Talk:September 11 attacks

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Good article

I think we are close. Here are some issues:

• "The attacks" section still bothers me, with the "investigations" paragraph. I suggest reading the section aloud and see how it sounds, to see if the paragraph is out of place to you? If I understand correctly, this section is meant to be a quick summary of the day's events. Per summary style, we then link to a more detailed timeline page. Later in the article, we do talk about the collapse investigations. I would put those details in that section and not the timeline/day of attacks section. Of course, if everyone disagrees with me, then okay.
• The "economic effects" section is subpar, with parts of it completely unreferenced.
• The prose in the "international reactions" section is choppy. "The attacks had major global political ramifications." doesn't seem well written to me. For the line, "and froze the bank accounts[150] of businesses", the reference can go at the end of the sentence, rather than in the middle. Overall, the section sounds like a bunch of disparate thoughts all added by different people and it doesn't flow together as good prose.

There are other issues, but I think if these things are addressed, that would address the most glaring things. --Aude (talk) 04:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I personally feel that the investigations do not need to be covered in the Attacks section. My preferred form of words says that WTC7 was hit by debris, fires were reported, and it collapsed later in the day. Some editors (and various conspiracy theorists) have argued that the cause of collapse is unknown and might be controlled demolition - after all, the investigation is still ongoing, so nobody knows for sure. This is an area where two opposing viewpoints are apparently each unwilling to let the other side imply anything about the collapse - that it is perfectly simple, or that it is mysterious, or a cover-up. Hence, too many words are present, rather than too few. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Issues Summary

I'm going to summarize for clarity then.

Attacks and Investigations

• Lengthy accounts. Sections need to be summarized appropriately on this article with proper links directing the reader to subarticles. It would be a shame to lose any of this information we've worked hard on. Please be careful in moving large sections so that references aren't cut off on either end. A missing <ref> tag is a good way to ruin an article.

All right, I've removed the individual flights. I found that to be the most awkward area of the section. -- VegitaU (talk) 00:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Somebody please cross-check my work. I've run through the "Attacks" and "Attackers and motive" sections and I need someone to go through and make sure it makes sense. I've cut a lot out that was either unreferenced, dead linked, redundant, or already mentioned on subarticles. Please review my edits. Thanks, and we're doing a great job. -- VegitaU (talk) 04:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

• As for WTC7, everything depends on the choice of words. "WTC 7 collapsed later in the day. Ongoing investigations by NIST hypothesize that fires caused by falling debris compromised the building's integrity and caused its collapse." Something along those lines.

Economic aftermath

• I'm not sure about being subpar. A lot of information seems factual, rather than opinionated, but needs references.
  • Reasons why I think the section was a problem include the "rebuilding" information, which seemed out of place. As such, I have moved it. I am also not sure the section is a "comprehensive". It mentions somethings with maybe a tad too much detail, while it omits other points (e.g. effects on the insurance industry). I'm working on the subarticle to make sure it covers all important points, then can come back to this section here with references and try to make it a more balanced summary. --Aude (talk) 03:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This section is in serious need of citations and reworking. We might, in fact, cut major portions that we can't cite out of it. -- VegitaU (talk) 18:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

International reactions

• May want to get rid of the first sentence and add the link to the top with a {{see}} template. Otherwise, it didn't look particularly choppy to me. Either way, if anyone believes they can improve it, do it. Above all, remember the references. -- VegitaU (talk) 18:47, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Books

Why is this section needed at all. It seems like it would cause more problems than help readers. Thoughts? — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%. That section seems like a problem waiting to happen. I sugested it's removal back when we were arguing if a book should be added or not. The problem is any book added is most likely going to have POV one way or the other. Really, the only book that probably has any right to be there is the NIST Report, since it is refrenced so many times, and doesn't feel like it pushes anything more than official findings. --Tarage (talk) 22:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. It does not have a well-defined purpose, and there isn't an "authoritative" reading list on the subject yet. Currently, it's a silly grab-bag of books that have something to do with 9/11 by someone notable or maybe notable. Not useful to readers, not encyclopedic. --Haemo (talk) 00:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It's there because some editors wanted Chomsky's book to be linked from this page. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It's been removed with a note. --Haemo (talk) 00:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Images

I removed two of the "smoke plume" images, as I don't think we needed three in the article. The images removed include: Image:New York September 11 NEXRAD.png and Image:SmokePlumePentagon911.png. This makes room if we want to add something else, instead. --Aude (talk) 03:36, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I've reworked a few, replacing the overwhelming amount of structural damage photos we had with more memorable ones. -- VegitaU (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

We also need to move some images around, and remove some others. Yes, it's nice that we have lots of free images — but we don't really need all of them in the article. One per section is probably good, and it should fit the content. (For example, the one in "Motives" seems out of place). --Haemo (talk) 00:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Another one is the 9/11 Commission report cover. Useful? Informative? I'm not really sure. --Haemo (talk) 00:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed it up. You're right, it wasn't very interesting. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The Lead

I think the lead needs work too in order to summarize the entire article, not just the attacks and casualties. Also, I think there's too much detail there. For example, I can't really find any mention of the specific flights in the body (after I deleted them, I know), but they are in the lead. I don't want a bulleted list with super-detailed information like we had, but a more generalized, quick run through of what happened. "Flights 11 and 175 crashed..., Flight 75 crashed..., and Flight 93 crashed..." Shouldn't be longer than a few sentences and we can get rid of those specifics in the lead - just say "two flight...into WTC, one into Pentagon, the fourth at Shanksville after a revolt."

Let me know what you think or change this as you see fit. It's only my opinion after all. -- VegitaU (talk) 04:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is starting to shape up nicely. I think if you put the flights into the text "Two aircraft, Flight 11 out of... and Flight 175 out of... " it would cover it. Right now it just says "two aircraft, both 767s" which seems to be too little info and then later flight 93 is mentioned in the text. --PTR (talk) 16:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I reworked the lead and first section, but I think it still needs tweaking to really get up to standards. -- VegitaU (talk) 18:15, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The final sentence of the lead, "Progress has seen a lack of agreement as well as criticism over the planned Freedom Tower," seems a bit awkward to me. Is there a better way to phrase this sentence? Ice Cold Beer (talk) 07:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for a indefinite ban

This article is no good, no good at all. I'd like to be banned from Wikipedia indefinitely because of my decision to state it as it is and bring NPOV to the issue.

Please, be kind and leave this remark for future reference. Thanks. Tachyonbursts (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)