proxying for a blocked user, I shall assume this is not the case, but there should be a compelling reason to rehash the issue. vzaak 21:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it's the result of making an understandable but regrettable mistake resolving several thoughts that go from the basic statement "Sheldrake says X", which is cited and is obviously consistent with his published writings, to "Sheldrake says X, which is obviously not supported by current scientific thinking"; added to "statements that are not supported by current scientific thinking are stupid", leading to "Sheldrake says X, which is obviously not supported by current scientific thinking and this is a stupid statement". We then boil this down by taking out the middle to "Sheldrake is being stupid", add that to "saying someone is a BLP violation", more brain ruminations and we get to the Captain's marvellous conclusion: "Wikipedia cannot say Sheldrake says X because that's a BLP violation." This completely ignores the sources provided, involves much thought ruminations in the middle, and reaches the wishful thinking that (1) this is a negative statement (it isn't - it's a neutral, cited statement), because the point of the game if you're a self-appointed BLP warrior is to create BLP violations out of nothing, apparently. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:53, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Barney the barney barney, you appear to fundamentally misunderstand my point. My "marvellous conclusion" is not that the quote is a negative violation of BLP, nor am I a "self-appointed BLP warrior" trying "to create BLP violations out of nothing". This is not, or at least was not intended to be, a controversial, partisan battle (nor did I mention anything about BLP). I'm pointing out that a quote in the lead is unhelpful and that to remove it would make the article more informative, flow better and avoid misconstructions. I opened this post with what I feel was a reasonable issue, respectfully presented and asking for feedback. How exactly does that provoke insults?

As far as vzaak is concerned, I do not think it is a quote from Michael Shermer, but feel it should be removed for the reasons I listed above and will reiterate now. It is misleading as a quote, redundant and an example of excessive quoting that does not improve the article.

Here is the context of that quote:

But the idea of mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms and of collective memories within species didn't go down too well with my colleagues in the science labs. Not that they were aggressively hostile; they just made fun of it. Whenever I said something like, "I've just got to go and make a telephone call," they said, "Ha, ha, why bother? Do it by morphic resonance!"

It is inaccurate in that nowhere else in this article does Sheldrake describe MR as telepathic (it's irrelevant whether he's used in an interview, quotes should accurately reflect their particular source), and the context indicates he uses the term as what his opponents believe. If everything in this block of text is to be taken as Sheldrake's literal expression, we might as well include quotes describing MR as capable of replacing telephones.

As far as needing the quote to establish that Sheldrake includes telepathy and stared-at aspects, those concepts are expressed in the very next next sentence. How do the two following sentences offer distinct points?

• Sheldrake proposes that it is responsible for "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms".
• His advocacy of the idea encompasses paranormal subjects such as telepathy and "the sense of being stared at"[7][8]

They seem completely redundant to me, which is reason enough to get rid of the quote even if it wasn't misleading. Using this quote to argue that his purpose in that source was to describe MR as telepathy is contextually inaccurate, though stating the scientific community views his arguments as such is not. That's why the second statement is acceptable but the quote is not. Besides, why are so many quotes are necessary in the lead?

Lastly, much as I appreciate the veiled accusation, my reasons for wanting to delete this quotation do not stem from proxying. My goals are to establish a balanced, NPOV article that is succinct, accurate and informs rather than advocates. I have had a longstanding issue with the formatting of this article which I feel I have represented consistently, before, during and after Tumbleman's blocking. I would point out that it is possible for a person to disagree with the content of this page without being a troll, proxy, sockpuppet or fringe proponent. The prevalence of such charges have been and remain a source of concern for me. The Cap'n (talk) 22:53, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"nowhere else in this article does Sheldrake describe MR as telepathic" -- this isn't true. The article says, "Sheldrake suggests that such interspecies telepathy is a real phenomenon and that morphic resonance is responsible for it".

It's a simple fact that Sheldrake believes that morphic resonance is responsible for telepathy-type interconnections between organisms. Have you looked at Dogs That Know? It's all about that. I gave an example quote from the book.

Until the following blanks are filled in, I just don't have any idea what you are talking about, sorry.

• "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of _____, while the correct idea is _____.
• "collective memories within species" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of _____, while the correct idea is _____.

The two phrases you gave aren't redundant. The first describes the reason for the second. We can leave it to the reader to puzzle, "WTF? What does telepathy have to do with it? Morphic resonance is telepathy? What?" Or we can explain it. vzaak 23:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree with Barney and vzaak. The Cap'n doesn't seem to realize that Sheldrake believes in telepathic chickens. However, I replaced the sentence with another one with a clearer reference. Does that give similar information or should I find something else? It's not like there's a shortage of potential references. Dingo1729 (talk) 04:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Cap'n is right that it is a bit redundant. Further revisions should be made to eliminate such redundancy.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Dingo, I appreciate the attempt, but the new text doesn't quite match the source. In order to use that source we need to explain morphic fields, a complexity that has been purposefully omitted from the lead. (Also note that people are animals :) It has happened before that the original quote was replaced with other text, and accuracy was lost in that case as well. There is really no reason to avoid the quote. There has never been a cabal or conspiracy here, yet that idea seems remain present with some. vzaak 09:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm OK with the original quote if you want to restore it. I was just trying to provide a clearer ref for telepathy (rather than telepathy-type interconnections). Can you really separate morphic fields from morphic resonance? They seem inextricably intertwined. But if you want to revert my edit, I won't complain. Dingo1729 (talk) 16:56, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

We aren't separating morphic fields from morphic resonance, we're just eliding such detail from the lead while maintaining parity with the sources. Also, "telepathy-type interconnections" succinctly encompasses telepathy and "the sense of being stared at". I'll wait a bit for Askahrc to reply. vzaak 17:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Either way I think the point about redundancy is valid. To say it is responsible for "telepathy-type interconnections" and then say the idea encompasses telepathy is a tad redundant.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 18:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe to the ear, but "telepathy-type interconnections" doesn't necessarily imply telepathy. Sheldrake could have decided that it fell short of "conventional" telepathy, yet allowing "the sense of being stared at". vzaak 19:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected regarding Sheldrake's use of telepathy in the source, though I still agree with Devil's Advocate that it's redundant and unhelpful given the multitude of other quotes and paraphrases that say virtually the same thing. If we're arguing that Sheldrake has clearly linked MR and telepathy (I'll look into that a bit deeper so I can weigh in with a properly informed opinion), then we don't need "telepathy-like," while if we're saying he delineates the two we shouldn't use the sources that say "telepathy." Either way, I really don't think we needed a fourth quote in one paragraph to help provide a broad summary.

As far as a cabal or conspiracy, I would point out that I have not accused anyone of being part of such, but simply referenced that certain (seemingly routine) editing approaches tend to draw disproportionately hostile reactions. I'm not sure I can remember the specifics, but I seem to recall someone who proposed trimming down excessive quotes that they thought were not informative, then was promptly implied to be a proxy violating WP policies and called some choice names. Without insinuating some nefarious League of Evil Wikipedia Editors, I think that trend is a recurring one and a problem that has stifled work on this page. The Cap'n (talk) 15:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Askahrc, you came here claiming that "telepathy-type interconnections" is misleading. It looks like you are conceding that this is not the case (otherwise, please fill in the blanks I provided above). The argument is as incomprehensible now as it was when the blocked user made it. Please don't rehash old discussions like this without good reason.

Now you have moved on to a point about redundancy. But you see, that wasn't your original claim, and had you made the redundancy point from the beginning then there wouldn't be an issue. It's perhaps the most trivial point to grace this talk page.

"Telepathy-type interconnections" is fine description appropriate for the lead, where we should elide technical details about the distinction between morphogenetic fields, morphic fields, and morphic resonance.

I have restored the quote and made a change that addresses the redundancy concern. vzaak 19:11, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

First off, the point about redundancy was in my first post, in which I asked why we need four quotes working to explain MR in one paragraph. I then brought it up again in my reply, and in every statement since then. Also, redundant statements in the introduction to an encyclopedic entry are not trivial. It is not trivial to have redundant-type statements in an encyclopedia entry's introduction. Examples of things that are not trivial problems in the introduction to an encyclopedic entry includes redundant statements.

I still do feel that using that quote from the citation is not representative of what the broader source was stating. As a side note, however, I don't agree with the principle that if I do not fill in the blanks to your statement my arguments are null & void. With all due respect, this is not your article, it's all of ours. Your decision that the quote is a "fine description appropriate for the lead" is just as valid as my decision to question whether that is true. I feel confident I have established over the years that I am not a troll, and if I have concerns about the quality of the article I will bring them up for examination by consensus, in accordance with WP policies. I'm not going to cross-reference my concerns with everything Tumbleman brought up months ago, both because these are issues I have with the current article, and because the fact that he was blocked doesn't mean that all of the topics he ever took issue with are now verboten.

For the sake of argument, though, here's my responses to your blanks:

• "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of __telepathy being the defining characteristic of MR, or that this quote comes from Sheldrake's personal definition of the concept_, while the correct idea is __using that very source to either include Sheldrake's stated definition or his personal paraphrasing__.
• "collective memories within species" -- The quote suggests the wrong idea of _____, while the correct idea is _____. I don't know why this was asked. I never challenged this statement, tried to delete it or suggested its replacement. It's fine as is.

As always I look forward to everyone's feedback. I will continue to work to improve WP and assume we're all working toward the same end and can do so civilly. The Cap'n (talk) 00:39, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The point about "telepathy" being redundant was resolved with my last edit. I didn't say it was trivial -- I said it was perhaps the most trivial point to grace this talk page. It's the kind of thing that someone just goes ahead and changes, and that is what I have done.

Deleting the essential information that connects morphic resonance to telepathy is another matter.

Regarding the blanks, the source says (bold added),

But the idea of mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms and of collective memories within species didn't go down too well with my colleagues in the science labs.

You say "collective memories within species" is fine. So do I. It's a correct and accurate phrase. It is Sheldrake's own quote, his own characterization of the concept. So why does this not apply to the phrase immediately preceding the quote, in the same sentence?

You say "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" suggests the idea of "telepathy being the defining characteristic of MR", but I cannot see how that could possibly be true. The article says,

Conceived during Sheldrake's time at Cambridge, morphic resonance posits that "memory is inherent in nature" and "natural systems, such as termite colonies, or pigeons, or orchid plants, or insulin molecules, inherit a collective memory from all previous things of their kind". Sheldrake proposes that it is also responsible for "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms".

Nothing here suggests that telepathy is "the defining characteristic" of morphic resonance.

You can learn about morphic resonance and telepathy in Dogs That Know; I provided a quote earlier. Sheldrake believes that morphic fields extend from an organism and connect to morphic fields that extend from other organisms, i.e., "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms". Like the quote "collective memories within species", the quote "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" is accurate. For purposes of the lead, it allows us to avoid getting into the details of distinguishing between morphogenetic fields, morphic fields, and morphic resonance. vzaak 03:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I still feel that the quote is not the most concise or representative example of Sheldrake's description of MR, given that he was referencing how others perceive it. If we're going to go through the trouble of including a direct quotation it should either be one of the many that includes Sheldrake's own definition or include some awkward proviso about the quote being referential to the views of others. This has been my ongoing concern with this quote from the beginning; whether or not a reasonable person could construe the words in the quote to be representative of MR, the context of the text makes it clear Sheldrake was referencing the views of others and not providing his own definition of MR. There are plenty of other quotes that could explain his own definition much more accurately, if you really feel the lead is lacking enough info on MR (a concept I find surprising).

I'll see if I can rustle up some representative quotes that fulfill both requirements, then we can set to rest the redundancy issue, contextual/intent problem and MR info matter at last. The Cap'n (talk) 06:15, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Put in a more representative quote in the lead. As far as the old one, I'd say the final nail in its coffin should be the fact that the passage it's taken from is quoted in its entirety further down the page. It seems to me we don't need the same passage to be quoted repeatedly throughout the text. The Cap'n (talk) 09:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Your argument appears to be based solely on your idea that the quote represents how others perceive morphic resonance. This is rebutted by my previous comments, particularly my last one, and I haven't seen a response to those points. The quote has been in the article for ages; instead of trying to remove it in slow-warring fashion, please use this talk page to gain consensus for removing it.

Incidentally, I would point out that the source you inserted doesn't even mention morphic resonance, making your change unsupported: morphic resonance suggests "telepathy is a natural ability of animal groups, to communicate with each other".[1] This no longer matters because the text has been removed. vzaak 14:18, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

My argument is based on the idea that a quote should represent the sentiment being expressed in the broader context and that it shouldn't be a smaller snippet of a fuller quote listed just a section or two lower. You mentioned that I didn't respond to your morphogenetic comment, which I did not because it was unconnected to the arguments being made, but the redundant quotes, unsuitability of this quote in the face of countless other sources and problem of contextual intent have been consistently ignored by you throughout, and they are very pertinent to this issue. I'm not sure if I'll continue struggling to justify this seemingly obvious point, as it appears to be just a time suck. Speaking of which...

I am not slow-warring, I am trying to add modest input to this page, make small changes and discuss possible negotiations. The fact you consider this inappropriate is bizarre. I have sought consensus and compromise at every turn, even searching for quotes that directly (and definitively) reference telepathy (the entire context of that quote was in reference to a MR question) to accommodate your concerns that this information be made clear to readers. So far your idea of compromise has been to blanket revert all of my work, plug in an additional citation or two to "explain" these actions and insist that nothing be altered on the page. This page has not remained the way it is for "ages" (what, a month?) because it is balanced, but because there's been such an incredible backlash against anyone trying to make even minor, balanced edits that everyone gives up. Look at the Talk archive and see the countless topic sections where established editors stated they were leaving the page in disgust. This is not a fruitful environment for collaboration, though FSM knows I'm trying. The Cap'n (talk) 08:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Your argument seems to be we can't say "Sheldrake says X" (even though, clearly, he does) because X is so transparently stupid that for Wikipedia to say "Sheldrake says X" is tantamount to libellously accusing him of stupidity. The facts however are clear: He does say X, but we're not accusing him of stupidity, we can let the reader make their own minds up. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Summary and Conclusion

Although repetition should be normally eschewed, this thread has become so long that we need a wrap-up.

• It is a sheer fact that telepathy-type interconnections between organisms is what Sheldrake is proposing. Sheldrake believes that morphic fields extend from organisms and connect to the morphic fields extending from other organisms. That's the medium for telepathy, according to Sheldrake. See Dogs That Know.
• In the source, the phrase "collective memories within species" appears directly before "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms", in the same sentence. Askahrc has stated that "collective memories within species" is accurate (which it clearly is).
• Sources that are sympathetic and supportive of Sheldrake use "telepathy-type interconnections between organisms" to describe morphic resonance: books[2][3][4][5] and who knows how many websites[6][7][8].

From what I can tell, Askahrc's arguments have been:

• The quote misleads. Contradicted by the above bullet points.
• The quote represents the perspective of Sheldrake's detractors. Contradicted by the above bullet points.
• The word "telepathy" is redundant in the lead. Fixed.
• The quote should not be mentioned because it appears in greater context in the body of the article. Doesn't follow; no reason why not.
• Other quotes exist. Perhaps, but the one given wasn't suitable for reasons that were explained.

The quote has been in the article for seven months, save for a period of about a week when it was removed by David, though David ended up restoring the quote himself. Askahrc needs to accept the consensus and stop pounding on the issue, please.

For the purposes of the lead, the quote succinctly connects morphic resonance to telepathy-related phenomena without getting into the details of describing and differentiating between morphic fields, morphogenetic fields, and morphic resonance. It would seem difficult to do better than that. vzaak 11:33, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Scientific community is not homogenous

In the third paragraph of the lead, "Morphic resonance is not accepted by the scientific community as a real phenomenon..." is an unsupportable generalization. It is like saying the religious community or the political community. I think the term "scientific community" is used here as a means of condemning rather than explaining that there are opposing views ... as there are for virtually all theories. I really thought we settled this months ago. Tom Butler (talk) 17:36, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

That statement is supported by the following references:

• Gardner, M. (1988). The New Age: notes of a fringe-watcher. Prometheus books. ISBN 9781615925773. "Almost all scientists who have looked into Sheldrake's theory consider it balderdash."
• Sharma, Ruchir (2012). Breakout Nations: In Pursuit of the Next Economic Miracles. WW Norton & Company. ISBN 9780393083835. "Despite Sheldrake's legitimate scientific credentials, his peers have roundly dismissed his theory as pseudoscience."
• Samuel, L. R. (2011). Supernatural America: A Cultural History: A Cultural History. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 9780313398995. "...most biologists considered Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance hogwash..."
• Wolpert, Lewis (11 January 1984). "A matter of fact or fancy?: SECOND OPINION". The Guardian. p. 11.
• Maddox, John (24 September 1981). "A book for burning?". Nature 293 (5830): 245–246. Bibcode:1981Natur.293R.245.. doi:10.1038/293245b0. "...Sheldrake's argument is in no sense a scientific argument but is an exercise in pseudo-science."
• Rose, S. (March 1992). "So-called "Formative Causation". A Hypothesis Disconfirmed. Response to Rupert Sheldrake" (PDF). Riv. Biol./Biol. Forum 85: 445–453. "Along with parapsychology, corn circles, creationism, ley-lines and "deep ecology", "formative causation", or "morphic resonance" has many of the characteristics of such pseudosciences..."
• de Pracontal, M. (1986). L'imposture scientifique en dix leçons. Editions La Découverte.
• Jones, David (4 July 1988). "Books: Captain Morphic – Review of 'THE PRESENCE OF THE PAST' By Rupert Sheldrake". The Times.

I agree that I thought this was settled - morphic resonance is pseudoscience and WP:DUCK applies to the statement that it is not accepted by general scientific consensus. Simonm223 (talk) 17:41, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Nice job of cutting and pasting. You are avoiding the point that the "scientific community" has not collectively condemned the theory. Saying it has here is a clear effort to bias the article. Some of your shotgun-like references are more specific than this article. Even Gardner qualifies his generalization with "Almost all scientists..." he specifically avoided "the scientific community." Tom Butler (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2014 (UTC)