Talk:Science

List of academic disciplines

Hello,

i would like to request to place a link or list of academic disciplines into the Head of the article. Academic disciplines are essential for the meaning of science and an oversight for them is missing in the article. I would suggest to place a link inside an infobox at the start of the article or a placement where it is easy to recognize. The infobox that is already placed does not give a good overwiev related to a structured list. It should also be placed above the picture. Thank you.

History of optics and its position in the development of science

Right now there are a slew of references which are intended to back up statements in the lede. The fifth sentence has eight references; the first sentence has four. I propose to use the model illustrated in Buffalo_Soldier#Notes to lessen the visual impact of this information, while retaining the existing citations. There are citations from the history of optics and vision which could be added in the Notes of the article this way. Right now I am awaiting access to JSTOR, but would this change be acceptable to the editors of this article? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 14:04, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Moorrests (talk) 19:10, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I also agree. In fact, I would say that most of the references in the lede could be removed. LadyLeodia (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I added those five important reference in the article so they can be removed from lead. Moorrests (talk) 19:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

During the transition, I will be adding in the JSTOR information and citation, and then consolidating. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 21:11, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Good. Moorrests (talk) 20:29, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

OK, I am finally in a position to include the JSTOR work, which includes a nuanced perspective from A. Mark Smith pp.xcviii-civ, and was chagrined to read his critique of our Wikipedia pages, which call Alhazen 'revolutionary', when A. Mark Smith calls him 'pivotal'. Mark Smith points out that Lindberg has never once called Alhazen 'revolutionary' (Smith studied history of science with Lindberg). Based on this, I propose to 'walk back' the emphasis on Steffes' viewpoint (it is a children's book, after all). Smith has completed a new book, From Sight to Light, and 2015 is 'the international year of Light', so this is all quite appropriate. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 13:06, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Smith finds that Alhacen (965-1040 CE) was firmly grounded in the latest thinking for his time, ranging from those of the natural philosophers (Aristotle 384–322 BCE), physiologists and physicians (Galen 129-216 CE), mathematicians (Euclid fl. 300 BCE and Ptolemy 90 – c. 168 CE), to hands-on practical experimenters (Alhacen and his assistants). Alhacen synthesized these views into a work on optics of his own, which was carried forward centuries later by al-Farisi (1276-1319 CE), and the Perspectivists: Roger Bacon (1214-1292), Witelo (1230-c.1300), and John Pecham (1230-1292), each of whom were influenced by his work on optics. (Bacon freely cited Alhacen.)

Alhacen (11th c.), Smith, A. Mark, ed. and trans. De Aspectibus. Critical editions of 7 books, Transactions of the American Philosophical Society New Series, Vols 91, 95, 98, and 100. via JSTOR:

• Books I-III 91 (2001) Vol 1 Latin; Vol 2 English
• Books 4-5 95 (2006) Vol 1 Latin; Vol 2 English
• Book 6 98 (2008) Vol 1 Latin; Vol 2 English
• Book 7 100 (2010) Vol 1 Latin; Vol 2 English

Books 1-3 are Alhacen's Visual perception; books 4-6 are on Reflection from mirrors, plane, curved, and at the edges of mirrors. Book 7 on Refraction is the most surprising; upon reading book 7 like a story, Alhacen moves from table-top physics to inferences about the stars, to the Moon illusion. I was personally surprised that Alhacen did not include Ibn Sahl's formulation of refraction (which was covered by Claudius Ptolemy), only giving the experimental setup to measure refraction.

The next chapter in the history of optics was Kepler (1604), who, in Smith's estimation, pivoted off of Alhacen's work to reformulate Visual perception, in the Scientific revolution. The chief reason is that light from a scene, when passing through an aperture (as in Alhacen's camera obscura) is inverted. Yet we do not see scenes inverted. Kepler closely examined our visual system and could find no second aperture. He concluded that the light from the scene ends on the retina only, and does not pass little forms through tubes to our brain's ventricles. This is in direct contradiction to Aristotle, on down to Alhacen, and the ontology of the Middle ages.

Finally, of course, in Newton's Opticks (1704), light can be diffracted into colors, which contradicts the ontology of the Middle ages. Thus Alhacen is rightly honored for his exhaustive examination of optics, which still can be used for personal study, to this day. OK, but what about his ontology? I suggest that we not throw rocks too freely if we critically examine our own unfounded assumptions of today. Optics gives us instructive analogs for points ( the blur circle, lines (Ray (optics)), and waves (electromagnetic waves). Optics is used in computing, lasers, and materials science.

A. Mark Smith is Curator's Professor of History, University of Missouri, Columbia. His field is Medieval History and History of Science. His newest book is coming out in 2015. Smith (2015) From Sight to Light Chicago

A. Mark Smith's view on Alhacen's use of a hypothetico-deductive method can be found in 91,vol.1,p.cxv and in 100,vol.1,p.c.

Now back to the article edits. To all editors: you are welcome to contribute to the article. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 16:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

To all editors: I have added the Alhacen citations to De Aspectibus, and could use some advice: Alhacen was welcomed in the West by 1200-1250, after his Latin translation. The Perspectivists recast his work on vision into Aristotle's categories, ala the Four causes, On the Soul etc. I quote Smith 1988, "Getting the Big Picture in Medieval Optics": "The perspectivist theory is remarkably reasonable economical and coherent". BUT after Kepler demolished Alhacen's theory of vision, this Aristotelean view went into steep decline. We don't even think about these things anymore. So why should we even mention this? Because maybe the current scientific theories are just as vulnerable? --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 02:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

What is science?

History of Science and this article leave out formal sciences and humanities. Formal sciences are not natural science at all, but a third kind. The lede refers to a elder meaning of "science", the body of knowledge hedged and produced at mainstream universities and reasearch institutes. This elder meaning is as well the current one, it is in line the mainstream of studies in actual STS, science sociology and history of science papers and with "Wissenschaft", the current German interwiki. The article tries to purport a part of science as the only one, it is based on a popular interpretation of 19th century positivism, confined to "hard" natural sciences. It doesnt get the difference between natural history and the important differenes between e.g. physics or live or earth sciences. The claim of islam being the foundation of science as of today is based on a BBC article, sorry thats a no-go. I strongly doubt it, better read the source. Islam helped to conserve a variety of ancient writings, which were of use in the Renaissance, but never had the chance to develope the academic freedom needed for science. Ibn al-Haytham lived in the wrong world, so he couldnt contribute anything to modern physics. Try the Merton thesis instead or check Humboldtian science for the actual background of science. Serten II (talk) 12:31, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Serten II, see the notes above; Smith points out that Alhacen's synthesis was pivotal for the scientific revolution rather than revolutionary, and that Kepler is rightly credited for his revolutionary role. Of course, Alhacen's disproof of Ptolemy's theory of visual perception is part of the story, but Alhacen went beyond the ancients.

You are welcome to contribute to the article by walking back the 'first scientist' claims about Alhazen, to something more measured. Quotationd with citations are appreciated. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 18:25, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the valuable links. The BBC article clams claiming Alhacen was father of optics and so forth. Thats 19th century Great Man theory, oldfashioned rubbish, science is not just based on ideas, it needs a society asking for them and accepting them. Alhacen (who had not been dealt with very friendly by the Islamnic authorities), fathered nothing in his times. Via translations of Alhacen, e.g. his book of optics and other Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe, scholasticism and the early medieveal universities were a more fruitful ground for his ideas. But the main start of scientific use of his writings was centuries later. Alhacen was valuable for Roger Bacon style science. The Renaissance camera obscura has invented an "epistemic machine" (using, among others Alhacens ideas) for a new perspective on personality, to to produce works of arts (main goal) and further knowledge (as a side product). Alhacen saw some apples falling, but Newton came later ;) Sources:

• An Anthropological Trompe L'Oeil for a Common World: An Essay on the Economy of Knowledge, Alberto Corsin Jimenez, Berghahn Books, 15.06.2013
• Don Ihde Art Precedes Science: or Did the Camera Obscura Invent Modern Science? In Instruments in Art and Science: On the Architectonics of Cultural Boundaries in the 17th Century Helmar Schramm, Ludger Schwarte, Jan Lazardzig, Walter de Gruyter, 2008

Domn Ihde is quite interesting as he does no accept the Diltheyan divide between science and humanities, but sees them as being part of the same way of thinking. That sounds like a sort of 21th century perspective, science is a part of philosophy and works of art. The current lede is parroting 19th century posititivism. Serten II (talk) 20:02, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Serten II, It appears that our edits will not be colliding, as I am adding Alhacen material. But if you encounter a conflict, please write it down on this talk page. Thus I believe we can continue to work in parallel, on our own schedules, and at our own speeds. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:06, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

@Serten II, one additional citation in support of the unity of the creative act, in both science and art (i.e., the acts of creativity are of the same type), is chapter one of Jacob Bronowski Science and Human Values ISBN 978-0571241903. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 20:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Albrecht Dürer self portrait

I did some work on the lede, the first attempt was way to long for an intro, so I divided the intro. The lede is now including the modern approach of science as a means to produce knowledge and provides some hints about the different approches to Wissernschaften and science. I tried to be not too harsh on Alhacen - his works could have been used much earlier for much more, but Modern western science was a different thing. The funny aspect is that Alhacen was great in pure science, he found basic laws of the refraction of light, but he was less into producing pictures. To invent photography and perspective and science in the modern meaning you needed more than tekkie ideas about optics - the rather western idea of an individual, both as artist and as person worth an image, was crucial. Latour has written about Laboratory Life, another "epistemic machinery", "The foreign observer describes the laboratory as "strange tribe" of "compulsive and manic writers ... who spend the greatest part of their day coding, marking, altering, correcting, reading, and writing"". Sounds like Wikipedia ;) I may have orphaned one source of you, Ancheta Wis, and I ask you to please correct it, as I am not experienced with the formatting of sources on your level. Serten II (talk) 23:16, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Dürer's use of optics

We can just work through items, as we can. Dürer has a picture which shows Alhacen's influence. His influence is the use of taut strings to show the path of a light ray. To illustrate that it is one civilization, Alhacen got this from Euclid's Optics. I plan to put this in the article. Alhacen merely thought of a way to trace a straight line in a very concrete way: use a taut string.The citation is already in the article: look for the "How does light travel in transparent bodies?". --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 23:38, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep thats as well in the Belting Book. Dürer is quite an important role model, generations of scholars have written Biographies about him - and used them to describe their own self view. Biographies of Roger Bacon and Galileo Galilei have had a similar role in the natural sciences, the current use of Alhacen or the various references to female scientists beyound Marie Curie is trying to enlarge the recruitement pool ;) allow me some mockery, but I appreciate the basic idea. Serten II (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

The additions at the lead have no real counterpart in the article body. The lead and any overview should reflect what is in the body. The additions seemed to be promoting some particular ideas about the philosophy of science and perhaps something could be put that section but it would probably be best to start in the article philosophy of science as that deals with this sort of thing in a much more balanced fashion. Dmcq (talk) 00:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

You could have added something about science practices, science ethos, women in science, the DWEM controversies, which have not been mentioned in neither version. We have had nothing so far inn the lede baout the interaction of science policy, public knowledge and politization of science. In so far your point refers as well to the previous version. Non reason for a revert. The improved version deals better with the interaction between the Islamic Renaissance and the western science, which is described en detail in the main text. Latour and the others are about very practical aspects of science, the differences between the German and the anglo approach was crucial for actual science. As said, if you want to contribute, do so, I still wait to see the first single constructive edit from your side in any article I have met you. Btw, have you written any article so far? Scientific misconduct and the scientific ethos have been left out completely, I have added it to the lede, but the article should have a specific section. Science ethos is a very humanity based issue important as well for the tekkie stuff. Are you able to add a section? Serten II (talk) 00:40, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a top-level article, which means that it should be a general introduction to the topic. The subtopics you mentioned are far too specific for a top-level article, per WP:WEIGHT. Furthermore, we would need top-quality sources to back up any material we add. A lot of the stuff you mentioned is tainted by fringe conspiracy theories. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Now you start calling names. I started here after I registered a BBC source used for the lede, not my idea of a top-quality source. Are you calling Humboldt, Hans Belting, Diltey or Merton fringe? Serten II (talk) 01:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

In what way should that be considered Fringe? Can't notice how and in what way. Hafspajen (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

This review [1] gives a quick background to the sort of stuff being proposed as opposed to as it puts it the widely accepted or orthodox view. Dmcq (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Its an review, yes and shows the importance of the science wars. It does not at all support your POV, its critical just about Sandra Harding , which is not mentioned in the proposal. It does not deal at all with the main aspects of the proposal but supports the basic outline - science is a part of society and supports the crucial and groundbreaking role of e.g. Thomas Kuhn in describing that role. How about something constructive? Serten II (talk) 14:43, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand, was the above suggested to be added to the article? Where? Hafspajen (talk) 14:56, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

The proposal by Serten II is just below. Compare just the lead for example with the current lead and come to your own conclusion about the weight and NPOV. Dmcq (talk) 16:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested Changes

The current version uses e.g. a BBC source for sorta dubious claims. Neither the lede nor the main text treats various crucial topics, namely

• Science of team science Science, technology and society Sociology of scientific knowledge Science studies Sociology of knowledge Knowledge economy
• Romanticism in science Humboldtsches Bildungsideal Humboldtian science Positivism dispute Crucial issues, not treated at all. We have a separate stubby entry for Wissenschaft btw.
• Research Criticism of science Protoscience Merton thesis Mertonian norms
• scholasticism Multiple discovery Heroic theory of invention and scientific development Epistemology
• scientific misconduct Research ethics Crucial aspect, not treated at all so far
• Science journalism (the current section about Media perspectives is rather amateurish)
• Science Wars The Two Cultures White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Dead white European mengender studies The controversies about female or minority perspetives, especially in the STEM fields are neither mentioned and need to be treated properly. Wilhelm Dilthey distinction is crucial, as well Steve Woolgar and of cause Bruno Latour.
• We Have Never Been Modern Laboratory Life Science in Action (for the record, calling books published by the Harvard University Press "fringe" needs some courage ;)

That said, the current version is far from being complete. I would refer to improve the article instead of defending the status quo. If you have an issue with my sources, comment them under the reference entry. Serten II (talk) 12:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Science (from Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about nature and the universe. In an older and closely related meaning, "science" also refers to a body of knowledge itself, of the type that can be rationally explained and reliably applied. A practitioner of science is known as a scientist.

In modern usage, "science" may refer as well to a way of pursuing or producing knowledge, not only the knowledge itself. Especially in the anglophone world "science" is often restricted to those branches of study that seek to explain the phenomena of the material universe. The German approach of "Wissenschaften" in the tradition of Humboldtian science and Humboldtian education ideal is more generic and includes all sort of scholarly endeavours with philosophy still as a common denominator. The The Two Cultures the German Positivism dispute and the US science wars refer to ongoing controversies about the role of natural sciences and the humanities. The controversies refered as well to the longstanding dominance of male White Anglo-Saxon Protestant scholars in e.g. US universities and the use of "Dead white European men" as role models. It has lead to various attempts, as in gender studies to involve e.g. female or minority perspectives in science and as well a backslash defending the important role of the classics. Science practices include a scientific ethos - and the breach of it, scientific misconduct, has lead to various scandals. Modern Science has lead to the developement of various scientific institutions and large scale scientific research programs and various interaction of private and state funded research. The use of large scale teams has lead to a new field describing the mechanisms of Science of team science as part of Science, technology and society studies. While some traditional fields of research have been deemed Pseudo or fringe science in the meanwhile, e.g. Physiognomy or parts of Eugenics. Science is undergoing fashions and trends as for Chaos theory, or Nanotechnology studies. Former popular fringe science topics as Animal magnetism have contributed to actual science, as it forced scholarly medicine to accept the Anesthesia methods.

The scale of the universe mapped to the branches of science and the hierarchy of science.

Further information: Outline of science

Overview

Classical antiquity saw science as a type of knowledge closely linked to philosophy, the approach was mirrored in the 19th century Humboldtian university, which used philosophy as connecting link of all sorts science, including the humnanities. The Islamic Golden Age has provided important impulses for the foundation of the scientific method. Alhazen (or Al-Haytham; 965–1039 C.E.) has been described as (Bradley Steffens 2006) "first scientist" senso stricto. During the Islamic Renaissance (7th–13th centuries), Alhazen made significant contributions to anatomy, astronomy, engineering, mathematics, medicine, ophthalmology, philosophy, physics, psychology, and visual perception. He emphasized experimental data and reproducibility of its results. While the Islamic Renaissance did not continue after the Siege of Baghdad (1258), translations of Alhacen and other Islamic contributions to Medieval Europe found a continued interest in scholasticism and the early Western medieval universities at Paris and Oxford. Important Scholars include William of Auvergne, Henry of Ghent, Albert Magnus, Thomas Aquinas, John Duns Scotus, and William of Ockham.

In the West during the early modern period the words "science" and "philosophy of nature" were sometimes used interchangeably. Until the 17th century natural philosophy (which is today called "natural science") was considered a separate branch of philosophy in the West. The emancipation of natural history as a separate topic is closely connected to Humboldtian science, the work and writings of German naturalist and explorer Alexander von Humboldt who combined scientific field work with the age of Romanticism sensitivity and aestetic ideals and made Romanticism in science rather popular.

The Merton Thesis sees a close link between early experimental science and Christian theology, especially Protestant pietism, similar to Max Weber's famous claim on the link between Protestant ethic and the capitalist economy. . Merton's 1936 doctoral dissertation Science, Technology and Society in 17th-Century England raised important issues on the connections between religion and the rise of modern science and is still significant in sociology of science.

In the 17th and 18th centuries scientists increasingly sought to formulate knowledge in terms of laws of nature such as Newton's laws of motion. Over the course of the 19th century, the word "science" became increasingly associated with the scientific method itself, as a disciplined way to study the natural world, including physics, chemistry, geology and biology. It is in the 19th century also that the term scientist began to be applied to those who sought knowledge and understanding of nature. However, "science" has also continued to be used in a broad sense to denote reliable and teachable knowledge about a topic, as reflected in modern terms like library science or computer science. This is also reflected in the names of some areas of academic study such as "social science" or "political science".

German philosopher Wilhelm Dilthey (1833 – 1911) strongly rejected the exclusive role of natural sciences (Naturwissenschaften), and asked to develope a separate model for the human sciences (Geisteswissenschaften). His argument centered around the idea that in the natural sciences we seek to explain phenomena in terms of cause and effect, or the general and the particular; in contrast, in the human sciences, we seek to understand in terms of the relations of the part and the whole. C.P Snow's The Two Cultures and the US Science Wars and the German Positivism dispute show a continued interest in the divide. There have been various attempts to bridge the gap. E.g. Bruno Latour suggest that modernity (and modern science) is based by producing new hybrids between nature and culture (translation) and by dividing them (purification). The Camera obscura is a powerful example for such an epistemic machinery: While Alhazen developed a useable theory of the refraction of light, he was not at all interested (or even hostile, compare Aniconism in Islam) to producing images with it. The Western use of the Arab knowledge however allowed a mass production of perspectival images and contributed to subjectivity and personality of artists and the persons depicted. The use of perspective in paintings, maps, theatre setups and architectural and later photographic images and movies provided a major leap with important side effects for science. Don Ihde goes so far to claim that "Art Precedes Science" and the Camera Obscura was crucial for the invention of Modern Science.

Perhaps I might offer a note in support of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism on the link between Protestant ethic and the capitalist economy. If you were to come to Los Angeles, you will observe the healthy effect of certain Protestant immigrant groups on its economy. They are quite visible, as they are not ethnically Europeans, but they have boosted the economy (investments, businesses, cars, houses, clothes, support for tutoring of their children, etc.). not only in LA, but also, e.g., New York City, Vancouver BC. You are welcome to ask me on my talk page for details. Or, perhaps via e-mail. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 10:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

References

Comments

• Reject completely The proposed changes seem to be practically all about the science wars where some social scientists analyze science and think that everything should be treated as culturally based. This is minor factor in modern science and should be treated under the philosophy section with a short summary in the lead. The coverage in this proposal is totally against weight in the overall article topic as is easily verified by looking for books entitled science and seeing if they talk about any of this, and is not neutral even in what it is covering as it excludes many other opinions as can be checked by looking at some of the recent summaries by theses social scientists themselves. The article Philosophy of science is probably the best place to stick all this. Dmcq (talk) 13:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Why do you continue with this sort of stuff? What those social scientists who have been commenting on the scientific method are engaged in is more rightly part of the humanities rather than science. The theories are debating points thought up over breakfast and are not in the least falsifiable, their idea of a peer review is whether something sounds original or makes good reading. There are social scientists who do actual science but just aping the form like a cargo cult is not science. I'm happy even so for them to be stuck somewhere suitable as Wikipedia is about covering what's out there but it just does not have the weight you think of in this top level article about science. Dmcq (talk) 14:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I doubt you read the proposal, which is far from dealing just with the science wars. Have you any example of those "books" entitled "science" you claim? Have you ever read one or used it in WP? Neither Humboldt nor Dilthey nor Merton are even close to that discussion. If you have an issue with scholalry studies about science, better come up with actual sources supporting your claim instead of coming upt with spite and hatred against anything you dislike and ignore. Science is a part of modernity and our common history - an article ignoring those studies and lacking basic links to the role of science in society is far from being complete. Serten II (talk) 14:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

As to spite and hatred I would point out that it is you who keeps on referring to scientists as tekkies and in your proposed you remove most of the description of what science has done and its various fields and instead stuck in a long paragraph criticizing science and ending by saying how pseudoscience has been helpful. Dmcq (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Reject completely As I said above, this material is far too peripheral to be in a top level article, and gives undue weight to relatively insignificant trivial fringe theories of dubious encyclopedic value. WP is not a WP:SOAPBOX for fringe proponents, conspiracy theorists, or "oppressed minorities", not a place to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. As for the romanticism stuff, it might deserve some mention in a history or philosophy of science article, but definitely not in a top-level article like this. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

• Strong wording, have you any proof for that sort of dismissal? You haveb't commented on any of the sources in questions. Its a harsh and offensive attack against living scholars, including a Holberg Prize laureate and a George Sarton Medal recipient, published in highstanding academic publishing houses, starting from the Harvard University Press. Nice sort of Wrong-way driving and something WP should be deeply ashamed of. Serten II (talk) 17:24, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

OK; I got that now. Maybe it can be added in a section? Hafspajen ([[User

talk:Hafspajen|talk]]) 20:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

They even deleted the stuff directly about Alhazen in that entry, seem they have secret information about Bruno Latour, which is quoted explicitely in the studies about Alhazens relevance and limitations for the developement modern science. I log out for a while, I am getting to angry about that behavior. Serten II (talk) 21:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I believe what you put in about him was all twisted and undue in the lead. However if Hafspajen wants to put that bit back in then I'll respect their opinion as being a seconder to form a consensus with you. I would point out though that Serten II has just gone out their way to edit the article on Alhazen to stick in a big section about the camera obscura, something he explained rather than invented he did a lot more important other work, which is mainly devoted to yet again pushing that science is all a social construct and quoting sociologists on that. Plus some more in the lead and at the end of the article in the same vein. Basically just hijacking any topic which is mentioned in any of those works as an excuse to push a point of view and arguing ad nauseum that only sociologists are qualified to have any opinion or be quote din Wikipedia on anything to do with how science is done and scientists are tekkies and unqualified. Dmcq (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Btw. Latour is quite outspoken about science having a sound base independent from our mindset. The problem is as old as the Allegory of the Cave btw., any Neanderthaler had the technical ability to build a dark room with a hole in it, but the use of the "camera obscura" as a metaphor for the individual and his mind contributed to the scientific revolution. Do you really think expanding WP based on scholalry studies is a bad thing? Serten II (talk) 22:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

It is VERY rude to put words in another editor's mouth. Don't ever do that again or you will be reported at ANI. Sneaky rhetorical tricks like that will earn you a bad reputation very fast. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

If you put so much faith in science, why do you use abusive comments on actual scholars? I appreciate any constructive comment, but I am not OK with disruptive blocking of the expansion of wikipedia. Serten II (talk) 23:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that your expansion makes the articles worse. Here Male monkeys prefer boys toys is an example of actual real science. That shows that even for things which at first might seem very difficult to test it can be possible to bring them into the realm of science. The people you quote however never attempt to try to check their ideas even though with a bit of ingenuity it might be possible to test some. Even so their studies are welcome on Wikipedia. Their ideas are however of quite low weight in this article. They are just some selection you thought would support your point of view with no evidence of any weight in this context. There are appropriate articles for the content and they include other points of view as well. Dmcq (talk) 00:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

For a start, try Laboratory Life. Latour and Steve Woolgar (L&W) started to study the lab work of a Noble prize winner in the same manner as ethnologists research the customes of a tribe in the amazonas. L&W developed a sort of measurement tool for the evaluation of scientific statements, from "taken for granted" (type 1) till "unqualified speculations" (type 5). L&W checked their method and left Ethnomethodology to describe en detail how the Thyrotropin-releasing hormone and its fonction in the human brain was established as a scientific fact, will say how lab work and various speculations were converted in a groundbreaking paper. L&W developed actor-network theory to explain their findings. That said, you state a lot of prejudice, but Latour and Woolgar studied the scientific process en detail and checked and adapted their findings and hypothesis very similar to the process a biologist may or should apply during testing mice (or monkeys). Serten II (talk) 01:21, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Trying to describe science is not the same as doing science. There was no checking like that video. Dmcq (talk) 01:39, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

You claim a lot. You actually may use the same scientific method describing chimapanzees in a cage, or eggheads in a lab. Latour et al studied science in action, and of cause there was a lot of checking. Serten II (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Well I don't see it, I would class it at best as a pre-science like botany before Linnaeus. And how about Reiner Grundmann who you keep on dragging into climate change articles, when did he ever consider alternative reasons why climate change action has been widely resisted compared to action on the ozone hole besides shoring up his pet theories about social interaction? I never noticed him accounting for what might be far more important factors, for instance that people like the freedom of driving cars around and don't like to think of that as destructive - and they certainly don't like the idea of fuel price rises and regulations. Dmcq (talk) 09:31, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Anyway my opinion of their studies is pretty much irrelevant. The real point is that the proposal violates weight badly as far as this topic is concerned. It is even badly unbalanced in the depiction of the area it talks about. It should go into the philosophy of science article. Dmcq (talk) 12:00, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Oh, no, no. I am not going to put anything back in the lead. I think that this - sorry Serten - should not be included exactly in the lead. Long standing leads should not be modified without a real broad consensus. It is difficult to go ahead and modify a lead. However I was asking if you could find a compromise to put that material in a section. Not in the lead but find an acceptable way of adding it in a section. And one more thing - actually the wording foundation for the scientific method might be misleading.[2] Further development or conservation maybe. Because the actual foundation is probably the ancient Greek still, however close they were to philosophy. Still it was rater revolutionary and was the base for may ideas developed further. Even our own articles contradict each other .... see History of scientific method. I simply think that this should be posted at sciences noticeboard or an Rfc. We are to few here, a broader consensus with more editors with scientific background should be involved, that would be good, because I think you all have a point. Hafspajen (talk) 11:47, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I still miss a constructive feedback dealing with the wide array of links relevant for this topic that have not been mentioned at all so far. I fear less about my text, as WP always allows to find articles - and coauthors - (Bruno Latours actor-network theory applies as well to WP) that welcome expansion based on scholarly sources. I have a more brutish top down approach than Hafspajen, e.g. i put my first edits in the David Hume lede, after discussion the most part went in the main text but some traces still exist in the lede. Thats as well my goal here. Will you ask at the noticeboard Hafspajen? Serten II (talk) 13:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Actor-network theory? You mean you've observed that people put words into articles and have lots of discussions and think that's it so you think you are productive by sticking in lots of words and going on an on in the discussions? That way of thinking is cargo cult science. Expanding a cake by sticking in lots of chalk and wood shavings and taking out the flour does not improve it. You've had constructive discussion - you've been told where the stuff could go and that it is inappropriate where you're trying to put it. It just doesn't agree with what you want to do. Your 'brutish approach' is disruptive and you have taken up the time of too many other editors. Try putting the stuff where it belongs in the first place. And stop trying to use every article you come across as a coatrack for your hangups about science. Dmcq (talk) 14:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)