Talk:Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia

the offical name of this state

- With the greatest of respect to user:DIREKTOR; I think his comments, edits, etc. are entirely POV. I see no categorical reason why this state (which it was, regardless of how) was not officially called 'Serbia' and I see no evidenced reason to call it either 'Nedic's Serbia' or 'the Government of National Salvation-the latter of which is obviously not the official name of the state; or for that matter, any good reason why itwas not, at least formally, a monarchy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk • contribs) 16:01, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

What happened with the emphasis on the German military administration being reduced? Also the title ignores that Serbia was led by another leader also in the stated time period

The name of this article is bad, since it describes a government that was also led by another leader, Milan Aćimović. Also, Serbia as a whole was under a German military administration known as the Military Administration of Serbia, led by a German governor who was in command of armed forces in Serbia. I suggest that the name of this be restored to "Serbia (1941-1944)".--R-41 (talk) 18:50, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME. Enough said. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:32, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Military Administration in Serbia / Militärverwaltung in Serbien

Well, i have one proposition. We have where one name, but as far as i can see, there are not enough users who agree to this. I also dont like it. And i have one proposition.

As no official state was established during Nazi rule in Serbia, we dont have official name of the state that we can use. But, only official entity that did existed during the war was Militärverwaltung in Serbien or Military Administration in Serbia. In article Military Administration (Nazi Germany) you may see the names of the other countries that shared the same fate.

Name	Article
Militärverwaltung in Serbien	Nedić's Serbia
Militärverwaltung in Belgien und Nordfrankreich	Military Administration in Belgium and Northern France
Militärverwaltung in Frankreich	German military administration in occupied France during World War II
Militärverwaltung in Polen	German military administration in occupied Poland
Militärverwaltung in Rumänien	Military Administration in Romania (No link, i created it.)
Militärverwaltung in Griechenland	Axis occupation of Greece during World War II

Now, we have sources for several names, but i propose that we rename this article into something like German military administration in Serbia during World War II, or Military Administration in Serbia, etc, as per this, we will have article that will cover entire WWII history of this article, and will be neutral. Nedić's Serbia is questionable per several questions.

1. . Nedić's government was not the only one government of WWII territory of Serbia
2. . Word Serbia does mean territory, not state. This WWII entity is located in the present state of Serbia, so it cannot be wrong, as we dont make thing up.
3. . COMMONNAME cannot be the main guideline in this case. In several questionable situations, common name is override in order to follow some more important guidelines, and to make peace. We need article about Serbia during WWII, not about Nedić's Serbia.

So, now, i first need your propositions, your attitudes, and after all, we will see what will happen. Thanks to all, my dear friends! :) :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 15:55, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A logical way to cover this would be to have a "Military Administration in Serbia" article, with two specific sections about it's civil governments: "Nedić government" and "Aćimović government". Ideally, we would have the "Nedić government" and "Aćimović government" main articles that the two sections woul link to. But of course, we are faced with powerful imaginations that consider an unnamed state to have existed under a German military occupation authority, and equate an idea of "defending Serbia's honor" with "proving" that their country was a Nazi puppet state.

WhiteWriter, I recommend you see how WWII Norway is covered on Wiki, an occupied Allied kingdom under a German military administration, with a civil government installed - an identical case. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree with any renaming of this article that will not reflect that this article speak about Serbia. No matter how you define what Serbia was in this time (state, occupied territory, what ever), it is not disputed that an territory with name Serbia existed from 1941 to 1944 and that entity was not only geographical, but also political one. German military administration and local Serbian governments were only forms of administration that governed this territory, but existence of these administrations have nothing with the fact that an political entity with name Serbia existed. Therefore,this article should speak about that political entity, while German military administration in Serbia or local Serbian governments are subjects that should be described either in subsections of this article either in separate articles. So, if you want to have article about German military government in Serbia, you should create new article that would speak about that. Please do not rename this article without consensus. PANONIAN 04:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

And to be clear: all titles of this article that would imply that it speaks about Serbia itself are acceptable. Titles that would imply that this article is not about Serbia, but about something "in Serbia", "of Serbia", etc are completely POV and completely unacceptable. I disagree with such annihilation of subject about which this article speaks. PANONIAN 04:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

And to repeat: "German Military government in Serbia" and "Government of national salvation" ARE NOT POLITICAL ENTITIES. I cannot believe that you people do not understand the difference between political entities and forms of governments or administrations that govern political entities. Difference between such things is a basic fact. PANONIAN 04:37, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Now here I will give you concrete examples which will prove how your logic is wrong: this article also speaks about subjects such are theatre, film, sports,etc. So, did The Serbian National Theatre in Belgrade that is mentioned in this article existed in Serbia or it maybe existed "in administration" or "in government"? Or did city of Belgrade itself existed "in administration" or "in government"? How one theatre or city could exist "in administration" or "in government" at all? It is a question of basic logic. PANONIAN 04:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

  Nazi Germany

  Areas under German and/or Axis occupation

  German allies, co-belligerents, and puppet states

  Allied-held areas

  Neutral countries

Panonian, I am terribly sorry you can't inderstand this, and when I finally have the time, I will do my best to resolve these misconceptions of yours. Quite simply, there was no state or political entity in Serbia during WWII. Serbia was occupied by various axis states, and this territory was under direct German occupation, with two successive civil governments installed by the occupation authorities. I am sorry, since that seems to trouble you, and I don't know what they taught in school, but it was not a nazi puppet country.--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 06:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Please stop pushing your POV and original research. Map that you showed is exact proof that there was an political entity named Serbia. If there was no such entity then maps would not show it. This entity had its borders and had military and civil administrations that governed over it - that is enough for definition of a political entity. Just answer this: how something that does not exist can have borders? You have no answer, of course. Please stop wasting valuable time of other users. PANONIAN 12:57, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Yup, I agree. More or less everything 'DIREKTOR' has posted is POV and original research and thus has no place on wikipedia, however noble his sentiments may be. To wit: DIREKTOR, we get it, the nazis anmd the ustashe were bad. don't let it cloud hsitorical reality.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, and what do you think about Occupation of Serbia during World War II? P.S. PANONIAN, i really think that there was not official state proclaimed during WWII in Serbia. Only military administration. WWII Norway is really identical situation. And in order to satisfy both view, Occupation of Serbia during World War II may be good? Please tell me your attitudes, thanks, boys! :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 14:38, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not claiming that Serbia was "official state". It was an Axis political entity with its own borders and Wikipedia should have an article about that entity (whether it was state, occupied territory, occupied area or whatever is completely irrelevant here). All other things (occupation, military administration, Serbian governments) are only issues that happened within that entity and it would be ridiculous that we have articles about any of those if we do not have one about entity itself. Military administration cannot govern an non-existing territory. If there was an administration then there was also an territory that was under this administration and you would be in war with basic logic if you say anything opposite. PANONIAN 20:26, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR in particular seems to just be determined to avoid using the word 'Serbia' in the title of this article for whatever personal reasons, despite the amount of primary evidence both PANONIAN and I have given him.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Unlike most Croatian nationalists and Ustaše-supporters, who proclaim a Nazi Serbia existed alongside Nazi Croatia, I am a special case: I want to make sure "Serbia" is not on the list of Nazi puppets (notice that "Norway" is not there, but is listed as "controversial" in spite of its absolutely identical situation).

Dealing with Serbian nationalism is becoming a part-time job on enWiki. If I were to support the word "Serbia" nationalists would oppose me saying I'm trying to equate Serbs with fascist Croats ("Serbs were always anti-fascist!"). Since I support the removal of the word "Serbia", I am trying to "strike Serbia's name from the annals of history!" or whatever. Ridiculous.

I'll say this again: PANONIAN's sources are worthless with regard to supporting his claim in any way. PANONIAN's googling "Serbia World War II" is useless because it includes 1) geographic usage of the term (like "Macedonia" "Bosnia", etc.), and 2) colloquial unofficial usage of the term. There was no state there. No country. He has to show the opposite, and he has not. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

-but that's POV, which has no place on wikipedia. Your POV is clear here: "Unlike most Croatian nationalists and Ustaše-supporters, who proclaim a Nazi Serbia existed alongside Nazi Croatia, I am a special case..." -what about stuff like coins, banknotes, edicts et cetera? As shown above, they all used the word 'serbia'.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I was being sarcastic, User:JWULTRABLIZZARD. I am following what the sources on WWII say on the status of this occupied territory - not any "POV" of mine. Why would I personally care about WWII Serbia?

Coins? :) Coins do not a country make. Quisling's money undoubtedly had "Norway" on it. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:37, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes...and if the territory was not called 'Serbia', what would be the point in putting 'Serbia' on the currency?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Nedić's goal was to have a Serbian state, after the war or perhaps sooner (assuming of course that the Germans would win). The point is that he did not - the Germans did not allow it (for a number of reasons) and kept the territory as the Militärverwaltung in Serbien. All in all: who cares about the coins.. We do not determine the status of a government or territory on the basis of coins and assumptions such as the above. That is called WP:OR. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:37, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

"point is that he did not - the Germans did not allow it (for a number of reasons) and kept the territory as the Militärverwaltung in Serbien" -what evidence do you have for this assertion?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

-Correct me if I'm wrong; but didn't Quisling get the storting to declare Haakon VII deposed and changed the state's name from 'Norges Rike' to merely 'Norge'?JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The sources are more than abundant that the Militärverwaltung in Serbien was the governing authority of this occupation zone for the entirety of the war (or I should say 1941-44). That said, you must understand that I am not the one in need of evidence here - the positive assertion is PANONIAN's ("Nedić had a country!"). Of course the nonsense assertion is indeed based on an argument from ignorance ("prove that he did not!") that demands proof for a negative. At this stage comes the false quoting of sources that do not really support the assertion, etc.. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:55, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

-yes, but nonetheless every territory, occupied or not, has a name. for example, the riechskommisarriats in the eastern occupied territories were both called 'Ostland' and 'Ukraine'.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

The name of this occupied territory was "Military Administration in Serbia". The point I'm making is that Nedić did not have a state therein. That the area might've been called "Serbia" or that the term "Serbia" is used as a geographical term in sources - these are not what I'm talking about. This was a German-occupied territory (legally a part of Germany) that was administered by the Militärverwaltung in Serbien. The Militärverwaltung (which had a Wehrmacht officer as the commander) established two successive civil governments within - which did not consititute seperate states. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:56, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Well; you are certainly mistaken on one point: being 'occupied' by another state's armed forces doesn't make a territory 'legally part of' the other state. to become 'legally part of' another state, said territory needs to be formally annexed. For example, the USA militarily occupied the us sector of germany after world war two; that doesn't mean the us sector became US territory. The same goes for Japan after World War Two. Now, it may well have been Nazi Germany's intention to later annex serbia, but no such annexation took place, like it did for example in austria. this was an occupied, not annexed territory.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 18:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, seems that DIREKTOR clearly admitted that he have personal political agenda that he want to push and due to that he should be banned from editing of this article. Now to deal with specific issue: WW2 Serbia was not "only geographical term" because of simple fact that it had defined administrative borders. No single area that is "only geographical" would not have defined administrative borders. It would be nice that DIREKTOR present one single source that claim that WW2 Serbia was "only geographical area". Of course, such source does not exist and it is clear that word "geographical" came from his head and from his head only with no any background in real World. Now, as I said before, the issue whether Serbia was a "real country" or not is completely unrelated to this problem. I myself would agree that Serbia was rather occupied territory than real country and that Germans left the full solution of the question of Serbian statehood for the future, but there is no single source that would say that area was only geographical and that name "Serbia" was not used for it. Status of WW2 Serbia was in fact similar with status of Iraq after American invasion in 2003: the country was under American military control with weak local government installed by the Americans. Would DIREKTOR also claim that Iraq was just geographical area in that time and that its name was not "Iraq"? Finally, if name of WW2 Serbia was not "Serbia" why German used name "Military administration in Serbia"? Why not "in Yugoslavia" or "in Balkans" or whatever? Facts are clear: Germans destroyed and occupied Yugoslavia and created an political entity named "Serbia", which was under their military administration, but where weak local Serbian government existed as well. So, yes, Germans did not allowed that Serbia immediately become "full country" because military control of that area was strategically important to them, but it is simply not truth that Germans did not allowed that name "Serbia" is used for it. Germans were the one who introduced name "Serbia" for that territory and claim that they did not allowed usage of that name is ridiculous. PANONIAN 19:05, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

And two more questions for DIREKTOR: 1. is there any source that say that "Serbia was legally part of Germany" during the war?, and 2. if "Nedić did not had a state therein" why you presented in your map that he did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Axis_occupation_of_Yugoslavia_1941-43.png If it was some fictional government without therein why its domain have borders on your map? Geographical areas are not having such borders. PANONIAN 19:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Direktor's previous confusion about the meaning of the word "regime" seems to extend to "administration" also. The "Military Administration in Serbia" was not the "name of [an] occupied territory". That occupied territory was named or called "Serbia" (Serbien), as the term "Military Administration in Serbia" indicates. I myself would have no problem with two articles on the Military Administration in Serbia and the Nedić regime, with an overview article on Serbia during World War II. The current title is a compromise designed to reflect the reality of the current article's scope. Srnec (talk) 19:20, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR obviously does not understand the distinction between 'occupation' and 'annexation'. Two completely different concepts.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

No pointing finger, please, JWULTRABLIZZARD! :) So what do you think about this?

We rename this article to Serbia during World War II. Serbia in the geographical sense, and in almost all other. And after that, we create new articles for both governments on that occupied Serbia? That may be god solution... What do you people say? Just tell me do you agree, or not? --WhiteWriter ^speaks 23:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh no; 'Whitewriter'; that wasn't meant in a personal sense towards 'DIREKTOR' at all, far from it, just stating what seemed to be the case.

Yes, 'Serbia during World War Two' would be acceptable, although I think ikt would be a good idea to hunt for official documents relating to this regime to see what offical name, if any, this entity had, and to include that name in the table at the top of the article.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 08:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

as regards separate articles for the two governments: that to me seems uneccesary: whatever the political reality of this entity, it clearly was an organised political entity of some description, to whatever degree, and as such information about those governments should be included in here.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 08:42, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Let see, there are several other titles that are acceptable for me:

• Serbia during World War II
• Serbia (1941-1944)
• Serbia under German occupation

However, it should be clearly specified that such article would speak about territory of political entity named Serbia that was created by Germans in 1941 and not about territory of modern Serbia in AVNOJ borders. We can also have separate articles about two governments and about German military administration, but these articles should be focused only at specific issues related to these governments such is list of ministers, documents adopted by the governments etc. Anyway, WhiteWriter, I suggest that you do not rename this article unilaterally without general consensus and to start new revert war with DIREKTOR who will probably rename it again to Nedić regime after your own renaming attempt. PANONIAN 08:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

No, i will not do anything until DIREKTOR agrees. It seems that all three of us agreed on Serbia during World War II article name, as the first step. We will see what DIREKTOR said... --WhiteWriter ^speaks 09:15, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I think 'Serbia (1941-1944)' is best, as it is completely unambiguous.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Dont know, i am against it... It looks ugly, and it may mean that Serbia was official name. Like this it will mean only Serbia during World War II, and what happened to territory of Serbia during WWII... --WhiteWriter ^speaks 11:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

-I think it looks much neater, and using the term 'Serbia' does not imply that it was an official name. Also, to be fair, the regime only lasted from 1941 to 1944, and that's not the whole of World War Two. So, that's why I think 'Serbia (1941-1944)' would be the most correct title for this article.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Firstly I was misunderstood, this territory was obviously not "a part of Germany" as an annexed territory. What I meant was that it was admninistered by Nazi Germany. PANONIAN, most of your posts and activities here are really not much more than trolling. You are not discussing the issue properly but are merely repeting the same old fake arguments, "supported" by purposely misquoted references, and refuted a dozen times over. I reccomend you try to understand more about the very complex situation and history of WWII Yugoslavia before you try to write on the subject. Keep your personal attacks and theories about my "political agendas" to yourself, I will report them the second I read them.

Secondly, "Serbia" is (according to Wiki naming conventions) the title that we would use for a country called "Serbia". Hence the name is entirely unacceptable and is not much more than an affirmation of the strange idea that "Nedić had a country!".

And thirdly, this issue is really moot. The name change was discussed several times in proper RMs and this name was chosen by the admins on good grounds. Unless it is shown that the country of this country article did not exist (which I plan to do quite easily when I catch the time), there are no new changes to the state of affairs and there are no grounds whatsoever for an RM. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

For those few who ween't aware, this has all been previously discussed at some length here quite recently.Fainites ^barleyscribs 18:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

@DIREKTOR, how on earth was what you said in anyway unambiguous? You stated quite clearly it was 'legally a part of Germany'; when it wasn't.

Also; your objections to using the word 'Serbia' in this article is frankly baffling; (and with all respect makes me even more convinced that you're just -for whatever reason-determined to prevent the title of this article having the word 'Serbia' in it.) even if it wasn't a country, and was merely an occupied territory like the eastern reichskomissariats, that doesn't mean it wasn't called 'Serbia'. For example, the Reichskomissariat Ukraine still had the word 'Ukraine' in its official name and there is no argument about whether that was a country. (and it wasn't, is was just a German occupied-territory.)JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:15, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Norway has two articles, Occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany and Quisling regime. This article covers Nedic's regime but does it cover the whole of Serbia in WWII? ie, what was Serbia before the Nazis sliced it up and parcelled it out. If not, perhaps there should be another article on Serbia in WWII and this one on Nedic's regime.Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:31, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

-Well, this is why I object to 'Serbia during World War Two'; because 1939-1941, this territory was part of the Kingdom of Yugolavia, 1944-1945 it was part of Democratic Federal Yugoslavia, which later became the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. It was only under this regime for part of the war.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 01:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion the title should be reverted to the more neutral Serbia (1941–1944), as the article was titled previously. The Germans considered the territory to be "Serbia", as in the Military Administration in Serbia. Also, unlike "Nedic's Serbia", it can take into account that there was another leader, Acimovic, who led the puppet Serbian regime before Nedic. The emphasis on the military administration needs to be restored, it was effectively in charge of Serbia. The military administration governed the armed forces of Serbia, and allowed the region of Banat to be an autonomous territory to be run by local ethnic Germans. The Nedic regime was like that of Quisling or of collaborator governments in places like Flanders, they were not independent states, even though they often attempted to persuade Germany to recognize them as such.--R-41 (talk) 04:41, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Norway covers this in three articles:

• Occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany, with two sub-articles
  • Reichskommissariat Norwegen, the German authority in Norway, essentially the equivalent of the Militärverwaltung in Serbien
  • Quisling regime, about the civil government under the Reichskommissariat

This is how I would cover this question: Occupation of Serbia in World War II would cover ALL of Serbia, including Banat (Hungarian-occupied), Kosovo (Italian/Albanian-occupied), Srem (NDH-occupied), etc. as well as the central area under German occupation. A sub-article Military Administration in Serbia, would focus on the German authority, and the Nedić regime and Aćimović regime articles would focus on the two German-established civil authorities in the Militärverwaltung. The focus in the latter two would obviously be on the Nedić regime article, with the possibility that the early, and far less significant, Aćimović regime be included as a section in the Nedić regime article.

This imho is the only elegant and accurate solution to this complex problem. The current situation 1) handles the Nedić government, a civil authority in the Militärverwaltung, as a WWII country(!); 2) ignores areas of Serbia occupied by others than Nazi Germany; and 3) ignores the Aćimović government. Renaming the article "Serbia" is, as I said, extremely inaccurate and misleading, and only aggravates "problem #1". --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

"Occupation of Serbia in World War II would cover ALL of Serbia, including Banat (Hungarian-occupied), Kosovo (Italian/Albanian-occupied), Srem (NDH-occupied), etc. as well as the central area under German occupation."

Yeess, but that's only because we're looking at it (well, you are) from a 2011 perspective. what constitutes 'Serbia' has been historically fluid: for example, before 1912, the Kingdom of Serbia consisted of only the northern aprt of what we now call 'Serbia', (and didn't include the Banat region either.) 'yet the Kingdom of Serbua' article still has 'Serbia' in it.Tsar Stephan Dushan's empire of Serbia covered most of the Southern Balkans, but it was still 'Serbia,'

Also this also depends on political perspective: the Serbian government of today would view Kosovo as part of Serbia, but supporters of Kosovan independence and the Kosavan government would not. This also extends to whether it was or was not. If Nedic considered his territory independent (but the germans did not)-as I think was the case with the Quisling regime- where do we draw the line? If that is the case,was it a state or not, even if only de jure? (I'm not going to take 'de facto' arguments here-if the state was considered legally a state in it's own eyes, then de jure, it was, at least to a degree.)

Regardless of all that, 'Serbia (1941-1944)' is quite clearly the best, most unambiguous choice. The term "Militärverwaltung in Serbien" was used in an official capacity, therefore use of 'Serbia (1941-1944)' is entirely correct, regardless of how much of the territory of modern serbia (which was not consitituted until 1944 anyway in its present borders.) was covered by it.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 09:31, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes I was and am ware of all that, but the bottom line is there was no "Serbia" at all from 1918 to 1945 (just like there wasn't any "Croatia" or "Bosnia" or "Montenegro" etc.), so "Serbia (1941-1944)" is just plain nonsense. We're not in the business of inventing countries.

As a part of a series of articles on Serbian history it is perfectly acceptable to use the title "Occupation of Serbia in WWII". As far as Kosovo is concerned I would include it, but the issue is really quite secondary - its certainly not the only non-German occupied part of Serbia. We can probably just mention it in a sentence or two as a compromise, avoiding any in-depth study. (I hope you don't mind I WP:INDENT-ed your post :)) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:46, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

-Of course not. :)

As far as Kosovo is concerned I would include it, but the issue is really quite secondary - its certainly not the only non-German occupied part of Serbia." -yes, but like I said, this only means 'Serbia' as we define it today.

Serbia in the middle ages did not include all of what we now define as 'serbia', and neither did the kingdom of serbia prior to 1918-do we not crate separate artciles for those examples? clearly not.

but the bottom line is there was no "Serbia" at all from 1918 to 1945 (just like there wasn't any "Croatia" or "Bosnia" or "Montenegro" etc.

-well, 1918-1941 there was no 'Croatia' (although there was a banate of Croatia created just prior to the german invasion) or 'Montenegro', but 1941-1944, in the eyes of the axis (of which some states recognised the independence of) there was, in the eyes of the allies, there was not. and it can be argued that, with some degree of international recognition, that makes you a state.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 10:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Now, let me answer some questions that were raised in some of the last posts. Regarding DIREKTOR's accusation that I "repeat the same old fake arguments, supported by purposely misquoted references", here are these references: Source 1: "satellite state of Serbia", Source 2: "The other puppet state, Serbia", Source 3: "German rump state of Serbia", Source 4: "puppet state of serbia" So, how exactly these refences could be "misquoted"? Are they saying that Serbia was puppet state or not? Who ever want to say that Serbia was something else should provide valid references that would support such claims. My references are here and are properly quoted. It is DIREKTOR's turn to provide anything else instead empty rhetorics. However, due to problems that were caused by new renaming proposals, and due to the fact that some examples of proposed new names are even worst solutions than the current title, I must agree with DIREKTOR in one question: that current article title was agreed after long discussion and supported by an administrator and that, therefore, we should not change title of this article without general consensus. Sources that mention Serbia as an puppet state cannot be ignored and I will not support any change that will annihilate "state nature" of this article and that will transform it into "government of", "occupation of" , "regime of" or what ever. Speaking about occupation issue, title "Occupation of Serbia during World War II" is also not acceptable, although some modified version like "Serbia under German occupation during World War II" would be at least acceptable, but it is much worse than current title. Popular term "Nedić's Serbia" that is used in literature usually cover all aspects of this puppet state, including first government led by Aćimović and German Military administration since "Nedić's Serbia" is general name used for puppet state itself and all other issues related to local governments or administrations were something that happened within this state. Therefore, I created two new articles about two serbian governments and these articles are only subarticles that are further describing some of the issues in Nedić's Serbia. Also, situation with Norway is not interpreted in proper way. Norway existed as a state before German occupation, so article "Occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany" only describing period of German occupational administration in Norway, but we have main article about state of Norway as well. Contrary to this, puppet state of Serbia did not existed before German occupation - it was created by Germans and it ceased to exist after Germans were defeated in 1944. Also, the question of occupation of present-day territory of Serbia is something that belong to History of modern Serbia article. That is unrelated to the fact that we should have an article about historical puppet state of Serbia that existed from 1941 to 1944. PANONIAN 13:48, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

WP:POVFORKs to prejudice the discussion

User:PANONIAN has just created a "Government of National Salvation (Serbia)" article, a WP:POVFORK created to prejudice any discussion on this page - and is openly threatening to create more [1]. This is quite exemplary of the unbelievably abrasive and non-cooperative behavior displayed by the user. As opposed to discussing and presenting his arguments, the user has simply decided to "solve" this for us with a superfluous non-consensus article completely within the scope of this article. PANONIAN's "reign" over this article and his serious WP:OWN issues need to be resolved one way or the other. If this discussion is to continue in any kind of productive way this disruptive WP:POVFORK-fork war needs to be nipped in the bud. Others might've just started simply creating seperate articles in accordance with their own POV. An AfD has been posted --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:12, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, please stop disrupting my edits in Wikipedia. Renaming discussion on this page have nothing to do with new article that I created. Discussion was whether we should rename article Nedić's Serbia to some other appropriate title, but that does not change the fact that Nedić's Serbia article speaks about country (or territory if you prefer more). If we have articles about Serbia and Government of Serbia then I do not see why we cannot have articles about two governments of Nedić's Serbia (I in fact created both: Commissary Government and Government of National Salvation (Serbia)). By the way, here is evidence that Nedić's Serbia article was created by user:FrontLine in 2 May 2006 as an article about "nazi puppet state", not about "its government": http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nedi%C4%87%27s_Serbia&oldid=51137486 Furthermore, content of new articles that I created is not copy-pasted from Nedić's Serbia, but it is completely new text that I translated from listed sources. I really do not see why these lists of ministers should be deleted as user:DIREKTOR proposed. PANONIAN 10:34, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The existence of your "country" is disputed, and it is contested that it was synonymous with the Nedić government. You simply created a non-consensus WP:POVFORK, separating the two, and effectively "creating" a country from a civil government with in a German WWII Military Administration. At a stroke you "solved" the issue for us all, without consensus, - knowing full well this position is opposed and disputed. The disruptive behavior of the one user, defending his "country POV", is the primary reason why the occupation of Serbia during WWII is not adequately covered on enWiki. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The existence of an political entity named Serbia is not disputed (whether it was country or occupied territory is completely irrelevant). I see that you like rhetorical games, but can you play another game of providing sources that would support your rhetorics? I can play this game very well, so let examine what some sources would say about it: Source 1: "satellite state of Serbia", Source 2: "The other puppet state, Serbia", Source 3: "German rump state of Serbia", Source 4: "puppet state of serbia", etc, etc. This is just what could be found in quick 5 minutes long research. So, what you say? Do you have one single source that say that Serbia was not an puppet state? So, I am not defending "my country POV" but I am defending sources. Wikipedia cannot accept your unsourced rhetorics instead sourced facts, you know. PANONIAN 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

-Your objection on such grounds is frankly baffling, 'DIREKTOR'. A 'government' and a 'territory' are two different concepts.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:11, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

-in other words, this artcile should be about the territory (regardless of whether it was a 'country' on not -Reichskomissariat Ukraine has a separate article, for example, and that was not a country.) and not about the geovernment, which is, at the end of the day, merely a group of people who run said territory and not the territory itself.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it very clear that we need at least two articles: one for the German military government and another for the Serbian civil government. The name for the former is obvious (Military Administration in Serbia), the name for the latter is debatable. Nedić regime and Government of National Salvation (Serbia) do not quite cover the whole topic. Also debatable, I think, is whether we need another article on Serbia during World War II or German-occupied Serbia. I think the latter would be redundant, while the former is probably too broad a topic for us to adequately cover just as a solution to a problem with this article. Srnec (talk) 00:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

And what about article about puppet state of Serbia itself? Just compare situation with Iraq in 2003 after American invasion: there was state of Iraq, there was American occupational administration and there was Iraqi civil government. Situation is absolutely same and it is clear that neither article about German military administration or about two Serbian governments are able to fully cover the topic of WW2 puppet state. Iraqi civil governments were controlled by American occupational administration, but it is not disputed that American administration acted within state of Iraq and that state of Iraq was not annexed by USA. In the same way WW2 puppet Serbian governments were subordinated to German military administration, but this German administration acted within state of Serbia (which was not annexed by Germany either). The very name "Military Administration in Serbia" confirm what I just said and, therefore, an article about puppet state of Serbia should be "parent article" while articles about German and Serbian administrations should be only sub-articles of main article about state. PANONIAN 06:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The term "Military Administration in Serbia" does not confirm the existence of a Serb state. The statehood of Serbia during WWII is entirely summed up by accounts of the (German) military government and the (Serb) civil government. The case of Iraq is quite distinct: Iraq pre-existed the 2003 invasion and it was an internationally-recognised state. 216.8.141.134 (talk) 14:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

These sources are confirming existence of Serbian puppet state: Source 1: "satellite state of Serbia", Source 2: "The other puppet state, Serbia", Source 3: "German rump state of Serbia", Source 4: "puppet state of serbia" (or you disagree?). That, of course, have nothing to do with issue of international recognition. I never said that puppet state of Serbia was internationally recognized - it was not, of course. It was an unrecognized country and Wikipedia has many articles about unrecognized countries, so why this country should be an exception? PANONIAN 14:16, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

PANONIAN, there was no Nazi puppet Serbia, i.e. Serbs, unlike Croats, were not part of the fascist Axis. You have no sources confirming the status of Nedić's government as a "puppet state" of its own - this is what I've been telling you for months now. Your whole argument is based on your own WP:OR and (quite blatantly) misquoted sources.

I would support Srnec's proposal. Srnec, your position is more-or-less fine with me, but as things stand now the text of teh Nedić's Serbia article clearly includes the Nedić government, and there is no consensus for a separate one just yet. PANONIAN's haughty article needs to be AfD-ed before we can discuss this issue at peace.

Srnec, I agree that the "Occupation of Serbia in World War II" article may not be necessary. I would support it, but I myself am flexible on that issue. Your two-article proposal ("Nedić regime"/"Government of National Salvation" + "Military Administration in Serbia") is acceptable provided that the former of the two articles includes a section on the Aćimović regime. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 14:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, Please stop with rhetorical games!!! If I "misquoted sources", then what is this: Source 1: "satellite state of Serbia", Source 2: "The other puppet state, Serbia", Source 3: "German rump state of Serbia", Source 4: "puppet state of serbia". You will just ignore these sources and pretend that I did not posted them at all? I think that everybody now see who you are and what you doing here. Please stop wasting our time and find some other place to play. PANONIAN 14:09, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

"Iraq pre-existed the 2003 invasion and it was an internationally-recognised state" -this doesn't apply for the Independent State of Croatia eitherJWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 20:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the case of WWII Croatia is also quite different from that of 2003 Iraq. 216.8.141.134 (talk) 21:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Now, let conclude this discussion with my compromise proposal:

• 1. This article should remain under its current title and it should be general article about all things: puppet state of Serbia, German Military administration within this state and its two governments.
• 2. Article Government of National Salvation (Serbia) could be renamed to List of ministers in the Government of National Salvation (Serbia), which would not imply that this article speaks about government itself, but only about its list of ministers.

3. Article Commissary Government either remains as it is either is renamed to List of commissaries in the Commissary Government.

Since there is no general consensus that article Nedić's Serbia is split into several articles or renamed, it should remain under its current name and in current form and everybody can use their own interpretation about what exactly this article is speaking. Fair enough? PANONIAN 14:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

I do not see any consensus. Splitting this article up into each government or administration is ridiculous, there would need to be an article on the brief unorganized period of occupation, then an article on the Military Administration in Serbia, then an article on the Acimovic government, and then an article on the Nedic government; 4 articles about one territory - that is too much and duplicates too much. The most simple resolution to this dispute is to revert the article's title to "Serbia (1941–1944)", which was it's name for some time. Then the POV-forks can be removed and re-directed to this article. The term "Serbia" is appropriate, because that is what the German military authorities and the puppet regime designated this territory. The current name is too exclusive to Nedic. Plus the precedent of articles on Norway being broken up is not a good precedent, that is likely an example of POV-forking.--R-41 (talk) 16:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

R-41, I completely agree that one article with title "Serbia (1941–1944)" is indeed best possible choice, but DIREKTOR will not accept that and he will start again revert warring and rhetorical warring and we will never solve this problem. Therefore, I would rather accept current compromise solution which is at least minimally acceptable for everybody (even for DIREKTOR) instead that we all waste our time in discussing same things again and again. I doubt that we can find any solution that is acceptable for everybody. PANONIAN 16:55, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

No, the best resolution is to bring in an arbitrator, a Wikipedia administrator (who has no or little history editing this article) to provide a neutral perspective and resolve the dispute. Different options should be discussed with the arbitrator, the arbitrator will voice their view of the situation, and then if no solution has majority support, the arbitrator will make the final decision.--R-41 (talk) 21:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, I can agree with that one too, but it would be hard to find an administrator who would want to spend free time to deal with this issue. I already contacted administrators because of this article few months ago and all what I achieved was response to my third opinion request and renaming from "Nedić regime" to "Nedić's Serbia". If you think that you can achieve more than that, you are free to ask administrators for arbitration. PANONIAN 17:06, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Your problem is, admins don't do arbitration. If you want to rename an article and there's no consensus you put it up at the relevant noticeboard. Everybody sets out their positions and the closing admin decides whether there's consensus or not. That's what happened last time. If you look at the archives R-41 you will see this issue is a very long running one. You can see all the various arguments and proposals there. Personally I think the Norway solution could work - but it can't be imposed.Fainites ^barleyscribs 18:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

R-41 as I said before, while simply naming all this "Serbia" may seem an elegant solution of a sort, the title unquestionably implies that the article is about a country named "Serbia" that existed between 1941 and 1944. This is simply misleading and historically inaccurate. The complexity of this subject demands at the very least two articles to handle it properly and with regard to the facts on the ground:

• Nedić regime - (analogous to Quisling regime) about the German puppet government (that would include a section on the Aćimović government)
• Occupation of Serbia (1941-1944) - (analogous to Occupation of Poland (1939–1945) and Occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany) about the occupuied territory of Serbia, as part of the series on the history of Serbia. This article currently does not cover WWII in large portions of modern Serbia.
• Military Administration in Serbia - (anaologous to Reichskommissariat Norwegen) about the German authority.

--DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

So, DIREKTOR, you will still ignore sources that I presented? These sources are confirming that WW2 Serbia was an puppet state and any serious discussion with you is impossible until you post your comment about these sources. You may repeat 1000 times that this puppet state did not existed, by sources that I presented are more valid and more relevant than anything what you might say. PANONIAN

For the hundreth time: no PANONIAN. Wiki does not function by fishing for words on Google. We try to get to the bottom of the problem by actually reading the sources and understanding what the situation was before trying to represent it. This is what you do not understand. You found four or five googled books that use the word "state"; then what shall we say about the hundreds, even thousands of publications that do not use that word for Nedić's regime?

The simple fact, PANONIAN (which you would know if you actually read any sources about this issue), is that this territory was organized under a German Military Administration, which installed a civil government. No country, no Axis puppet, was ever officially inaugurated by Nazi Germany. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 08:44, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Would you be so kind to present exact quotation from a source from which you concluded that "No country, no Axis puppet, was ever officially inaugurated by Nazi Germany"? The way in which Wikipedia function is usage of exact quotations from reliable sources. Since you did not presented a single source that support your POV, the only possible conclusion would be that you have no any source that support your claims. And fact whether "I read something" about this issue or not is completely irrelevant. This is not discussion about me, but about correct presentation of historical data. And I did not "fished anything on Google". Google search and Google books are very different things. I presented here 4 Google books references, so please point to them (there are lot more there than "fished words") and say which part of these references is claiming that "No country, no Axis puppet, was ever officially inaugurated by Nazi Germany". Or you perhaps do not understand difference between unrecognized states and recognized ones? As for term "Nedić's regime" used in sources, user who responded to my third opinion request clearly stated that there is no basis for your interpretation of these sources and that such term refer only to regime that governed puppet state of Serbia. "Nedić's regime" is nothing else but form of Government of Serbia. Also, about what kind of "official inauguration of puppet state" you speak? Creation of that puppet state was long process and you might took date of formation of Commissary Government as a day of official inauguration of puppet state. PANONIAN 19:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Does this help?

What remained ofYugoslavia after the various annexations, redemptions and restorations was called by the Germans the "Serbian residual state" and kept under their control.....It had no status other than that of occupied territory....On 1 May the German military commander appointed a low-grade Serbian Administration of ten commissioners who were put in charge of ministries,under the control of Turner and Neruhausen, as a simple instrument of the occupation regime. It was headed by the commissioner in charge of the Interior Ministry, Milan Acimovic - a former Belgrade police chief....The main task of his administration was to get the population to accept obedience to the Germans...

Pavlowitch,Hitlers New Disorder: The Second World War in Yugoslavia p 49-51. Fainites ^barleyscribs 09:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

And what is exactly POV (they are just bare lists) and what is exactly FORK (they don't duplicate any contents from this article) in Commissary Government and Government of National Salvation (Serbia) articles? For the most part, they document the list of ministers who served in these two governments. I don't even think that they should be merged here, because there's just too much dry information there. And I don't see how that "prejudices" the discussion, since we have discussed the matter ad nauseam and came to a consensus (which Direktor don't seem to agree with, but that does not make it much less of a consensus). Direktor, this looks to me like bickering for the sake of bickering. No such user (talk) 11:08, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

How about three articles;

• Occupation of Serbia in WWII which covers what happened to the whole of Serbia when the Germans invaded and dismembered it.
• Military administration of Serbia in WWII The Germans
• Civil administration of Serbia in WWII covers Nedic, Acimovic, Commissioners, "Government of National Salvation" etc etc etc. A nice neat set. Fainites ^barleyscribs 12:43, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I Agree with Fainites, but just this, What will be with this article? Where will be renamed? What will be the main article about Serbia? --WhiteWriter ^speaks 13:03, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

It's just an idea from reading the talkpage. I assumed this article would be subsumed in the Civil Admin article.Fainites ^barleyscribs 13:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Fainites, your proposal is totally unacceptable. Sources that confirmed existence of puppet state of Serbia are quoted and therefore you cannot just delete this article that speaks about that puppet state and leave only those that are speaking about its governments. It would be same if you delete article Serbia and leave only article Government of Serbia instead. Also creation of one article named "Occupation of Serbia in WWII" that would speak about territory of present-day Serbia during WW2 would be a true example of POVFORK since this issue is clearly elaborated in History of Serbia article. Also proposed article "Military administration of Serbia in WWII" that would speak about Germans have no any point. What would you mention there? List of German military administrators? Do you at least have a source that mention these administrators? That article is pointless, and it could exist only as subarticle of puppet state article. I will repeat my previous point: post-2003 American occupation was in Iraq (and Iraq was not in this occupation). As for "Civil administration of Serbia in WWII", I created separate articles about both governments and I think that it is better solution than to have single article about both. PANONIAN 13:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

And Fainites, please tell me one valid and logical reason why you want to annihilate this article about historical puppet state. Would you also say that such state did not existed? PANONIAN 13:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't want to annihilate anything. It was a suggestion based on my reading of the talkpage, Pavlowitch and Ramet. I understand your point, but the article I proposed, ie "Civil adminstration of Serbia" does say "Serbia". It is difficult to know what to call a left over rump, scarcely worthy of the ID "quisling". How about Serbian rump state WWII. Pavlowitch says the germans called it the "Serbian residual state" which means pretty much the same thing. Not sure what the original german word was. Ramet calls it "the rump Serbian state" and says Nedic's efforts to create Serbian national state with it were a failure as all he could really do was ratify german decisions. Ramet quotes him as saying "...we lost our freedom and our state,and now we are facing the danger of national extinction....I came into government to save the people, to keep them from destrying each other...". "Rump" meaning remnant is in legitimate modern political usage. See here for a historical usage still used today, and of course Ramet. Ramet is not the only one who uses it. Fainites ^barleyscribs 15:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

In fact I've just found this article List of rump states , which does indeed list Serbia.Fainites ^barleyscribs 15:30, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Fainites, No such user, WhiteWriter. Though since the Aćimović "Commissary Government" was only in place for three months, had no military units, and really played a quite marginal role altogether, I still would much prefer it if we incorporated it into the article about the Nedić "Government of National Salvation" as a seperate section. It seems more elegant imo than to rename an article that would essentially be on the Nedić regime into the "Civil administration of Serbia in WWII" article (there were of course only these two civil governments, the 3-month initial Aćimović Commissary Government and the Nedić Government of National Salvation that lasted for the remainder of the War in Serbia).

Hence I propose that the "Civil administration of Serbia in WWII" article be named the "Nedić regime" article (the WP:COMMONNAME of the "Government of National Salvation") with the short-lived Aćimović "Commisary Government" incorporated therein as a section. But that's just a proposal of course.

In closing I'll once again point out that both the "Commissary Government" and the "Government of National Salvation (Serbia)" articles have been created in the past few days with the sole purpose of assisting User:PANONIAN in this discussion. They should be merged into the one article on the civil administration (whatever name it ends up having). Its hardly bickering for the sake of bickering, imho, when someone just starts creating articles with their necessity a subject of serious discussion. While we were all discussing how to handle this, PANONIAN simply went ahead with his preferred organization. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:27, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Fine, boys, if any of you choose violence as a way of solving this issue then I will have to ask administrators for intervention and I will use all legal means to prevent that POV pushing and unsourced original research prevail in opposition to sources that I (and only I) presented in this discussion. So, let repeat this: puppet state of Serbia existed and that is confirmed by reliable sources: Source 1: "satellite state of Serbia", Source 2: "The other puppet state, Serbia", Source 3: "German rump state of Serbia", Source 4: "puppet state of serbia". Therefore if anybody of you try to annihilate this article I will report you to administrators for nothing less than vandalism. PANONIAN 19:35, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Violence? Through computer screens? PANONIAN, this is naming dipute. Disagreeing about naming is not vandalism. I shall act to prevent edit warring by editors moving articles back and forth until consensus is reached. Bear in mind that consensus does not involve unanimity. If we take the best two of your sources Panonian,ie Tomasevic and Fischer,they both say"puppet state". We seem to have a choice between "puppet" or "rump".Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

It is much more than naming dispute. This is question whether an article about an historical puppet state will exist or not. Therefore, complete annihilation of this article is an example of vandalism. It is one thing if you think that article about puppet state should have another name and completely different thing if you say that only article about government should exist, but not article about state itself. In first case I would have nothing against titles "Serbian rump state WWII" or "Serbian puppet state WWII", but title "Civil administration of Serbia" is unacceptable since it change the basic concept of this article and it imply that there was no state but only government. It is not enough that title only have name "Serbia" in it, but it should have meaning that undoubtedly claim that this article speaks about puppet state. PANONIAN 21:45, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh. I would have thought the fact that it had "Serbia" in the title avoided that. Anyway -nobody is committing "vandalism" so please moderate your tone a little. The title Serbian puppet state WWII or Puppet state of Serbia WWII (or "rump") could solve a lot of problems. What does everyone else think? Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I did not said that "somebody is committing vandalism", but that "somebody might commit it". That is not same thing. PANONIAN 21:57, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Alternative

May I suggest an alternative? It seems to me that the issue is firstly whether Serbia was a puppet regime or a puppet state, and secondly whether a puppet or rump state is a state. In other words whether a puppet/rump state can simply be called "Serbia" in the title without further qualification or description. The fact that this argument could not be resolved last time resulted in the compromise "Nedic's Serbia" rather than "Nedic's regime". Until we can resolve this, the article should not be renamed. Can each participant please set out here, with sources, their concise argument,without personalisation, as to why they say the entity was a state or not. PANONIAN has cite 4 perfectly worthy books which use the word "state", although they are not books that deal in detail with the specific time period and the word is always qualified by "rump" or "puppet". I have cited Ramet and Pavlowitch. If anybody thinks that is a daft argument altogether as the Germans never followed established norms in these matters, they could say that too. If we can resolve that, agreeing the right name might become possible.Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

PANONIANs sources;

• "satellite state of Serbia" The history of Serbia : John K. Cox
• "The other puppet state, Serbia, was kept under a formal German military government" Contemporary Yugoslavia: Jozo Tomasevich, Wayne S.Vucinich
• "German rump state in Serbia", Armed Peacekeepers in Bosnia
• "...a puppet state of Serbia was created...",Balkan strongmen: dictators and authoritarian rulers of South Eastern Europe Аутор: Bernd Jürgen Fischer

Fainites sources;

• "What remained of Yugoslavia after the various annexations, redemptions and restorations was called by the Germans the "Serbian residual state" and kept under their control.....It had no status other than that of occupied territory", Pavlowitch; Hitlers New Disorder
• "the rump Serbian state" Ramet; Three Yugoslavias

Sources;

So, your sources only confirming my point that it was state. Whether we will use terms "puppet", "residual", "rump", "satellite" (or whatever) as a description of this state is completely irrelevant. Facts are clear: all sources that were presented are claiming that Serbia was state and there is no single source that claim that there was "only government without state". There is simply no proof, no argument and no source for opposite claims. PANONIAN 21:54, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Not yet. I am waiting to see whether any other sources are produced in this section -preferably without too much intervening TLDR argument. Tomasevic, Pavlowitch, Ramet and Fischer are a pretty strong team. The more important issue in my view is whether a puppet state can simply be described as a state without qualification. Fainites ^barleyscribs 21:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

So, you use qualification then (any qualification you want). Any title that does not drastically change subject of this article is fully acceptable. PANONIAN 22:06, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

What is funny is that we all seem to agree (±10%), and sources seem to agree, on the basic facts, yet we drag this dispute over and over; somewhat resembling the color of the bikeshed problem. The catch is that there is no really a common name for this entity either in sources or in common parlance, so we (editors) are basically free to pick a descriptive title... and there we fail to agree on one, because every proposal so far had one problem or another, be it precision, POV, or aesthetics. As I said before, I don't like "Nedić's Serbia" too much, but it's almost as good as any. As Panonian said, "Any title that does not drastically change subject of this article is fully acceptable".

So I did a little research... There are 11 redirects starting with Nazi occupation of..., covering similar situations like in Serbia, and each of those ends up in an article named using different style. The most common one (applied to Belarus, Norway and Baltic republics) is "Occupation of X by Nazi Germany". Then, there's German occupation of..., also all redirects, many of which end up in "Occupation of X" articles (which is not applicable for Serbia because of ambiguity).

In other words, there is no established rule or model. Based on our article's contents, I would propose "Occupation of Serbia by Nazi Germany" (which follows some kind of established practice) or "Serbia under German occupation" (which focuses a bit more on Serbia than on occupation). Or pretty much any other, just let us stop wasting so much time. No such user (talk) 06:44, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I would not agree with title "Occupation of Serbia by Nazi Germany" because it is focused on occupation, not on Serbia. If puppet state of Serbia existed (and presented sources confirming that it did) then Wikipedia must have an article focused on puppet state of Serbia. Therefore your second proposal "Serbia under German occupation" would be acceptable. I have only one basic point in all this: there must be an article focused on puppet state of Serbia and it is this article (everybody can see that it was created as such: [2]). So, I will repeat this too: if anybody thinks that there should be an article focused on "occupation", "military administration", "civil administration" (or whatever) he should create new article about that without attempt that focus of this article is changed. PANONIAN 07:54, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

  Nazi Germany

  Areas under German and/or Axis occupation

  German allies, co-belligerents, and puppet states

  Allied-held areas

  Neutral countries

@PANONIAN, you and your preconceptions (supported by word-fishing on Google) are the only reason this nonsense issue even exists. The status of Nedić's government and the situation in this occupied territory is chrystal clear. Could not be any clearer. This terriory had in essence the same status in Nazi Europe as northern France, Greece, Norway, Denmark, etc. Read any serious treatment, Pavlowitch, Tomasevich, whomever, they will all say the same thing. This is a manufactured, non-factual dispute.

We should not labor under the idea that PANONIAN has some sources to his claim. The situation on the ground, as well as Wikipedia naming conventions, are clear as day, and ALL sources essentially agree and say the same thing. If some use the word "state" to refer to the territory - that does not change what it was.
In other words, it is irrelevant whether a few sources choose to use the word "state" to refer to Nedić's government: firstly calling it a state does not make it one and WP:NC applies; secondly (and more importantly) - PANONIAN's entire method of "research" is biased, in that it disregards the hundreds of sources that simply do not use the word "state" and imposes on them the two or three fished-out sources that do.

I'll say again, the situation on the ground is clear: no puppet state called "Serbia" was ever officially inagurated by Nazi Germany. That is a fantasy. Period. This is a manufactured dispute over one user's preconceptions. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:07, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

@DIREKTOR. "no puppet state called 'Serbia' was ever officially inagurated by Nazi Germany. That is a fantasy." -evidence please? You keep on stating this, over and over again, but don't seem to be able to come up with any evidenceJWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 12:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh please, this is the most basic stuff on WWII Yugoslavia. Evidence on the status of this territory has already been provided, numerous times - most recently above by No such user. But if you would like more, Read any, ANY elaboration on the status of this territory, for example Tomasevich Volume II p.175. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:46, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, and can you provide any? Because so far, you haven't. "Evidence on the status of this territory has already been provided, numerous times" -no, you have conflicting secondary sources that say different things about the satus of the territory.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:22, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

You are not reading my posts, and your participation thus far is unconstructive. I have already pointed out two sources, and explained where others can be found. I have also pointed out two seperate reasons why PANONIAN's "word-fishing" is irrelevant and has no effect on the actual situation in the territory (which we must try to describe). There is, in reality, no contradiction or diagreement in the sources about the status of this territory. I will not respond to further posts such as the above. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 13:31, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

DIREKTOR you make very bold and definite assertions regarding sources but have not yet had the courtesy, despite repeated requests, to produce any, other than to say "Tomasevic Volume II p175" today. This page runs from May 2011 and you have produced no other sources. Please be so good as to set out the relevent passage or provide a link. Secondly, so far, all the sources produced by others say "puppet" or "rump" state. Can you give a good reason why this article should not called Puppet state of Serbia WWII or something similar? Finally, your characterisation of Panonian as "word-fishing", of which you also accused him further up the page, is either mischievous or you have not read the talkpage. Either way it is disruptive and unwarranted. Panonian has produced quotes from and links too 4 perfectly sensible mainstream sources as clearly set out twice by him and once again by me.Fainites ^barleyscribs 14:46, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, DIREKTOR, you maybe "pointed out two sources" (presumably Pavlowitch and Tomasevich?), but you did not provided any quotations from such sources. We need quotations not description of "what you think that these authors wanted to say". Without quotations you did not proved anything. And self-made created by Wikipedia user is also not evidence for anything. PANONIAN 14:43, 15 July 2011 (UTC)