Talk:Shakespeare authorship question

Simplify the article!

There is too much talk and little gist in the current article. The only thing that matters is the boot-shaped country.

1., Commoner William Shaksper of Stratford has never been to Italy. 2., The italian-themed "Shakspeare" works were written by a person who had been to Italy for a lenghty period. 3., Game over for stratfordians! 4., Optionally choose your favourite Oxenford or else to take the commoners place.

This is about as much as anybody needs to know about the authorship issue and any further words are futile. Computerized textual analysis proves the royal dramas about the english kings were written by the same person who wrote the italian-themed plays, therefore W.S. remains merely an amateur theatre performer and the real bard was? (probably Oxford). 87.97.98.167 (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Nice and short. I like it. I will replace the current article with your concise version as soon as you explain to my satisfaction how you came to know point 2. Bishonen | talk 23:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC).

And indeed how you know 1. Paul B (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

George Wilkins

The section on "Personal testimonies by contemporaries" includes the sentence "Inn-keeper and part-time dramatist and pamphleteer George Wilkins collaborated with Shakespeare in writing Pericles, Prince of Tyre, with Wilkins writing the first half and Shakespeare the second" Surely this needs some qualification. At least something like "believed by some authorities to have collaborated" needs to be inserted. In any case it is not an example of a "Personal testimony" and probably doesn't belong in this section. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 00:34, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

No one has defended the Wilkins section since I highlighted the problem. I am hesitant to delete as the author is obviously more knowledgeable than I am. I will give it another few days- till 10 December. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 08:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Check the article. The section was deleted the very day you suggested it [1]. There is no longer any Wilkins section! However, the known personal link between Wilkins and Shakespeare plus the good evidence of collaboration is relevant, though maybe too specific to include here. Paul B (talk) 10:37, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

You are quite correct about Wilkins ,Tigerboy. And beware the term "inn-keeper" Wilkins was a plain pimp and at least once convicted in court of viciously beating one of his tricks.Some of the documents were discovered a hundred years ago by Alfred Wallace who discreetly printed them only in a publication from his local university.Leslie Hotson discovered a second document linking Shakspere (to use Will's own preferred spelling) to the skin trade and other gangland connections(Leslie Hotson"Shakespeare vs. Shallow" 1936)but Hotson chose to ignore the obvious link to the earlier Wallace discoveries.These were fully utilized by Alden Brooks in "Will Shakspere,Factotum and Agent"(1937),"Will Shakspere and the Dyer's Hand"(1943),and "The Other Side of Shakespeare"(1963) and incorporated by myself into John Michel"s "Who Wrote Shakespeare?"(1995).Diana Price independently arrived at exactly the same conclusions a couple of years later.

In 2008 Stratfordian Charles Nichol published a book length documentation entitled "The Lodger",which was most enthusiastically received by the main stream press but not by David Kathman and his ever faithful Tom Reedy over at Hlas and at their definitely non-"mainstream" Shakespeare Authorship Page.They are still printing the Wilkins was an inn-keeper blarney.

By the way,a considerable number of apparent Shakespeare lines show up in the Wilkins novel,"Pericles".If the appearance of Shakespearean matter there proves that Shakespeare collaborated with Wilkins than Paul should be arguing,if he is in any way capable of consistent logical argumentation,that the novel was likewise a collaboration between Shakespeare and Wilkins.

I have posted this information before but Tom keeps censoring it in hopes of concealing their slight intellectual mendacity.

Hope you get to read this before it goes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles Darnay (talk • contribs) 22:26, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Well well well. If it isn't my old buddy from out of the past. I thought that was you when I read your first comments on the Alden Brooks page, but I wasn't sure until now. I read an interesting paper of yours just yesterday about the history of Baconism in the Oxfordian, I believe it was. Your essays at least have the virtue of not being boring, which is rare for anti-Stratfordian literature.

I'll look up the Hotson paper; it sounds interesting, but Wilkins is referred to as a victualler and tavern keeper by Nicholl, see pp. 198-9. Why you find it surprising that an actor, playwright, and theatre sharer would rub shoulders with prostitutes, pimps, and gangsters is beyond me; the industry is still full to bursting with them. And just FYI, every comment and every edit on Wikipedia is archived and readily accessible by clicking on the "history" tab or the archive page link. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:21, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Obviously the novel was a de facto collaboration between Wilkins and Shakespeare, even if Shakespeare was not personally involved in its publication. As for whether or not Wilkins was a pimp, what difference does it make to his or Shakespeare's authorship? Is there some law that says pimps can't write? Paul B (talk) 19:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I had a look at Hotson. Fascinating stuff. There's nothing in there that I can see about "the skin trade". Why you seem fixated on commercial sex is something of a mystery. Hotson's evidence suggests that a dispute between the thoroughly unpleasant William Gardiner and the slightly dodgy Francis Langley got out of hand and Shakespeare got caught up in it. Big deal. Paul B (talk) 20:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing my attention to the change.Tigerboy1966 (talk) 03:46, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Can some good soul here point non-initiated novices on where to look for/(find?) the "Hotson paper" being alluded to above? Thanks. warshy^talk 00:48, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

It's called Shakespeare versus Shallow. It was published as a book, and can be found in several libraries. It can also be read online in whole or in part. [2] [3]. There is a summary of the argument on the Francis Langley page. Paul B (talk) 01:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I got the book today from the remote stacks and have been reading it. So where's the gangland connection? I haven't found it yet. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:57, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

It's a bit of a mystery. I guess you promote Gardiner and his hapless stepson Wayte to the status of a mafia don and his henchman. With a bit of imagination Lee and Soer can become gum-chewing gangster's molls, on the basis of zero evidence. Paul B (talk) 12:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much! warshy^talk 02:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Paul glad to see that you now realize the well known Elizabethan researcher, Leslie Hotson (who previously discovered the Marlowe inquest) is not a Hodson and Tom has discovered that he did not write a pamphlet.As there are only two Shakespeare documents discovered by Stratfordians in the past hundred years it is well to know both of them.

Moreover, since you admit that you are quick reading (you would have to renounce neo-Stratfordianism entirely if you ever took up thoughtful reading) it is, perhaps, understandable that you fail to differentiate between a book and the document contained in the book.The document is a complaint filed by William Gardiner of attempted murder. He accuses Francis Langley, William Shakspere(Kathman used to believe this was another gentleman of the same name), Anne Lee who lives in an alley by the Clink and Dorothy Soer.

Gardiner may well be lying (as Heminge and Condell may well be lying when they claim they received manuscripts from the author exactly as he conceived them, no George Wilkins or Tom Middleton or John Fletcher to their recollection) in accusing a female resident of an alley and a second woman(whose husband sent in his own lawyers to explain that his wife was on her own) when he accuses them of murder,but he is definitely intends to designate them as what you not incorrectly term "molls"

Francis Langley. There is far too small a commentary but you will find the few Strats or anti-Strats out there generally regard this as some kind of shakedown; they just what exactly was going on. Langley filed a counter complaint that he was the one in danger of his life, but you may recall that he took up show business after being forced (as I recollect with no document at hand)out of government service.The pot is calling the kettle black. Sounds like gangland to me. Though who the spiders and who the flies is anybody's tossup. Certainly nobody would a widow on Gardiner's evidence. There's a life of FL written in the late seventies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles Darnay (talk • contribs)

There was no complaint of attempted murder. The phrase "for fear of death and so forth" is standard formula used in writs of attachment. Since you seem to delight in trivial slips, some of which are not slips at all, then I shall point out that it was William Wayte who made the complaint, not Gardiner. And Langley did not file a counter complaint. He filed first. You have your facts all over the place. As has been pointed out many times "the swearing of peace bonds was frequently undertaken tit for tat", as O'Dell says, so the so-called threat from Langley, WS and the women is probably meaningless. We all know that Pericles was not part of the Folio, nor was Two Noble Kinsmen. In other words H&C chose those works which were mostly Shakespeare's work. What do you expect? So I made a typo, accidentally writing Hodson insted of Hotson for a brief period. Why do you crow about this triviality? It's not as if your own contributions are not full of typos and factual errors. Yes, of course the Gardiner/Langley conflict may have been "some kind of shakedown", but we don't know what kind and it was initiated by Gardiner. But the reality is that we don't know what it was about. However, Hotson is clear that we have no reason whatever to take the view that the women concerned were "molls" or anything else. Hotson implies they were probably connected with the theatre in some way. His best guess is a landlady and a maid. Where you get the idea we know what street Anne Lee lived in I've no idea. Hotson was not able to identify either woman and makes several suggestions. I suspect you just make up stuff. Joseph Pearce states that Anne Lee was the wife of Roger Lee. The couple were noted for their activities in the Catholic cause, especially hiding Catholic priests. How Pearce knows this is a mystery to me. He just asserts it. Paul B (talk) 01:48, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul:" Since you seem to delight in trivial slips, some of which are not slips at all."In that case they must be mendacious. " So I made A typo, accidentally writing Hodson insted of Hotson FOR A BRIEF PERIOD".Hmm. So you pushed the trigger once and it just kept firing?

since you had never Look,Paul.you are not talking to Sranley Wells or even Tom Reedy here.I can well understand that you didn't catch the name of an author of a book of which you had just learned existed.I am concerned that(a) you and Reedy,whose been the eys and ears of David Kathman for nearly ten years, never knew the document existed before and (b)when you did get around to scanning the book you merely reiterated seventy year old,and rather inane,conjectures by Hotson.

I've got my facts turned around?You've got the order of what you allege to be facts turned around .You admit,"it was initiated by Gardiner" therefore Langley countered with his complaint.Wayte was then sent in on behalf of his Uncle.No, I was not making any mistake on either count of your indictment.

Moreover,I recollect (though you have seen the Langley compaint more recently than I) that it is Gardiner-Wayte who first drag Shakspere,the estranged Madame. Soer and Widow Lee in as co-defendants.

The manager of the theater is listed next to Will Shakspere so Hotson does think that the case has "something" to do with the theater.Well,they weren't actresses,they were not shareholders,may be they held the toffee apple concession in the "lobby".There is exactly one steady relationship which women whose husbands were no longer responsible for them held in the Elizabethan theater.To paraphrase Soer's position,contra Hotson's,"That was no lady. That was my wife."

As you well know, Henslowe kept the accounts of his brothels right in with his other theatrical accounts and son-in-law Ned took the best tapestries from one of the brothels straight into Dulwhich college when he decided to endow that worthy institution.Why Hotson was puzzled by what the connection could be surpasses understanding.

"There was no complaint of attempted murder. The phrase 'for fear of death and so forth' is standard formula used in writs of attachment." Yes,which is handy for the posthumous reputation of a lot of homicidal Elizabethans show people.In fact you recently posted a short list of such on another thread erroneously implying that I was not aware of the same.The circumstances here warranr the harsher (and by no means uncommon interpretation.

I can understand why gentle,almost Victorian, Hotson wanted to back off but you and Reedy?Why stop ye now for breath? Suc(,on the basis of FL's overall record) was the interpretation of Langley's biographer who escaped the unpleasant inferences by raising the mistaken identity defense(which we hear a lot around here),i.e. it wasn't Shakespeare bur another gentleman of the same name. At least that's where I think David Kathman derived it when he raised it at the debate we held in Los Angeles about ten years ago. The only thing for which I might need to apologize is Anne Lee's domicile but I expect to find she can be placed very close to the Clink and the word "alley" comes in there somewhere,I always correct misstatements. Speaking of which(and getting us back on topic at long last) you wrote,"We all know that Pericles was not part of the Folio, nor was Two Noble Kinsmen. IN OTHER WORDS H&C chose those works which were MOSTLY Shakespeare's work.." The "other" whose words these are is yourself and they speak for yourself alone.H&C or(as Malone found on cogent grounds) Ben Jonson pretending to be H&C)claimed they had received the copies which they were printing from the author perfect as he conceived them. None of this most of this or most of that.

When Brian Vickers first resurrected these very old attributions,the Kathman Reedy blog nearly deafened themselves with a chorus of denials.Further if,just once,you would read a little more pensively you would find that I did not say any specific attribution was correct as a I quite accurately compared the Heminge-Condell-Shakspere situation to the Langley-Shakespeare-Gardiner situation.We do not know to what extent any of them were telling the truth.Charles Darnay (talk) 21:24, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You can write gibberish such as "since you had never Look,Paul.you are not talking to Sranley Wells" and then spend several sentences making a big issue about the fact that I briefly typed Hodson before correcting it to Hotson. O tempora o mores. Gardiner "initiated" it because of the actions that led Langley to file the suit. If there was any shakedown he was doing the shaking. The order is clear in the sources and you have got it totally, utterly, completely wrong. Langley filed a complaint against Gardiner then his agent Wayte filed against Langley et al. Read the book. I've no idea what Kathman said, nor do I care. I will not contiue to discuss this here since it has nothing to do with the article. If you want to thrash over the details on your talk page I am happy to do so. Paul B (talk) 22:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

"Since you have never HEARD,Paul." For once we are able to acknowledge that you have a valid ground for complaint..Unlike you efforts to rewrite the Gardiner=Wayte complaint or even worse rewrite Hemine and Condell or-as Malone perceptivelly maintained-Jonson writing as Heminge and Condell.

"ReAD THE BOOK".We were trying to staert a discussion on George Wilkins and we cited the most pertinent contemporary document available Shakspere in 1597 was mixed up in a "business" entterprise with a mawd and a procuress(the "widow" can play the role) and a very fewe years later he is having breakfast at his lodging house with this bawdmaster who just happens to drop in.

Next we find him acting as go between for the landlady's daughter."Sweet Little Mary Mountjoy".(I forget if this phrase comes from Alfred Wallace or J.Q.Adams).Either way the groom takes "sweet little Mary" for a honeymoney at George Wilkins"s inn cum brothel or brothel cum inn as you like it.Even by today's standards ,so far as they may be said to exist,this is pretty kinky stuff.

Later.The infeerence Wilkins shows up at the Globe which runs two of his notably untalanted productions.The inference is obvious that lead stockholder Shakspere was payin off some unknown favor

The Globe successfully runs a show called "Pericles"(there is at least one piece of internal evidence concerning Charles Blount,8th Lord Mpontjoy,which strongly suggests it was written not later that the earlier 1605) in 1607-1608 1608.or earlier.An edition billed as by William Shakespeare.solo appears shortly thereafter.Heminge and Condell dismiss it(and many other Shakespeare editions) as inauthentic.We do not know whether or not the Quarto represents the same version previously played at the Globe

 The Heminge and Condell(or Ben Jonson) statement held until Victorian times when a major effort was made to give the first three acts in toto to Wilkins.A major against this was the obvious one that a major dramatist like Shakespeare wouldn't be caught dead collaborating with a miserable hack like Wilkins.Then came the Alfred Wallace documents in 1010.

Personally,I think Will sold ,or swaped for unknown considerations, somebody else's manuscript(written at latest early 1605) with old pal Wilkins.However,Paul,you stated sometime back before you became obsessed ny Leslie Hotson's admittedly fascinating book,that you could advance evidence(though somewhat complex) that Will was collaborating with Wilkins in the text as we have it.If so you would have an excellent argument for a Shakspere authorship.The first oone that I would have seen here.

By all means advance it. I positively won't heckle you or even say anything until you are through.

Paul:"I've no idea what Kathman said, NOR DO I CARE."

Just a minute ,don't you receently what you just wrote about Dave over oon the biography of Oxford thread.Don't you know that Stanley WQlls has made David an international authority on the authorship questiion? And Kathman will soon appear in three further officiallly sponsered British publications as their authorship expert.

They couldn't find a better in the entire British Isles.You can't buck authorities like this.And Reedy will shortly be butting in here to inform you of said fact.

Trotsky was booted from the Soviet Union when he started talking like this.Never mind what other sad things happened to him.

Missing Sentence 

In the second paragraph of Shakespeare authorship question#Sir Francis Bacon part of a sentence is missing. It's between Sir Toby Matthew and Jesuit Southwell; a citaiton/footnote seems also to be damaged. Buchraeumer (talk) 17:30, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

That was introduced by one of Tom's edits. I've tried to give what I think was the intended sense and cited the Feil article, which first argued that Matthew was referring to Thomas Southwell. Paul B (talk) 20:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Looking good

As much as I abhor the edit warring and the incivility which has gone before, I must say... the article actually looks pretty good now! --GentlemanGhost (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's amazing what can be done to a page when edit warring stops and peace reigns for the first time since its creation!

Thanks for the kind words. If you have the time, your input would be appreciated at the peer review.

Cheers GG. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Need to discuss edits

Nina, I welcome any edits or suggestions that tighten up the accuracy of this article, but you should discuss edits to this page, since almost every change is subject to challenge on this type of page. As per the Wadsworth cite, a vast conspiracy certainly falls under the category of "some type of conspiracy", and neither does he say all conspiracies are such. Also please double check your page numbers; all cites have to be accurate so that reviewers can check them easily.

One item I wish you would help with is the summary of the Oxford case. It is around 750 words right now, which is really about 50 words too much. Anything you could do to condense it further and weed out any inaccuracies would be appreciated, but it has to be a description of the case, not an argument for it. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina I asked you to please discuss any changes on the talk page. Ogburn is not the only anti-Start who makes that argument. This article is a tertiary source, and Ogburn is a primary source as far as this article is concerned, so the statements pertaining to the SAQ arguments have to be cited from secondary sources. You might want to take a look at how this article looked a year ago; that's what we don't want. We also don't want any edit warring, so please discuss your edits when they might be subject to challenge. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

You cannot delete sources, leave only one, and then write "according to [that one source]". The statements you attribute to Shapiro are cited in Schoenbaum and other sources. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:04, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Standards of Evidence Reedy writes: "By contrast, academic Shakespeareans and literary historians rely on the documentary evidence in the form of title page attributions, government records such as the Stationers' Register and the Accounts of the Revels Office, and contemporary testimony from poets, historians, and those players and playwrights who worked with him, as well as modern stylometric studies, all of which converge to confirm William Shakespeare's authorship.[24]"

This is false, as there is no documentary evidence whatever that William Shakspeear of Stratford wrote anything at all. In fact, no literary manuscripts in his hand exist. Bibliographic evidence - such as title page attributions - does not constitute documentary evidence. Modern stylometric studies are also not documentary evidence, but analyses of bibliographic materials (the printed plays and poems) conducted by scholars. Further, there is no "testimony" by Shakespeare's contemporaries in legal documents that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the plays, poems and sonnets--there is the "testimony" of legal records of a William Shakespeare as an actor and theater investor-owner, but not playwright. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.176.71.250 (talk) 05:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

There are in fact title page attributions, government records such as the Stationers' Register and the Accounts of the Revels Office, and contemporary testimony from poets, historians, and those players and playwrights who worked with him—all which are classified as documentary evidence by historians. Tom Reedy (talk) 09:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I'm happy to discuss specific edits, but it's a lengthy and time-consuming process, and what seems to be needed, according to IronHand's comments on the Peer Review page is an overhaul of the entire article to make it more neutral:

Comments from Ironhand41 This article is not written from a neutral point of view and therefore is not ready for peer review. First, it is biased rhetoric. For example, the authors of the article go to some length to make those who don't accept the traditional attribution look odd and quirky by using negative adjectives to describe them. Second, the article casts the dispute as between academics and non academics. But there are a few academics who agree with the doubters and their number is growing. Additionally, there is a significant list of non academic intellectuals who have looked into the controversy and decided that the academics have it all wrong. The "us-versus-them" framework of the article as presently written creates a false dichotomy. Good arguments don't rely on appeals to authority and the claim that scholars and academics are neutral is an insult to anyone who has attended a university. Third, there are those of us who don't have a large stake in the authorship controversy, but whose interest and participation has increased precisely because of the underhanded ways a few academics and traditionalists have attempted to skew the argument in their favor. It would seem that waving a hand and declaring there is no doubt about who wrote the Canon doesn’t work well anymore. This probably explains Plan B; the effort to dress the skeptics’ arguments in a Stratfordian pinafore and claim with a straight face that it represents a neutral point of view.

I think you might be surprised at the extent to which you and I agree on many of the major issues concerning the authorship question. For example, for years I've been perhaps THE strongest opponent of the Prince Tudor theory and any of its variations because of the lack of historical evidence for it. I therefore find it odd that the SAQ article (and Shapiro's book) give the Prince Tudor theory such prominence without citing Christopher Paul's article which refutes it on the historical evidence (Shapiro cites Paul's article on p. 313 ('For an Oxfordian critique of the theory etc.'), but doesn't even mention evidence against the Prince Tudor theory in the text of his book). If anything will eventually overwhelm the Stratfordian position on the authorship, it's acceptance by the general public of the Prince Tudor theory when Roland Emmerich's film Anonymous is released next year. Hardy Cook realized this, and asked on his Shaksper list for suggestions for strategies which academics could use when the film is released. In the interest of neutrality, the SAQ article should mention the evidence against the PT theory, not merely the claims for it.

But on a more general note, it seems to me that the SAQ article doesn't come to grips in a neutral way with the real issue, which is the fact that the reason the controversy has existed for so long, and simply won't go away, is that although the evidence in historical documents for Shakespeare of Stratford's career as an actor and theatre shareholder is strong (a strength in the Stratfordian position which Shapiro barely mentions), the documentary evidence for Shakespeare of Stratford as the author of plays and poems is much weaker, and subject to endless argument because when Stratfordians argue that a particular document (such as an entry in the Stationers' Register) refers to Shakespeare of Stratford as the author of plays and poems, anti-Stratfordians argue that it refers to the pen-name. The SAQ article doesn't really focus on these two key points.

On another more general note, it seems to me that the SAQ article is living in the past. I haven't read Wadsworth, but however valuable his book might have been in 1958, it's not going to be read much today by anyone. Even Schoenbaum is pretty outdated. Shapiro now holds the field, and although his defense of the Stratfordian position is strangely weak, he provides a good overview of the authorship controversy.

I definitely don't want to get into revert wars, so if there could be some agreement by editors of this page on the two general key points mentioned above, we could all edit along the same lines without having to discuss each individual edit on the Discussion page beforehand, and if a problem develops because of a particular edit, that edit could move to the Discussion page and be reverted until agreement is reached. What do you think?

NinaGreen (talk) 15:58, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I've noted your comments below on this topic. Since the main problem with the page seems to be neutrality, I've deleted the non-neutral personal comments from the lengthy footnote on the 'fringe theory', and added a 'citation needed' note. The fact that Alan Nelson knows no-one in a particular organization who supports an anti-Stratfordian authorship theory can't be cited in a neutral Wikipedia article as a reliable source, and in any event, Alan knows Dr. Dan Wright, who runs the authorship studies program at Concordia, and presumably Dr. Wright belongs to the organization in question, so the accuracy of Alan's statement is debatable, even putting aside the issue of neutrality. And David Kathman's statement that most university professors devote as much attention to the subject as they do to creationism is belied by the 2007 New York Times survey which found that 72% of those surveyed covered the authorship issue in their classes.NinaGreen (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I've also removed the Dobson footnote which termed the authorship controversy 'an accident waiting to happen'. It's statements such as this which give the article its non-neutral tone. I've left the Bate citation in the footnote.NinaGreen (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina, you can't remove WP:RS references that directly support a statement and then tag it with "citation needed". Tom Reedy (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, as I've said in the section below, I don't want to get into revert wars over this. The issue is not whether these are reliable sources. The issue is whether the statements quoted from those sources comply with Wikipedia's policy of neutrality. The SAQ article will never get past peer review, never mind be granted FA status, unless it's neutral. Would it be better if you went through the article first and deleted all the non-neutral statements since you take exception to my doing it?NinaGreen (talk) 20:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

How Should Shapiro Be Cited?

I just added a citation for Shapiro, and I've noticed that there are two different page numbers given for every Shapiro reference in the article. Can someone explain?NinaGreen (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Since the topic of this article is an English subject, in compliance with Wikipedia guidelines the spelling is British and the British edition of the book is cited first with the American edition page numbers in parenthesis (see the book's entry in the bib). I'll get to your comments in the above section later, but it seems that the process is working so far in that I'm editing your edits to tighten up the accuracy and citations. Any disputes I feel sure we can hash out on the talk page. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I can only cite the page numbers in the copy I have (American edition); hopefully someone can supply the page numbers for the British edition.NinaGreen (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Spearing The Wild Blue Boar

A new book out on the authorship controversy. I don't now whether it will be of relevance in editing this page.

http://artvoice.com/issues/v9n50/theater_books_for_christmas

NinaGreen (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That's not new; I've had it for a year or so. It's basically an amateur anti-Oxfordian rehash of all the mainstream SAQ books up to Shapiro. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. Someone told me it was new. I'd not heard of it.NinaGreen (talk) 20:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The author has a blurb from David Kathman.Why be so dismisive ,Tom .The poor guy is over ninety years of age and if he ever gets a quick chance to play a suporting role in the neo-Stratfordian Follies it will depend as yours did on Kathman expertise.

WikiProject Alternative Views

I just noticed that this page is part of WikiProject Alternative Views, and am copying below the statement from the project:

Wikipedia's policy is to write articles from a neutral point of view describing not just the dominant view, but significant alternative views as well, fairly, proportionately, and without bias. Because alternative views lack the widespread acceptance enjoyed by dominant views and often suffer from a lack of coverage in verifiable and reliable sources, fewer editors know or care about them, and this imbalance puts alternative views at risk of neglect, misrepresentation, and a level of coverage not in keeping with their relative notability. This project aims to counter that tendency by facilitating collaboration among interested editors. This should all be done while following our basic content principles. It should not be an excuse to correct supposed suppression from the mainstream orthodoxy, to engage in original research, or to use sources that aren't verifiable and reliable. We are not here to correct real-world coverage. We are here to report real-world coverage. We are not here to counterbalance real-world sources. We are here to balance according to real-world sources.

Doesn't this fact alone dispose of the 'fringe theory' issue?NinaGreen (talk) 18:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

"This should all be done while following our basic content principles. It should not be an excuse to correct supposed suppression from the mainstream orthodoxy, to engage in original research, or to use sources that aren't verifiable and reliable. We are not here to correct real-world coverage. We are here to report real-world coverage. We are not here to counterbalance real-world sources. We are here to balance according to real-world sources."

My suggestion is to thoroughly famliarise yourself with what those bolded areas comprise, especially Wikipedia's basic content principles as they have been interpreted through the various resolution procedures. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I have no disagreement with anything in the policy. It just seems odd to me that what Wikipedia itself terms an 'alternative view' would be designated in the article as a 'fringe theory'. The statement still lacks a citation. Perhaps when one is found that will help to clarify the situation.NinaGreen (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina apparently you disagree with WP policies and guidelines since you removed the citation and tagged the statement. The citation is acceptable as per WP:RS, which is why I suggested you familiarise yourself more with WP policies and guidelines. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, see below. I removed it because I'm following Wikipedia policies, not because I disagree with them! The statements are as far from neutral as can be, and neutrality is a pillar of Wikipedia policy.NinaGreen (talk) 20:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

EXTREME PERSONAL AND REFERENCE BIAS

The peer review submission by Tom Reedy is anything but neutral. Reviewing the footnotes he used to support his contentions, I read some of the most misinformed and bilious remarks about other scholars and other scholarship that I have ever seen. Kathman's and Nelson's in particular are little more than polemic, with Shapiro, Bate, Smith, and Wadsworth also characterized by summary judgment, unsupported by any specific factuality. The basic point of departure into polemic is their common assumption that Gulielmus Shakspere of Stratford and William Shake-Speare/Shakespeare of literary renown were one and the same person. Since this cannot be asserted without numerous contradictions collapsing the argument, it throws into question the (lack of) scholarly motives of the individuals involved. There can be no neutral discussion under these terms, and in this case Tom Reedy's neutral point of view is a travesty. The defensive posture of asserting that Elizabethan authors did not write out of their own experience and social frame, for instance, is clearly disproven by their individual biographies. The only biography to work chasm is that of the subject in discussion, Gulielmus Shakspere of Stratford. --Zweigenbaum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zweigenbaum (talk • contribs) 16:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Achieving Neutrality

Tom, I see you've restored this citation, and I'm not going to get into a revert war over it, but the statements are a long way from neutral ('creationists', 'UFO sightings','schismatics', 'ignorant of facts and methods', 'dismaying', the patronizing 'touching', 'creationists', 'dark conspiracy','I do not know of a single professor', the dismissive 'like St. Louis it's out there', 'nothing he can say will prevail' etc.)

^ Kathman 2003, p. 621: "...in fact, antiStratfordism has remained a fringe belief system for its entire existence. Professional Shakespeare scholars mostly pay little attention to it, much as evolutionary biologists ignore creationists and astronomers dismiss UFO sightings."; Schoenbaum 1991, p. 450: "A great many of the schismatics are (as we have seen) distinguished in fields other than literary scholarship, and their ignorance of fact and method is as dismaying as their non-specialist love of Shakespeare's plays is touching."; Nicholl 2010, p. 4 quotes Gail Kern Paster, director of the Folger Shakespeare Library: "To ask me about the authorship question ... is like asking a palaeontologist to debate a creationist's account of the fossil record."; Nelson 2004, p. 151: "I do not know of a single professor of the 1,300-member Shakespeare Association of America who questions the identity of Shakespeare ... Among editors of Shakespeare in the major publishing houses, none that I know questions the authorship of the Shakespeare canon."; Carroll 2004, pp. 278–9: "I am an academic, a member of what is called the 'Shakespeare Establishment,' one of perhaps 20,000 in our land, professors mostly, who make their living, more or less, by teaching, reading, and writing about Shakespeare—and, some say, who participate in a dark conspiracy to suppress the truth about Shakespeare.... I have never met anyone in an academic position like mine, in the Establishment, who entertained the slightest doubt as to Shakespeare's authorship of the general body of plays attributed to him. Like others in my position, I know there is an anti-Stratfordian point of view and understand roughly the case it makes. Like St. Louis, it is out there, I know, somewhere, but it receives little of my attention."; Pendleton 1994, p. 21: "Shakespeareans sometimes take the position that to even engage the Oxfordian hypothesis is to give it a countenance it does not warrant. And, of course, any Shakespearean who reads a hundred pages on the authorship question inevitably realizes that nothing he can say will prevail with those persuaded to be persuaded otherwise."; Gibson 2005, p. 30.

If the article is ever to be accepted as neutral, this sort of thing has to go. Neither you nor I should be trying to 'prove' our position here. The objective is to present a neutral summary of the authorship controversy so that readers can make up their own minds. Right? There's been a lot of harsh language on both sides, but this article isn't the place to present any of it.NinaGreen (talk) 20:31, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

As per my suggestion above,you should familiarise yourself with WP policies and guideliines, especially WP:NPOV. You might want to begin here.

We report what sources say; we don't say it for them, not do we tone them down or ramp them up. These comments are mild compared to a lot of stuff out there, but the fact of the matter is that the academic community considers the SAQ a fringe theory with no evidence, and they don't think too much about it. Those stats you quoted about Shakespeare professors (as opposed to scholars) are in line with how evolutionists treat creationism: they "cover" it by dismissing it. In no shape or form is the SAQ part of the accepted scholastic curriculum, except to dismiss of disparage the claims. That you know of one or two professors who treat it as a serious theory does not invalidate the scholastic consensus, and in fact the topic is banned from the Shakespeare Association of America as well as Hardy's listserv as a serious topic of discussion.

To recap: we present the various sources of each side by describing what they say neutrally, not by tempering or censoring their comments. Wikipedia's bias is toward the academic consensus, and the objective is not to present a neutral summary of the authorship controversy "so that readers can make up their own minds"; it's to present each point of view accurately and in context. If that entails offending the sensibilities of either side, that's too bad. Tom Reedy (talk) 21:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. If you think those quotations are over the top, I've got lots of "lunatic fringe" and worse if you want me to post them. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I disagree. I don't see Wikipedia as a forum for presenting mud slung by both sides and then calling it 'neutrality' because both sides have gotten to sling some mud (and in fact in the article as it stands, only one side has gotten to sling mud anyway, so the article isn't even neutral on that ground :-). Wikipedia is a forum for dispassionately presenting the arguments for both sides, keeping the mud-slinging out of it, particularly on controversial issues. We need to step back from a partisan position so that we can edit the article from a neutral point of view. It really isn't that hard. I don't in the slightest care whether this article 'proves' anything about the authorship one way or another so long as both sides are presented neutrally and impartially, without any pejoratives from the combatants (by 'combatants' I mean the sources quoted, not the editors of this article :-).NinaGreen (talk) 22:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina, if the academic consensus holds that the SAQ is without merit, it must be stated so and the statement must be reliably cited. That is all. If the SAQ proponents say that William Shakepseare was an illiterate grain merchant who grew up in a cultural backwater and so couldn't have written the works, then it must be stated so and the statement must be reliably cited. That is all. The reason those quotations you object to are there is because any statement liable to be challenged has to be cited, and even with a cite, without quotations it was being challenged every time a new editor read the lede, just the way you are doing now.

And respectfully, you aren't really responding to what I say; you have only said you disagree and then give your reasons—not Wikipedia's—for why you object. Tom Reedy (talk) 23:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you wrote:

Nina, if the academic consensus holds that the SAQ is without merit, it must be stated so and the statement must be reliably cited. That is all.

I agree completely that the majority view must be presented as the majority view, as per Wikipedia policy. I have no argument whatsoever with that. But I have not yet seen a reliable source cited in the article which says 'I speak for the academy, and not for myself, and the academy says the SAQ is without merit'. Instead, I've seen this sort of statement from Alan Nelson cited: 'I do not know of a single professor of the 1,300-member Shakespeare Association of America who questions the identity of Shakespeare'. Does Alan know all 1300 members of the SAA? Has Alan questioned each member personally concerning his/her views on the authorship issue? This is clearly not the consensus of the academy. This is merely Alan Nelson stating what his personal experience suggests to him about the consensus of the academy. And it is flatly contradicted by the results of the 2007 New York Times survey of professors who teach Shakespeare at U.S. universities. So who are we to believe -- Alan Nelson's view based on his personal experience, or the Shakespeare professors who responded to the New York Times survey? I don't disagree in the slightest that 'if the academic consensus holds that the SAQ is without merit, it must be stated so, and it must be reliably cited'. What I obviously disagree with is the reliability of the sources you've cited for that statement. How can you cite Alan Nelson's view of the academic consensus based on his own personal knowledge, and not cite the New York Times survey on the academic consensus? I would be quite happy with a statement on the academic consensus which cited the New York Times survey. That survey shows what the majority of university professors teaching Shakespeare think. Why not just cite the results of that survey and be done with it? That would state the academic consensus fairly, and would meet the Wikipedia requirement of neutrality. At the moment, none of the sources cited is reliable in terms of the issue of academic consensus because each source is simply someone speaking for himself, not speaking for the academy. So the citations are neither reliable, nor neutral.NinaGreen (talk) 00:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

So are you arguing that the NYTimes polled every Shakespeare professor in the world, and that's why it should be valued over Nelson's experience of the Shakespeare Association of America (of which he is a very respected member), as well as all the other testimony supporting that statement? (Because you have a habit of picking out one ref and basing your argument on that as if that were the only evidence adduced for the section.)

And by the way, Wadsworth is a good reliable reference. He was a very respected published Shakespeare academic and the rebuttals, like the arguments, haven't changed all that much in the past 50 years. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, no, of course I'm not arguing that the New York Times polled every Shakespeare professor in the world. I'm arguing the very clear and irrefutable point that you can't claim to represent the views of the academy in the SAQ article by citing the comments of three or four members of the academy (and in any event your first citation is by David Kathman, who isn't a member of the academy). If you're going to make a claim concerning the position of the academy in the SAQ article and not violate the Wikipedia pillars of neutrality, verifiability and no original research, you have to cite the best evidence you have of the academy's collective view. The only evidence of the academy's collective view that I'm aware of is the New York Times survey, which is recent (2007) and representative. If there's something more recent and more authoritative which represents the collective views of the academy, by all means cite that. If there's nothing which can be cited which verifiably represents the collective view of the academy, then delete the section from the text of the SAQ.NinaGreen (talk) 17:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the POV tag because the assertions of POV are vague and all over the place. How an editor who has not contributed one edit is able to tag an article based on unsupported generalised assertions as he posted earlier is simply ludicrous. A sentence such as "The basic point of departure into polemic is their common assumption that Gulielmus Shakspere of Stratford and William Shake-Speare/Shakespeare of literary renown were one and the same person" is pure nonsense. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

User: Zweigenbaum Since you made a point of issuing the following statement, I as its target wish to respond to it.

"I have removed the POV tag because the assertions of POV are vague and all over the place. How an editor who has not contributed one edit is able to tag an article based on unsupported generalised assertions as he posted earlier is simply ludicrous. A sentence such as "The basic point of departure into polemic is their common assumption that Gulielmus Shakspere of Stratford and William Shake-Speare/Shakespeare of literary renown were one and the same person" is pure nonsense."

Under ordinary conditions in a face to face encounter, I doubt you would try this. In our hopefully civil context, I would appreciate you managing your own anger and sensibilities so that substance rather than opinionated characterizations occupies the exchanges. To the main point. You had no right under rule to remove the notice of a neutrality dispute. These responses demonstrate too well that there is a neutrality dispute. That is sufficient cause to post a notice, whether I've recently enrolled as an editor or not. Therefore, kindly adjust your approach and methods if you can. I know there must be a protocol to protest someone trying to take over a Wikipedia subject section, and as I understand you are a follower of David Kathman, the last word in bias on this topic, maybe that will be the eventual course.

As to whether my remarks were ludicrous and/or pure nonsense, that remains to be proven. The judgment was asserted and followed by unacceptable and arbitrary censorship. Is it possible you are also responsible for moving the lengthy comments below to an out of the way archive location, so you would not have to deal with their import? Is this neutrality? I seriously doubt. It appears to be an action in bad faith. The archived remarks are totally relevant and should be considered, not ignored, whatever the rationalization for doing so.

The sentence you quoted is far from the complete statement that I made under the discussion category, but I will be happy to back it up. James Shapiro's 'Contested Will' operates on the very assumption I cited, that the Stratford burgher named Gulielmus Shakspere and the literary giant whose moniker was Shake-Speare/Shakespeare were identical. If that were the case in fact, there would naturally be factual support in the form of letters, books, bookcases, desk(s), writing implements, manuscripts, exchanges with other writers, remarks from and to writers and university scholars, contracts, local anecdotes (which last an extremely long time), visits from dignitaries and other writers, sales, legal suits regarding pirated materials, recovery actions, encomia and elegiacal literature upon the writer's death, and so on. In this evidentiary profile of the Stratford burgher there is literally nothing, though similar materials exist to a greater or lesser extent for all other contemporary writers. Consult Ms Price's documentation if truly curious. There was a person, honored in his own time, who presented many of the same "Shakespearean" plays at court in the 1570's and '80's, with the same plots and characters but differing titles. He was given covert, discreet, but unmistakable tributes by writers and almanac compilers during the era and remembered as the apex of Elizabethan literature after his death. That person, whoever he was, was surely not from Stratford, whose now most famous citizen was noted not at all at his death, even by fellow townsmen, until useful in the First Folio publication. All of the writers making tribute were friends, colleagues, or former employees of the Herbert brothers or Jonson, themselves followers of de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. It is not prudent academic practice to ignore the obvious, but people are often foolish. Therefore the statement that "The basic point of departure into polemic is their [Stratfordians'] common assumption that Gulielmus Shakspere of Stratford and William Shake-Speare/Shakespeare of literary renown were one and the same person," is not ludicrous, not nonsense, not vague and all over the place. If the shoe fits, wear it. My statement pertains specifically to the subject matter, a unique one of secrecy and deception, and especially to the methods of study, namely, the Stratfordian (i.e., your) incapacity to come close to a "neutral" point of view. Operating on the wrong basic assumptions, you will never reach an acceptable objective analysis. The only way to rectify what has been submitted for peer review is to utterly re-write it from a more removed perspective.

I do not expect an apology for the aspersions, which I regard as a fine example of a believer's emotional reflex to a disturbing challenge upon his beliefs, resulting in an attack on/dismissal of the messenger. In Latin class we learned to call it ad hominem arguing--if you can't beat the argument, go after the speaker. This may not be in the relevant literature, but it is a fact: we're not children any more. Attacks don't work. You'll get more respect with reasoned statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zweigenbaum (talk • contribs) 10:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Why you feel the need to write Shakespeare's first name Latin is some thing of a mystery. There are many records of Shakespeare which clearly indicate that the writer was one and the same person who was born and died in Stratford. Why on earth do you think there should be "letters, books, bookcases, desk(s), writing implements, manuscripts,..." etc? How many are there for other playwrights of the period. Do we have Kyd's or Marlowe's bookcases etc? Just look up how many of Marlowe's letters and manuscripts survive. Yes, of course sometimes some letters and some manuscripts of some authors survive. More often not. Every single piece of evidence discovered concerning Shakespeare is consistent with his being an actor/writer. All Shakespeare specialists know this. And it is the views of specialists that determine content on Wikipedia. Paul B (talk) 12:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

User: Zweigenbaum In response to Paul Barlow: Sorry but we have a communication gap. Your assertion that "Every single piece of evidence discovered concerning Shakespeare is consistent with his being an actor/writer," is without evidentiary foundation. The seventy pieces of evidence that are legal documents irrefutably tied to Shakspere the person, which have been seen by specialists or others, definitively show him as money-lender, land-owner, broker, business proprietor or investor, defendant in civil suit for intimidation, active court litigant--but not in any manner an author or playwright. This is unique among his contemporaries. To a greater or lesser extent, each and every other writer left SOME KIND of evidence of being a writer in addition to printed works with their names on the covers. But none at all for the greatest writer of the age? Credence requires inquiry. This is the crux of the evidentiary dispute, bearing so heavily on the capacity of his proponents to write a clear and convincing sentence of probative support for their position. Reliance on authority does not constitute a trail of evidence. Yes, the name on the play title pages are evidence, but of publication of the printed name only, not the person you assume and believe is synonymous with that name. It was clear at the time that hyphenated names were pseudonyms and unhyphenated 'Shakespeare' attributions were never contemporaneously confused with the Stratford Shakspere. Further and overwhelming 'evidence' appeared in the form of the First Folio, but again with no connection to the person you honor, and with mysterious elements tying the entire episode to the Herbert brothers, relatives and followers of de Vere; to writers associated with them; to a highly ambiguous introduction and to a more ambiguous monument plaque statement; to dedicatory language supposedly from two actors but in a style suspiciously like Ben Jonson's. In no discernible way, did the First Folio evidence confirm Shakspere's authorship simply by (intentionally confusing?) reference to him--that seems to be the nature of the ruse then and now. You wish to believe what you are told is true, but manifold facts do not appear to support that wish. This inconsistency between available evidence and traditional reputation beclouds any effort toward 'neutral', or in another word, unbiased, thinking. The contradictions do not go away. They are factual. They must be faced dispassionately, even if that means a readjustment in our understanding. --Zweigenbaum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zweigenbaum ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) 19:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum, writers didn't "leave" evidence. They didn't put it in a time capsule. Evidence either survives, more less by chance, or it doesn't. It's subject to a thousand natural shocks. Most written material has just been thrown away, crumbled away, got lost or used as kindling. It would be nice if more material relating to Shakespeare existed. But every single piece of evidence that does either says he was a writer or is entirely consistent with that fact. When aristocratic or other writers wanted to publish anonymously they used names like "ignoto", or just published with no name. Creating a whole persona around a real human being from Stratford is wholly unprescedented, utterly bizarre and nonsensical. There is no contradiction between "available evidence" and traditional reputation. Shakespeare is exactly the type of person we'd expect to have written the plays - an active man of the theatre with a middle-class education. Paul B (talk) 23:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum Trivializing a respondent's words is not debating. Elizabethan writers "left" plenty of evidence in their known biographies and documents as to being writers and writing works. These are on record and referenced in scholarship. For the sake of brevity, just access the research of Diana Price in 'William Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography'. You will find dozens of artifacts listed for numerous writers. You will find none for Shakspere of Stratford. We're talking about evidence here, not speculation to win a point. If you have anything beyond a playwright's name similar to Shakspere's on a title page, let's see that "every piece of evidence" and discuss it. The First Folio introductory materials, once understood as to their origin and motivation, become evidence AGAINST your contention. That includes the introduction, the etching, the tributes, and the dedication to the Herberts. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that the use of evidence as presently propounded in the Stratfordian model is not being used neutrally, free of bias, but incorporated into a speculative theory accepted over time but beyond the power of available facts to support a case for authorship. Generalized comments such as you present are defensive in nature because they are not buttressed by the preponderance of evidence, or at this point any evidence. Reedy's attempt to skew the debate into a respectable us versus a kooky anti-Stratfordian them, like a wrestling match on TV, is inherently not neutral. --Zweigenbaum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zweigenbaum (talk • contribs) 07:26, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum At this point (December 19, 2010 12:15 AM) I note that on more than one occasion Tom Reedy has reverted the neutrality tag I placed at the top of the contested article on Shakespeare authorship, presently under discussion and peer review. The following is the rule forbidding so doing.

"In any NPOV dispute, there will be some people who think the article complies with NPOV, and some people who disagree. In general, you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved.

Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed."

It is clear that under this language Reedy is defying the recommendations of the neutrality section. I assume rule-breaking with impunity is actionable and wonder whether the editors agree. Of course further action will be moot if Reedy stops the unlawful practice. Thank you. Zweigenbaum (talk) 08:21, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is the talk page for an article. Per WP:TPG, please restrict your comments to policy-based attempts to improve the article. Many people believe many things, but more than belief is needed to justify tagging an article. Johnuniq (talk) 09:03, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

And more than cherry-picking the bits you like out of the template usage notes is needed, too. Please turn your attention to your own action (=adding the template), Zsweigenbaum, instead of hopping right to the question of removing it. Removal discussion only comes into play when it was added appropriately. This is the central advice for when it's to be added:

Quote:

• The editor placing this template in an article should promptly begin a discussion on the article's talk page. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant, then this tag may be removed by any editor.
• The purpose of this group of templates is to attract editors with different viewpoints to edit articles that need additional insight. This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article.
• This template should only be applied to articles that are reasonably believed to lack a neutral point of view. The neutral point of view is determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality reliable sources, not by its prevalence among Wikipedia editors.

determined by the prevalence of a perspective in high-quality reliable sources, not by its prevalence among Wikipedia editors. However many shouting SPA's turn up here, inflating the fringe viewpoint "among Wikipedia editors", it doesn't make the tag appropriate, and I consider your reinsertion of it without giving reason (see section "NPOV violations" below) to be tendentious editing Neither you nor Warshy seem interested in trying to justify the tag. Merely using it to make the article look bad is not what the tag is for. ("This template should not be used as a badge of shame. Do not use this template to "warn" readers about the article.") What matters is that only one side has high-quality reliable sources (and it's not the Oxford side), as has been shown on this page. The tag is inappropriate. Please desist from your tendentious editing, or you may find yourself blocked for edit-warring. I'm also considering full-protecting the article until such time as a compromise—obviously distant at this time—is worked out. Bishonen | talk 09:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC).

Zweigenbaum Sorry the charge that I have reverted the editing of another editor without comment toward the issue, i.e., neutrality of the proposed article, is patently false. I explained in plain language in my first communication why the proposed article is biased. While it includes the most virulent of polemical and ad hominem attacks upon the "fringe element" so called, there is no reference whatsoever to the opposing scholarship, as though there weren't any to cite. As to my "reverting" Reedy's removing the neutrality tag, his action is the one requiring justification not my original one being restored. His removing my use of the notice--and no one to this point can claim acceptable neutrality on his behalf--is a retaliation for the embarrassment of a valid use of the device. This is unacceptable according to rule. As is obvious from the outset of my contributions, an "improvement" of the article is possible, not from tangential suggestions about it, which would not change its biased thrust, but clarifications about basic assumptions that have led to it and whatever use of reference and citations are being used to support them. The most obvious example of an unexamined assumption therein is that no writerly evidence for Shakspere of Stratford exists, with reference to Diana Price's 'William Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography'. This is basic research pertaining to the personality favored in your persuasion. Reedy does not grant credence and consideration to this detailed work or indeed any Oxfordian scholarship. It is difficult to reach consensus on such an unbalanced footing, and demanding co-operation as I sense you do towards that end is inappropriate. Consensus follows from agreement on the validity of the evidence presented. Let us seek that valid evidence by bona fide consideration of the available elements and supporting materials leading to the dispute. The article will benefit from them, once included. This has yet to happen. The peer review status so far appears to be a stonewalling action of positing the Reedy position in prominence, and then keeping it there before the public as though it were the last word, no dispute at all. Stating outright that there is a neutrality issue is not tendentious but reflective of fact. Removing the tag is the objectionable action. As to the cherry-picking, I am not quite sure what was meant by the charge--a review of the entire footnoting background is cherry-picking? Thank you. Zweigenbaum (talk) 18:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(Then we're even: I have no idea what you mean by "the peer review status." But was I referring to footnotes, really? Didn't I speak of "cherry-picking the bits you like out of the template usage notes "? [/me checks her edit.] Why, yes, I did. "The template usage notes." I don't know how to put it any more clearly. And I mean exactly what I say, so please don't take the trouble to "sense" my intentions.)

Quoting you:

"As to my "reverting" Reedy's removing the neutrality tag, his action is the one requiring justification not my original one being restored. His removing my use of the notice--and no one to this point can claim acceptable neutrality on his behalf--is a retaliation for the embarrassment of a valid use of the device."

Nonsense. You reverted Tom just as much as he reverted you. A revert is a revert. Please read and inwardly digest WP:3RR and Template:POV instead of inventing "rules" out of whole cloth. What this page doesn't need is yet another IDIDNTHEARTHAT editor. And please don't invent quotes from me, either. You state that:

1. (Bishonen called my position 'belief' without specifics for that charge)[4]
2. "Bishonen made reference to "Specialists" as the only acceptable authorities."[5]

That's some misunderstanding there. I haven't said either of those things. Never used "belief" or "Specialist" on this page. Perhaps somebody else has, and you (like me) have trouble understanding who wrote what here? Let me explain: I sign my posts by typing four tildes (squigglies, like this: ~~~~) at the end of each post. The squigglies automatically turn into my username plus a timestamp when I save. Please do the same, and we won't have a problem. Sign at the end of your posts; don't add your name at the beginning or somewhere in the middle, which confuses everybody. (Don't you usually sign, say, letters at the end?) Keeping this principle in mind, you will find that these posts are mine:[6][7][8][9] [10]; no others. It would be great if you read them and paid attention to the words that actually do occur in them. It may save you a block for edit-warring. Best wishes, Bishonen | talk 00:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC).

Zweigenbaum

Nina Green is discussing another policy issue raised by the article's approach. I have followed suit regarding the neutrality of the proposed article (Bishonen called my position 'belief' without specifics for that charge) and I offer these suggestions regarding reliability and wording. In general, from my reading of the rules mentioned in the Wikipedia sources, the wording must not be slanted in one direction and derogatory in the other. [(WP:WORD)] I wonder if Mr. Reedy can overcome his bias and actually do this. The reliability of the proposed article depends almost completely on using sources fairly, neither emphasizing one nor condemning the other. [(WP:RELIABLE)] It is another major factor in achieving neutrality.

Bishonen made reference to "Specialists" as the only acceptable authorities. This does not appear in the guidelines I read. They call for peer-reviewed, fact-checked, academically credentialed and other reliable sources. It is the Specialists so-called that by and large maintain the traditional view contrary to ordinary logic and available fact. The Oxfordians simply introduce reliable materials uncomfortable to that view.

Mr. Reedy, (I should be more respectful in addressing your major effort though I differ with the results) you have already been informed of most of these Policy and Guideline issues. Since you and Bishonen seem to feel that there has been a lack of specifics, perhaps you will take an interest in the following:

1) Mizelmouse and others have raised the issue that the article uses non-neutral language, such as that non-Stratfordians "claim" and "assert" and "declare", rather than the more neutral "state". Add to that that Stratfordians "hold" and "consider" rather than "say" or "believe". This is a clear violation of WP:WORDS.

First I will request that you address this one specific Guideline and then we'll move on to another. Start with the first line and move through the article. For example:

Line 1 - change "argument" to "debate";

Paragraph 2, final line - change "argue" to "believe", and "arguing" to "proposing".

Paragraph 3 - change "Mainstream Shakespeare scholars hold" to : "Many mainstream Shakespeare scholars believe" (this change address both WP:WORDS and WP:RELIABLE , specifically -

"Academic consensus: The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors."

Paragraph 4 - change "Despite the scholastic consensus" to "Despite the traditional view" - same WP:RELIABLE and "Academic consensus" issue as above.

Paragraph 4 - the final line is a mess, and there are multiple issue involved. As written, it appears to be more about the "supporters" than the theory itself, which is odd and does not contribute to explication of the subject matter. It may express your view of Oxfordians but that is not the purpose of the article, correct me if I have this wrong. The subject of the article is the theory itself, is it not? If you are attempting to show the current state of the debate, then this final line should instead say something like "In recent years, two universities began offering courses related to the issue, and a Shakespeare Authorship Research Centre has opened, an online list of doubters includes over 1800 signatories, and a major feature film Anonymous has been announced with the authorship question as a key element.' (At this point I have to mention that the present article is hopelessly out of date. Altrocchi, Whittemore, and Roe have made recent significant contributions to knowledge in the subject matter, not even mentioning dozens of articles in the Society and Fellowship journals. Part of the source of conflict is that Mr. Reedy has not availed himself of the numerous high-quality peer-reviewed works that comprise the Oxfordian position on Shakespeare authorship. That may involve a good deal of at first distasteful effort, then shocking surprise, but it is the responsible editor's duty if he means to write a balanced article.)

WP:LEAD states that the lead is to summarize the article. Specifically "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should usually be established in the first few sentences."

A day's work would be getting the lead correct, with regard to WP:AVOID, complete with specific points and policy quotes. If I were to make these edits, are you going to revert them in toto on the pretext that they are pure nonsense or ludicrous, as you characterized my reasons for posting notice there is a neutrality issue? When a company lawyer before Chief Justice Warren made a complicated excuse for denying justice to the appellant, Warren responded, "But were you fair?" Show us that you WANT to be fair, and a major element of the communication gap will be reduced. Zweigenbaum (talk) 22:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum It is incumbent upon me to respond to the various charges and statements made by Bishonen, located before my previous post. Yes I see I treated the various remarks above like a Hydra with one name, Bishonen. Mr. Paul Barlow made the assertion that specialists only are sufficient as reference material (and what about Walt Whitman, poor unlettered unspecialist) and Mr. Johnuniq who opined that "Many people believe many things but it takes more than belief is needed to justify tagging an article". How true that is, and unfortunately everything I wrote in explanation for the need to utilize that neutrality dispute tagging has been diminished to the level of "that's just your belief". If you want to call it belief, all right, or call it what you will, numerous reasons were presented as per policy. That my remarks were ignored gave cause to the reverter to do his revert, and therein lies a clever misuse of rule. If you fall silent at a challenge, there is no discussion regarding the challenge, and you can argue the status quo ante is justified by "dormancy". Bishonen's main point appears to be that I cherry-picked the guidelines from the neutrality policy because I wished to use that device as a slap in the face to the article writer. This is a good bit of imputing motives. I need only remind the correspondent that there is a neutrality dispute and not having that notice gives the false impression of agreement among the parties and reliability of the article. To date there is no agreement, none, on even the most minor edits, which leads me to the inevitable conclusion the article is under dispute, and further that the original writer of the article will stonewall until the grave beckons. I invite one and all to consider the changes in the previous Zweigenbaum post regarding WORD and RELIABLE issues. Are loaded words and phrases out of bounds or aren't they? Are texts other than those favorable to the moving party non-existent, regardless of the years and conscientious scholarship that went into them? There is no more obvious way to test the good faith of the disputants than this simple improvement.

Regarding the general tenor of exchange, it may not be in the Wikipedia guidelines but I believe it is relevant: "My mind it scuffs at pettiness that plays so rough/Kick my feet inside handcuffs, say Okay I've had enough/What else can you SHOW ME." --Bob Dylan, 1965 76.102.211.42 (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

If you insist on using my title, it's Dr Paul Barlow, not Mr. However, I neer said that only Shakespeare specialists can be used as sources. There are complex rules about what sources can be used to say what in an artice such as this (see WP:FRINGE). What I said is that academic consensus is determined by specialists. If you want to know what the consensus view of some aspect of the life of Keats is you ask Keats specialists, not any old Eng Lit teacher. If you want to know what what the consensus view of some aspect of the history of Ancient Rome is, you ask specialists in ancient Rome, not any historian. This is obvious to anyone. You and Nina also appear to be confusing WP:NPOV (Wikipedia policy on neutrality) with the collquial sense of the word neutral, meaning "not coming down on one side or another". Wikipedia policy means we should present the views of experts are the most authoritative. So if there a theory that says the pyramids were built by aliens (which there is) we have every right - indeed duty - to quote experts who say that's baloney. Paul B (talk) 14:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Core of the Argument

In addition to the neutrality issue, we're going to have to get past this roadblock before we can make much real progress on the article. This paragraph in the current version makes the argument that it is disagreement as to 'the nature of acceptable evidence' which is at the core of the argument.

Standards of evidence

At the core of the argument is the nature of acceptable evidence used to attribute works to their authors.[25] Anti-Stratfordians rely on what they designate as circumstantial evidence: similarities between the characters and events portrayed in the works and the biography of their preferred candidates; literary parallels between the works and the known literary works of their candidate, and hidden codes and cryptographic allusions in Shakespeare's own works or texts written by contemporaries.[26] By contrast, academic Shakespeareans and literary historians rely on the documentary evidence in the form of title page attributions, government records such as the Stationers' Register and the Accounts of the Revels Office, and contemporary testimony from poets, historians, and those players and playwrights who worked with him, as well as modern stylometric studies, all of which converge to confirm William Shakespeare's authorship.[27] These criteria are the same as those used to credit works to other authors, and are accepted as the standard methodology for authorship attribution.[28]

The core of the argument actually is the perceived lack of 'fit' between the author and the works, as set out in the lede to the article:

Scholars contend that the controversy has its origins in Bardolatry, the adulation of Shakespeare in the 18th century as the greatest writer of all time. To 19th-century Romantics, who believed that literature was essentially a medium for self-revelation, Shakespeare’s eminence seemed incongruous with his humble origins and obscure life, arousing suspicion that the Shakespeare attribution might be a deception.

We can't argue one thing in the lede, and something completely different later in the article. Agreed? NinaGreen (talk) 21:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Where does the second quote say bardolatry is the "core of the argument"? Bardolatry caused the perceived dissonance between the author as imagined from the works and the real life author (much the same could be said for many literary figures, such as Rimbaud or Rousseau). The nature of what constitutes acceptable evidence is what those sceptics fail to comprehend. Anachronistic expectations is what produces "new" arguments based on that type of evidence. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:10, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The quote doesn't say Bardolatry is the core of the argument. As you say, Bardolatry caused the issue of the perceived dissonance to arise. So the core of the dispute between the two sides is whether the perceived dissonance exists, and 'the nature of the evidence' which can legitimately be used to resolve that dispute is an important consideration, but it isn't the core of the argument itself. That's how I see it.NinaGreen (talk) 22:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

An instigating point is not necessarily the core of the argument. I suppose we're actually playing out the differences in perception by this very conversation. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you quote Shapiro (via Alter) in one of the footnotes to precisely that effect. See also this from Shapiro in the Alter interview:

[Alter] Are scholars still looking for more evidence that could settle the authorship controversy, or has everything been turned over repeatedly?

[Shapiro] We do find more evidence every few years that points to Shakespeare. I think it would be more valuable if scholars, rather than turning over the evidence again, looked more closely at the assumptions governing the way that they read and teach the works and try to find the life in the works. I think if you turn off that faucet and suggest that others can't engage in that fantasy either, I think that will starve the controversy of a lot of its oxygen.

Shapiro is very much of the view that the core of the dispute is the perceived dissonance, and that the more both sides continue to try to find the author in the works, the more fuel it gives to the controversy. So I'm merely echoing Shapiro's view, which you quote in the article, that the core of the dispute is whether the perceived dissonance exists. Anti-Stratfordians seek to prove their case via the perceived dissonance, while Stratfordians such as Shapiro want to turn away from the perceived dissonance, thereby 'starving the controversy of a lot of its oxygen'.

We're probably essentially saying the same thing, but I think Shapiro's statement has to be taken into consideration when discussing how the two sides differ in terms of evidence because Shapiro is saying, 'We're just not going to look at that type of evidence', while the other side is saying, 'But we have to look at it'. It's not the distinction between circumstantial evidence vs. direct evidence and that sort of thing. It's the two sides disagreeing on whether a particular type of evidence can be looked at at all. Shapiro is basically saying that a certain type of evidence is off limits because 'We tried it (via Greenblatt, Weis etc.), and it wasn't working for us'. :-)NinaGreen (talk) 00:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Upon my word this is astonishing. It appears that you truly don't understand what Shapiro is saying, both in the example you give from the interview and in his book.

The "perceived dissonance" is that between the sublimity of the works and the humble origins of the author. That is what started people wondering about the authorship, especially after Bardolatry elevated the author into a universal genius.

The differences in the nature of the evidence used by anti-Stratfordians and Stratfordians to attribute authorship is the "core of the argument", and it is very clear from that section what that is: anti-Strats construct a personality from the works and then find a match; Strats use the historical record, i.e. title pages, government records, and contemporary testimony. When Shapiro mixes his metaphors by turning off the faucet of biographical readings to starve the authorship theorists of their arguments, he is talking about the difference in evidence, not about Bardolatry.

You have yet to indicate that you've read the cites for that section. For convenience's sake here they are: McCrea 2005, pp. 165, 217–8.; Shapiro 2010, pp. 8, 48, 112–3, 235, 298 (8, 44, 100, 207, 264). the pages in parenthesis are those for your edition. Read those pages and notice every time the word "evidence" is mentioned; that is the section referred to by those cites. Here's an example from p. 207:

"'The Oxfordians have constructed an interpretive framework that has an infinite capacity to explain away information': 'all the evidence that fits the theory is accepted, and the rest is rejected.' When Boyle added that it was impossible 'to imagine a piece of evidence that could disprove the theory to its adherents,' Lardner asked, 'What about a letter in Oxford's hand ...congratulatiing William Shakespeare of Stratford on his achievements as a playwright?' Boyle didn't skip a beat, mimicking an Oxfordian response, '"What an unlikely communication between an earl and a common player! ... Obviously, something designed to carry on the conspiracy of concealment. The very fact that he wrote such a letter presents the strongest proof we could possibly have!"'"

and further down that same page:

"...by having judges rather than scholars with decades of expertise evaluate the evidence, amateurs and experts were put on equal footing, both subordinate to the higher authority of the court, and to legal rather than academic criteria for what counted as circumstantial evidence."

Both Shapiro and McCrea are chock full of examples of the differences in evidence and both say that is key to why anti-Strats and the academy, like east and west, will never meet. Tom Reedy (talk) 04:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you're avoiding one of the principal points made by Shapiro throughout his book, which is his lament that Greenblatt, Weis and others ever got into the biographical interpretation of the Shakespeare canon, and that Stratfordians must stop doing that because it gives their opponents an advantage. In other works, Shapiro is advocating stifling a particular line of inquiry and is declaring a particular type of evidence 'off-limits. Shapiro's position isn't reflected in the SAQ article, which draws a false dichotomy between the type of evidence used by the two sides, claiming that Stratfordians don't use biographical evidence when Shapiro's whole point is that Greenblatt, Weis and other Stratfordians have used biographical evidence, and it has weakened the Stratfordian position and MUST BE STOPPED. In the article you quote Shapiro from the Alter interview on this very point:

Alter 2010 quotes James Shapiro: "Once you take away the argument that the life can be found in the works, those who don't believe Shakespeare wrote Shakespeare don't have any argument left."

The way Shapiro is advocating 'taking away the argument' is by telling Stratfordians to stop using biographical evidence.

I quoted above another comment by Shapiro to the same effect from the Alter interview:

[Shapiro] We do find more evidence every few years that points to Shakespeare. I think it would be more valuable if scholars, rather than turning over the evidence again, looked more closely at the assumptions governing the way that they read and teach the works and try to find the life in the works. I think if you turn off that faucet and suggest that others can't engage in that fantasy either, I think that will starve the controversy of a lot of its oxygen.

This time Shapiro makes his point even more clearly. He's saying Stratfordians have got to stop trying to find the life in the works because it gives their opponents an advantage.

On p. 58 Shapiro says:

Only one thing could have arrested all of this biographical speculation: admitting that a surprising number of the plays we call Shakespeare's were written collaboratively. For there's no easy way to argue that a coauthored play especially one in which it's hard to untangle who wrote which part, can be read autobiographically.

Once again, Shapiro is making clear that his objective is to stop anyone, Stratfordians and Oxfordians alike, from using biographical evidence, and expressing his enormous relief that coauthorship studies have stopped both Stratfordians and Oxfordians alike from engaging in biographical speculation.

Shapiro's position is not reflected in the SAQ article. The creation of a false dichotomy in the SAQ article which states that anti-Stratfordians make use of biographical evidence while Stratfordians don't constitutes original research on your part, which Wikipedia expressly forbids. And the failure of the SAQ article to fairly present Shapiro's attempt to impose intellectual censorship on his colleagues so as to choke off the life from the authorship controversy means that the article is not neutral, again violating one of Wikipedia's policy pillars.NinaGreen (talk) 16:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I should have mentioned that Shapiro's not only upset with Greenblatt and Weis for engaging in autobiographical research. He's upset with everyone from Edmund Malone on down. In the index of his book (p.332) he has this entry for Malone:

autobiographical allusions discovered in Shakespeare by [followed by a list of page numbers]

The SAQ article thus violates the Wikipedia policies of neutrality, original research and verifiability in creating a false dichotomy in which it is claimed that anti-Stratfordians use autobiographical evidence from the Shakespeare canon while Stratfordians don't.NinaGreen (talk) 17:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"The creation of a false dichotomy in the SAQ article which states that anti-Stratfordians make use of biographical evidence while Stratfordians don't constitutes original research on your part, which Wikipedia expressly forbids."

You are misrepresenting what the article says. It states that Strat scholars don't use biographical information gleaned from the works to attribute the works, but anti-Strats do. Have and do Strats use biographical speculation from the works to interpret them? Yes. Have they used to works to make biographical speculations? Yes, and that is what Shapiro objects to, beginning with Malone. Do Strats read a work, find a biography in it, and then use that information to attribute a work? No, they don't, but anti-Strats do. If it were a reliable way to attribute works there would only be one candidate instead of 50, 60, 70-something--however many there are. Your objections are invalid because you apparently don't understand the differences between how Strats and non-Strats use the works. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, that's mere cavilling. Shapiro devotes pages to Malone finding Shakspeare's life in the works. What is that other than attribution? If Malone or Greenblatt or Weis finds Shakespeare of Stratford's biography in the works, of course that strengthens the attribution of the Shakespeare canon to Shakespeare of Stratford. They weren't finding someone else's life in the works. They were deliberately finding Shakespeare of Stratford's life in the works, thus strengthening the attribution of the canon to him. Why else did Greenblatt write his book? You're engaging in original research here, ignoring Shapiro, and substituting your own opinion and synthesis of material to arrive at a dichotomy which is palpably false. It's a clear violation of three Wikipedia policies, neutrality, no original research, and verifiability.NinaGreen (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not cavilling at all. It's utterly central. If you have documentation saying that a historical person wrote plays, poems, directed films or whatever, then that's the person you attribute them to unless you have some very strong reason not to. Of course if you are writing a biography of that person you might use ther plays/poems/films to get some ideas about their personality, but it's a very dodgy method. If we had Chaucer's Canterbury Tales but no other information about the author how do you think we could identify his personality?: a bawdy miller fascinated by sex and farts; a pious anti-semitic prioress given to improving tales; a sexually ambivalent and amoral Pardoner? If we simply had Ridley Scott's films how do you think we could deduce anything about his life and personality from them, or even his nationality? Paul B (talk) 18:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, may I make a suggestion? Since Tom acts as though he owns the SAQ article and will not allow me to make any edits to make the article more neutral (and if I attempt to, he instantly reverts my edits), rather than arguing abstact points ad infinitum, and complaining pointlessly and erroneously on the Peer Review page about 'long rambling screeds of conspiracy theories', as you've just done, why don't you make some edits yourself to make the article more neutral, in line with the complaints by IronHand and Zweigenbaum, who wrote the comment at the top of this page? There's an obvious need for this to be done. Better yet, why don't you persuade Tom that you and he together should edit the article to make it more neutral. The rest of us would be happy to sit by and let that happen. You've been told by impartial bystanders (I don't know who IronHand and Zweigenbaum are, so I assume they're impartial) that it needs to be done. Why not get on with it, since neither of you will let anyone else do it?NinaGreen (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

If you think that I am acting as if I own this article, then please initiate the proper dispute resolution process. I asked you several times to discuss major edits on the talk page before inserting them, and you replied above that "if a problem develops because of a particular edit, that edit could move to the Discussion page and be reverted until agreement is reached." I have reverted some of your edits, modified others, and left others alone, so I am not stopping you from editing the page, and I resent your accusation that I am.

Tom, you're being disingenuous. The only edits of mine you've left alone are those which tighten and improve the wording.NinaGreen (talk) 16:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

One problem seems to be that you can't focus on a single point for very long nor can you grasp overall principles. You seem capable of only concentrating on one minute detail at a time while ignoring other points that are brought up and obsessively discussing your objections using novel interpretations of policy. If you want to edit Wikipedia, take some time to learn how to do so in compliance with policy, and that includes using the dispute resolution process instead of endlessly badgering other editors and wasting their time that could be better spent editing articles. You post so frequently that I get edit conflict notices about half the time when I try to respond to your complaints. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, you consistently take the discussion off track with analogies which merely derail the discussion. No-one has time to explore Chaucer's Canterbury Tales here, or Ridley Scott, or the blood libel, or the claim that Obama wasn't born in the U.S. and is a Muslim, or any one of the off-the-topic analogies you bring up. Please try to stay on topic.NinaGreen (talk) 18:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

It is difficult to imagine that anyone can be this obtuse. The analogies are designed to show the irrationality of your argument. If you can't see that you will never understand why your position makes no sense. The point is you do not attribute authorship based on the type of person you think ashould have written something. It's an almost entirely useless method unless there is direct information in the literature - such as including the author's name, or details about a particular location. Of course Shakespeare regularly gives his name in the sonnets - Will - but that is dismissed by most 'authorship theorists' because it does not fit their preferences. The exception is Derbyites - because it does fit their preferences. That's the point. The approach adopted by your confreres is to choose it when you like it and ignore it when you don't. Paul B (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, if you could argue the point itself, you would. Instead you constantly resort to analogies which are so far removed from the topic under discussion that they're a complete distraction. They're not at all helpful.NinaGreen (talk) 19:02, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Of course the point can be argued through Shakespeare's own work and has been many many times. The purpose of the analogies was to point out that this is a general truth. You seem to find arguing about general points of method very difficult. I understand that you like concrete archival detail, but that does not make abstracting points about method irrelevant. If we had no biographical information from the authors of many creative canons we would be hard put to make meaningful judgements about their author's lives and opinions. We can easily recognise that fact by doing thought experiments of the kind I gave examples of. There is nothing at all unusual about Shakespeare in this respect. Paul B (talk) 19:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"Tom, that's mere cavilling." No, it's apparent that you can't parse my or Shapiro's meaning. Your representation of Shapiro is distorted, and that you apparently don't understand his statements is the crux of the matter. He spells out his position quite clearly in his book:

“Even if Shakespeare occasionally drew in his poems and plays on personal experiences, and I don’t doubt that he did, I don’t see how anyone can know with any confidence if or when or where he does so. Surely he was too accomplished a writer to recycle them in the often clumsy and undigested way that critics in search of autobiographical traces—advocates and skeptics of his authorship alike—would have us believe. Because of that, and because we know almost nothing about his personal experiences, those moments in his work which build upon what he may have felt remain invisible to us, and were probably only slightly more visible to those who knew him well.

“It’s wiser to accept that these experiences can no longer be recovered. We don’t know what we are looking for in any case, and even if we did, I’m not at all sure we would know how to interpret it correctly. In the end, attempts to identify personal experiences will only result in acts of projection, revealing more about the biographer than about Shakespeare himself. It’s worth recalling the experience of T. S. Eliot, who was struck by the inability of contemporary biographers to untangle the personal from the fictional: ‘I am used … to having my personal biography reconstructed from passages which I got out of books, or which I invented out of nothing because they sounded well; and to having my biography invariably ignored in what I did write from personal experience.’

“If we can’t get the autobiographical in Eliot’s poetry and drama right—though there are many still alive who knew him, as well as a trove of letters and interviews to draw upon—what hope have we of doing so with Shakespeare?” (269-70)

That is very clear to anyone who has no axe to grind. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:38, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, nothing could be clearer than Shapiro's comments in the Alter interview. He's telling the academy point blank to shut up about finding Shakespeare of Stratford's life in the Shakespeare canon because it hasn't worked for Stratfordians, so they shouldn't do it anymore because it gives anti-Stratfordians an advantage. Shapiro says point blank that that line of intellectual inquiry needs to be choked off. That's censorship, pure and simple. And for the SAQ article to ignore it in discussing the treatment of evidence by the two sides in the debate is censorship as well, not to mention the other Wikipedia policies ignoring it violates, such as neutrality.NinaGreen (talk) 19:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

A point which needs to be represented in the SAQ article, and which is ignored in Tom and Paul's responses to my comments, is that Shapiro has deliberately and very clearly in his book and in the Alter interview taken the position that the academy should censor itself. No professor teaching Shakespeare at a university, according to Shapiro, should try to find Shakespeare of Stratford's life in the works, either when teaching his/her classes on whether researching and writing books and articles. Shapiro's deliberate recommendation to his colleagues that they choke off a particular line of intellectual inquiry is shocking, and to omit to mention it in the SAQ article would be a clear violation of the Wikipedia policy of neutrality.NinaGreen (talk) 18:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is Shapiro's view. It's a perfectly defensible position in some respects, but Shapiro is only referring to attempts to deduce Shakespeare's personal opinions and personal experiences on the basis of what he writes. He does not mean that no useful information can possibly be gleaned. Indeed he makes use himself of information about knowledge of grammar school set-texts that can be discerned from the plays. We all know that Shakespeare's plays have been described as Republican, Revolutionary, Royalist and even Fascist in their political content. There are so many characters expressing so many opinions about so many things! Paul B (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, great point. Shapiro himself does what he's forbidding his colleagues to do. He's convinced Shakespeare of Stratford went to a grammar school (rather than, say, having a private tutor), so he 'makes use himself of information about knowledge of grammar school set-texts that can be discerned from the plays'. I'd love to have the page reference for that tidbit. And of course it belies the statement made in the SAQ article about the types of evidence used by both sides in the debate.NinaGreen (talk) 19:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

So to you, Nina, "use higher standards of scholarship" = "censorship". Somehow that's not surprising, given how these conversations tend to go nowhere with no indication that you understand anything except your own obsessive point. I'm going to recommend you explore all the various dispute resolution mechanisms available on Wikipedia instead of continuing to try to persuade me of your objections; I suspect I've probably already taken away whatever lessons there are to be learned from your endless soliloquies. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:44, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, in order to defend Shapiro's attempt to impose censorship on his academic colleagues you're willing to throw the great Edmund Malone, Greenblatt, Weis and dozens if not hundreds of other establishment scholars who looked for the life of Shakespeare of Stratford in the Shakespeare canon under the bus? In your view they didn't use 'sufficiently high standards of scholarship', and need to be brought to heel by you and Shapiro. It's becoming clear why the SAQ article isn't neutral. I think you're far too close to the article to see that it's not neutral, despite IronHand and others clearly pointing out to you that that's the case.NinaGreen (talk) 18:58, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Original Research

This statement by Earl Showerman on the peer review page highlights another of the problems with the SAQ article. Not only is the SAQ article not neutral, it engages in original research. Here's Showerman's comment:

This statement regarding anti-Strratfordian research is very misleading: "Anti-Stratfordians rely on what they designate as circumstantial evidence: similarities between the characters and events portrayed in the works and the biography of their preferred candidates; literary parallels between the works and the known literary works of their candidate, and hidden codes and cryptographic allusions in Shakespeare's own works or texts written by contemporaries." In point of fact, authorship research explores the issues of early dating ("Dating Shakespeare's Plays" - ed. Kevin Gilvary - 2010), Italian topicalities ("The Shakespeare Guide to Italy" - Richard Paul Roe - 2010), political allegory, Shakespeare and the Law, and untranslated Greek sources, a much wider scope of research than proposed by the existing article. A review of on-line articles published in the peer-reviewed authorship journals, "The Oxfordian" and "Brief Chronicles" will attest to these points. The omission of any mention of the work of Mark Anderson ("Shakespeare by Another Name" - 2005), William Farina ("De Vere as Shakespeare" - 2006), or Diana Price ("Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography" - 2001) suggests the selected references are clearly prejudicial against the authorship challenge. Earl Showerman

NinaGreen (talk) 15:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I am quite capable of reading the PR page, which seems to have attracted lots of attention from your listserv subscribers who have never edited anything on Wikipedia before now. Either Showerman hasn't actually read the article or he has poor comprehension. Anderson was in the article but he was taken out when the history section was shrunk; his contribution only extends Looney's methodology of matching events in the plays to the life of Oxford (and I was thinking about mentioning him in conjunction with the biographical readings, but I am trying to tend to the PR comments that were actually useful before adding anything). Price is included. Nothing that has not received an academic response can be included in the article, which you would know if you had read the policies as you claim to have. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, for the record Earl Showerman is not a member of my listserv. Please stop making false allegations of this sort. And you've avoided addressing the point made by Earl Showerman which is directly relevant to the issue of whether you're synthesizing material on your own, and engaging in original research. He has pointed out that Oxfordians use more types of evidence than the SAQ article acknowledges in its false dichotomy concerning the types of evidence used by both sides. It's all about neutrality, and it's examples such as this which demonstrate clearly just how non-neutral the SAQ article is.

Moreover, you're wrong as to Wikipedia policy when you state that 'Nothing that has not received an academic response can be included in the article'. Anti-Stratfordians can be quoted as sources on themselves as, for example, Charlton Ogburn on his views concerning the Stratford grammar school records. Here's the policy:

Wikipedia:Verifiability

Self-published or questionable sources as sources on themselves

Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the requirement in the case of self-published sources that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

the material is not unduly self-serving;

it does not involve claims about third parties;

it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;

there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;

the article is not based primarily on such sources.

NinaGreen (talk) 19:42, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"Moreover, you're wrong as to Wikipedia policy when you state that 'Nothing that has not received an academic response can be included in the article'." From WP:Fringe, Unwarrented promotion of fringe theories:

"Proponents of fringe theories have in the past used Wikipedia as a forum for promoting their ideas. Existing policies discourage this type of behavior: if the only statements about a fringe theory come from the inventors or promoters of that theory, then various "What Wikipedia is not" rules come into play." Tom Reedy (talk) 20:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I didn't post Earl Showerman's comments from the PR page here so you alone could read them. There are other editors of this page who need to be aware of the violation in the SAQ article of the Wikipedia policies of no original research, neutrality and verifiability. You seem to be exhibiting more and more an attitude which suggests you feel the SAQ article is your own personal site, and that nothing can be done by any editor on it without your specific permission, another contravention of Wikipedia policy. I know you've put a great deal of effort into the SAQ article, but you don't own it, and your insistence that any edit must first be cleared with you, and your instantaneous reversion, without any discussion, of all edits which have been made with which you don't agree, suggests that you feel you do own it.NinaGreen (talk) 18:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Crux of the Problem

We seem to be at a standstill. Tom urges that we go to dispute resolution. I feel dispute resolution is a waste of time, and will simply further exacerbate the problem. I haven't been involved, but I understand dispute resolution has already been used so often on this page that another attempt at it will merely harden positions on both sides, and perhaps even frustrate Wikipedia administrators to the point that they will ban some editors, as has happened in the past.

The crux of the problem is threefold. The article is not neutral. The article engages throughout in synthesis and original research. The article uses sources which, although in themselves reliable in terms of Wikipedia's definition of reliability, are not reliable in terms of the point Tom claims they support. This is all defended in terms of the Wikipedia policy that the majority view must be presented as the majority view. But that is not the issue, and no-one has argued against that Wikipedia policy. As per Wikipedia policy, the majority view must be clearly presented as the majority view, but that does not mean that in implementing that Wikipedia policy the article must be written in such a way as to crush and diminish the alternate view by citing as many vitriolic comments as can be found on the majority view side, and misrepresenting the alternate view as without a shred of support for either its hypothesis or methodology in academia. Yet that is precisely how the article is written.

For the past few days I've pointed out some of the specific sections in which original research, lack of neutrality and use of reliable sources in support of claims which they don't actually support are evident. I even did some editing to try to improve those specific sections to make them more neutral. I also explained why some of the reasoning (i.e. synthesis and original research by earlier editors) can't be supported by the sources. My edits were instantly reverted by Tom, and I've been stonewalled by Tom and Paul on this Discussion page and on the Peer Review Discussion page with respect to every point I've brought up. I've suggested as an alternative that Tom and Paul tackle the non-neutrality issue themselves, since they won't let anyone else do it, and nothing has resulted from that suggestion either.

So as I say, we are at a standstill. There's simply no way of moving forward. But if there's no way of moving forward, by the same token Tom is unlikely to ever get the article past the peer review process, and have it granted FA status because it violates Wikipedia policies in the ways mentioned above. So everyone loses, not the least readers of the Wikipedia article who hoped to find a clear unbiased statement of the authorship controversy in this article.NinaGreen (talk) 15:50, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina, I agree you have “pointed out some of the specific sections in which original research, lack of neutrality and use of reliable sources in support of claims which they don't actually support are evident” according to your interpretations (although I have yet to see a specific, coherent list of the particular offending edits), and from that exercise it is clear that your definitions of POV, OR, and RS are substantially different than that of the Wikipedia and academic communities, which is obvious by your contention that the SAQ is not a fringe theory or that no academic consensus exists that it is.

It is also evident that you are editing on the premise that your private beliefs must be negotiated with when we edit this article. That you can marshal the support of anonymous editors who have never before appeared on Wikipedia or made one edit adds no weight to your arguments. Wikipedia is not an exercise in democracy nor are the content policies determined by public opinion.

You say you won’t use the mechanisms Wikipedia has in place to address your concerns about neutrality and OR, yet you complain that things are at a standstill. Quite frankly, your repetitious postings are getting tiresome. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, I've been very patient and polite as all get out, but your stonewalling is getting tiresome. I've put forward many specific suggestions in good faith for improving the neutrality and accuracy of the SAQ article. They have nothing to do with my personal POV, and they ARE in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I have background which could be helpful in improving the SAQ article, just as I had background which allowed me to improve the Edward de Vere article (in fact I rewrote the entire thing, and it's now a factual and neutral article which other editors are currently working on in order to improve it still further). You continue to reject what I have to offer in terms of improving the SAQ article, inventing one excuse for doing so after another, and constantly suggesting dispute resolution for motives which I can't fathom. If you could just let someone else do some work on the SAQ article, there would be no need for dispute resolution. Instead you continue to stonewall every attempt to improve an article which definitely needs improvement.NinaGreen (talk) 23:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

"I've put forward many specific suggestions in good faith for improving the neutrality and accuracy of the SAQ article."

They should be easy to list, then. I'm not going to slog through thousands of words to find those gems; perhaps you'd care to list them in a coherent list sans your editorial commentary?

Tom, you don't own this page. Having already provided you with numerous examples of the inaccuracies, lack of neutrality and use of original research in the article, I'm not obligated to find them all over again myself in order to provide you with a concise list, as though the page were your own personal property and you can set the conditions under which every other editor works.

I've offered to edit the page. All I need is for you to step back and let me do the work and improve the article, and not revert every substantive edit I make. I'd be quite happy for you (and Paul) to do the editing yourselves to make the page neutral, but you've both refused to do it. Even though everyone's telling you and Paul that the page isn't neutral and doesn't reflect the current reality of the authorship controversy, you both continue to take the position that the article is perfect as it is. Why don't you just step back and let people who can fix the neutrality issue get on with it? NinaGreen (talk) 01:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Why are you afraid of dispute resolution, Nina? And what "stonewalling" are you talking about? Lack of attention to what words mean is part of the problem of editing here, and to me stonewalling means "Delay or block (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies". I have been anything but evasive; you know exactly my position, and I have not refused to answer questions but have been more than forthcoming. In fact, you seem to be the one who is stonewalling, because you pick out one detail out of several points that your interlocutors put to you and ignore the rest and act as if you've responded adequately, and you spout vague charges of censorship and being blocked from the page when no such thing has happened. What is the Oxfordian definition of stonewalling?

I am extremely tired of all this time-wasting bloviation and hand-waving. Go to WP:FRINGE/N and ask the simple question, "Is the SAQ a fringe theory?" That's all you have to do. I'm sure everybody will chime in and you'll get your answer, and I think that's probably why you refuse to do it. The default category for the SAQ at the present time is that of a fringe theory, and until you get it changed that's what it will continue to be. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:38, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

As someone that has been following this debate from way before NinaGreen or Zweigenbaum joined it, I have been personally attacked above ("...anonymous editors who have never before appeared on Wikipedia or made one edit..."). This is not my field of expertise (just made an edit in a completely different field if you check my history, and I am one of the few editors in Wikipedia who was never "anonymous," from the first day I joined it. I even have a discussion about this in my talk page.) I will for the first time join forces openly with the sceptics in this debate and I will subsequently revert myself Tom Reedy's summary removal of the POV tag from the SAQ main article. I really need to start catching up on Reedy and Kathman to understand a little better what is really going on here in the real world... warshy^talk 20:08, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

How can you have been personally attacked if you joined the team after I made the comment? I have never considered you to be a partisan editor. And you might want to read TEMPLATE:POV and see what conditions its use.

And if you want to know "what is really going on here in the real world, here's what the SAQ article looked like before I ever made an edit, almost one year ago. That's what you're defending. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

washy, as far as I can see your only comment here has been to ask for a link to the Hotson book, which I provided. So why on earth would you think you were being attacked by anyone. It makes no sense. Paul B (talk) 23:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

To remove the tag now, on the face of interested onlookers such as myself, after more than a whole week of intense debate as if to imply:

• Do not use this template unless there is an ongoing dispute in an article.

that there is no ongoing dispute here, is beyond ludicrous. It is unbeliavable chutzpa, nay it is really unbeliavably underhanded tactics, as I already said. Nothing less. Let's leave all the special interests of invested scholars aside for a moment, and most of all, let's leave aside the WP policies tactics and arguments. The new debate that started a week ago here has a clear line of definition for me. This is the clear line that cannot be made disappear with the wave of a simple wikitag: Is the view of the sceptics a fringe/conspiracy theory, or is it a legitimate minority view. I think for any uninterested onlooker that is really reading all the intense argumentation that is going on here, it has been proven without a doubt that it is a legitimate minority view. It is not just a "fringe/conspiracy theory." Until this basic point is clearly reflected on the article, that tag cannot be removed. Not to my view. And I have no illusions that it is still a long, difficult, uphill battle to achive just this minor achievement. warshy^talk 22:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Very well, in that case, you need dispute resolution, and I suggest you post a query at WP:FRINGE/N, which I have suggested to Nina more than once. How "intense argumentation" proves it is a legitimate minority view among academics (which is the benchmark for Wikipedia, as I'm sure you know) is inexplicable to me; if anything it proves the opposite. You might be surprised to know that the sources used to reference the initial lede statement are mild compared to many others out there from academics, which range from "lunatic fringe" to apparently serious accusations of mental illness. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm stopping here, because obviously there is no end to the debate. [It was my intellingence and my common sense that were attacked, nay mocked, dismissed as idiotic by the unbelievably underhanded tactics]. For any one who has followed this debate for a reasonable amount of time it is clear what the overall tactics are: tag as fringe and dismiss. That is how this version of this article was conceived to begin with. Once you tag it as fringe, and you also get it recognized as such, you can also trample and dismiss further as "conspiracy theory" or even better, mental illness. This is how it started and it will not stop here, it is clear. I will leave it to the specialists again. I am signing out for now. warshy^talk 00:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

So you won't go to dispute resolution either. Why is it that those who are complaining that the article is violating neutrality and original research policies and guidelines don't trust the Wikipedia process to get those violations remedied? Tom Reedy (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is so funny... Do you think I have time to make this my occupation for the next months of my life. Do you think I care about it enough to go to court... Do you think I want to own this article and the subject matter as you do? Who cares. Take and make it your own. Actually you don't even have to follow my advice, because it is clear that that's what you've been doing here for a long time. No. I just prefer Nina's standstill. It is good enough for me. Be well. warshy^talk 00:54, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

It is not a legitimate minority view because actual Shakespeare scholarship dismisses it. There have been huge advances in stylometry in recent years. All of these confirm Shakespeare's distinctive style and disprove Oxford and other candidates. Of course it's impossible to disprove those whose works do not survive, such as Derby. What strikes me most about this "debate" is the fact that the most implausible candidate of all - Oxford - is defended fanatically, but the most plausible (apart, obviously, Will himself) - Derby - is utterly ignored by the fanatics. That suggests that this debate is not about reasoned argument; it's abut emotional need. Paul B (talk) 23:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

One Small Edit

OK, I've made one small substantive edit. Let's see how it goes.

This is what was there:

Anti-Stratfordian arguments share several characteristics.<refMatus 1994, p. 15 note./ref> They all attempt to disqualify William Shakespeare as the author due to perceived inadequacies in his education or biography;

This is the change I made:

Anti-Stratfordian arguments share several characteristics. They all attempt to disqualify William Shakespeare as the author due to perceived inadequacies in his education or biography;<refMatus 1994, p. 15 note./ref>

The Matus note on p. 15 doesn't support the first sentence above. The note reads:

This is an opportune point to explain the term that will be used most often for those who question the Shakespeare authorship. The proponents of Oxford have succeeded in pushing their candidate to the forefront to no small degree by refining, amplifying and adding to the research the supporters of other candidates have, over the years, developed against the "Stratford man." Therefore, rather than using ponderous general terms for the "anti-Stratfordians," the challengers will be referred to by the generic term Oxfordians, except when clearly inappropriate.

There is nothing in the Matus note which permits it to be cited for the statement that anti-Stratfordian arguments share SEVERAL characteristics. Matus mentions only one characteristic, i.e. that Oxfordians have refined the arguments against Shakespeare of Stratford made by proponents of other authorship theories). So I've moved the Matus note so that it's cited as support for the second sentence, not the first. (I don't think it adequately supports the second sentence either for reasons I could explain but will omit for the moment, but I moved it rather than delete it so as to avoid a direct revert by Tom.)

But really, what kind of citation was this anyway (before I moved it)? Matus' note is very brief, without any supporting evidence or explication of the point it's being cited for, and, even more significantly, Matus didn't write the note for the purpose for which it's cited in the SAQ article. He wrote it to explain why he calls all challengers of orthodoxy 'Oxfordians' throughout his book, rather than 'using ponderous general terms for the 'anti-Stratfordians'. When the SAQ article makes a very broad generalization such as 'Anti-Stratfordian arguments share several characteristics', and cites something like the Matus note in support, what are we looking at other than (1) non-neutrality, (2) synthesis and original research, and (3) the citation of otherwise reliable sources for points which they don't support?NinaGreen (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Matus says that he is using the term "Oxfordian" as a generic for "anti-Stratforidian" because their arguments are all alike and he doesn't like the term "anti-Stratfordian". His investigation into the various theories as put forth in his book gives him the necessary expertise to make such a judgement. Nevertheless, I agree it could be better cited, and when I get time I'll find one that uses that language explicitly. Or you could find one; such statements are ubiquitous in the literature, as I'm sure you know. I'm currently working on the punch list. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:47, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

This page is not a newsgroup for discussing the authorship question

All editors please read WP:TALK and stop crowding the page with arguments for or against Shakespeare or with airing your personal views. The purpose of the talk page is to discuss specific changes in the article. Tom Reedy (talk) 19:20, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I confess I got carried away with the Langley/Gardiner stuff which has b-all to do with authorship questions. It was just so interesting. Paul B (talk) 19:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Zweigenbaum's rudeness

This page is not a venue for scolding or trolling, either. You are very free with your personal attacks, Zweigenbaum. Try to make your points in a more collegial way, please; Wikipledia is not a battleground. Was this you talking? (It's getting pretty hopeless to tell who says what on this page. But it sounds like you.):

The judgment was asserted and followed by unacceptable and arbitrary censorship. Is it possible you are also responsible for moving the lengthy comments below to an out of the way archive location, so you would not have to deal with their import? Is this neutrality? I seriously doubt. It appears to be an action in bad faith.

Removing a POV tag is not "censorship". I suggest you take a look at Template:POV for the proper use of the POV tag (which does not include "drive-by tagging" by brand new users). And assuming bad faith on no ground is utterly against Wikipedia principle and policy. Bishonen | talk 20:11, 18 December 2010 (UTC).

Removing the POV tag

When I wrote the above, I wasn't aware that you had just reinserted the POV tag. And of course you, when you reinserted it, can't have been aware of my post. But now presumably you are. Please, as I suggested, take a look at Template:POV to familiarise yourself with the proper use of the POV tag, which does not include "drive-by tagging" by brand new users. And please don't edit war to put it back! Since you're so new, you may not be aware of the policy WP:3RR. I strongly advise you to read it before you edit the article again.

I have removed the tag; it's not appropriate on this article. I hope you will read my links about it before you again explain to the rest of us what the tag is for in your opinion. Bishonen | talk 01:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC).

NPOV violations

List them here. Be specific and say why. Tom Reedy (talk) 23:29, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I may work on it or not as the time allows. But in the 'final' article, to my mind, the one that may not have the tag on top of it anymore, there will have to be a statement clearly saying that for a long time the sceptics view was dismissed as mere "fringe/conspiracy theory," not as serious scholarship, that also contributes to the development of knowledge of the subject matter (as even Shapiro recognizes to a certain degree in "Contested Will"). "Today" this is not the case anymore. But this day is still a long ways, I think... warshy^talk 23:44, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

So in other words you are demanding that the article comply to your own personal belief instead of the academic consensus. Interesting. Tom Reedy (talk) 00:22, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Warshy, what you say is utterly untrue. It was closest to being mainstream around about 1900-1930. It is now totally discreditred among actual Shakespeare scholars. The internet and the growth of cheap publishing has made it more popularly known, but that's all. Paul B (talk) 00:02, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, you wrote:

It is now totally discreditred among actual Shakespeare scholars

In light of your comment it seems necessary to post the entire article on the 2007 survey of those who teach Shakespeare in U.S. universities, which found that 72% of those surveyed covered the authorship controversy in their classes, while a total of 17% saw either 'good reason' or 'possibly good reason' to doubt that Shakespeare of Stratford was the principal author of the poems and plays in the canon. Neither 72% nor 17% are figures which support your claim that the hypothesis is 'now totally discredited among actual Shakespeare scholars'. The majority in the academy (82%) see no reason to doubt Shakespeare of Stratford's authorship. On the other hand, there is a substantial minority (17%) in the academy who either see 'good' or 'possibly good' reason to doubt. That's the reality of the situation. This survey is what should be cited at the beginning of the SAQ article as representative of the current view of Shakespeare scholars (i.e. the academy).

Here's the article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/education/shakespeare.html?_r=2

Shakespeare Reaffirmed

By WILLIAM S. NIEDERKORN

Published: April 22, 2007

HERE’S good news for Stratfordians as they celebrate the Bard’s birth, on April 23: Professors believe in him.

Did He or Didn’t He? That Is the Question Read the complete survey results and methodology.

In an Education Life survey of American professors of Shakespeare, 82 percent said there is no good reason to question whether William Shakespeare of Stratford-on-Avon was the principal author of the poems and plays in the canon; 6 percent said there is good reason, while 11 percent saw possibly good reason.

What has come to be known as the “authorship question” dates back more than 150 years. Doubters allege that Shakespeare lacked the education, library and foreign travel to have produced the English language’s greatest works, and have pushed for acceptance in academe. In one small victory, next fall Brunel University, one of England’s plate-glass universities of the 1960s, will offer what is thought to be the first graduate program in Shakespeare authorship studies.

But where do American colleges and universities stand on the question?

Last month, 265 professors filled out an online survey for Education Life. The professors teach Shakespeare in the English departments of public and private four-year colleges and universities, which were selected randomly. The survey has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 5 percentage points.

Sixty-one percent of respondents said they considered the authorship question a theory without convincing evidence, and 32 percent found it a waste of time and distraction in the classroom; 3 percent considered it an exciting opportunity for scholarship, and 2 percent said it has profound implications for the field.

Students, though, can expect to learn something about the issue: 72 percent of professors said they address the authorship question in their classes. Others (26 percent) wait for students to ask about it; 2 percent don’t mention it at all.

The professors were better versed in writings by advocates for the Earl of Oxford, the most prominent alternative candidate, than by Shakespeare defenders. The Oxfordians J. Thomas Looney, Charlton Ogburn and Mark Anderson had been read by 29 percent, 26 percent and 17 percent respectively; the Stratfordians Scott McCrea and Irvin Matus had been read by 11 and 10 percent.

Expressing a view that resounded in the responses, one professor wrote, “I would be thrilled if people would get half as excited about the plays as they did about wondering who wrote them.”

NinaGreen (talk) 01:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is astonishing. You are complaining about original research and you think this is a reliable source proving that the SAQ is an acceptable academic topic and not a fringe theory? And I specifically created this subsection to list specific NPOV violations in the article so we could all take a look at them, not to revisit your assertion that the SAQ is a minority rather than a fringe view. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Warshy, two points. First, "those who teach Shakespeare in U.S. universities" is not the same group as "Shakespeare scholars". Shakespeare scholars are those who conduct and publish peer reviewed research in relation to Shakespeare and his works. They are likely to be a minority of those who are teaching the material. The test for whether it is a fringe theory should examine the status of the theory amongst the scholarly community and in the scholarly literature. Second, teaching a theory is not necessarily relevant to the status of the theory. In classes in which philosophy of science has been a subject, I have taught simple positivist empiricism in order to use it to demonstrate certain concepts, and then in order to explain its rejection by 20th century scholars. I taught it, but I didn't accept it. The Shakespear authorship question can be a useful pedagogical device, without implying it has any actual merit. That would not however be a valid basis on which to approach the subject in an encyclopedia article. I think the status of SAQ as WP:FRINGE should not be opened to debate yet again. It is a fringe theory, and I think it is to the credit of people like Tom Reedy that they are going to great trouble to construct an article that both explains the theory's existence while trying to retain a key underlying message: this is a fringe theory accepted by almost no serious scholar. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:13, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Hamiltonstone, you've raised a very significant point which perhaps explains why the SAQ article is not neutral. There is a world out there besides the very small group of Shakespeare 'scholars', i.e. those who conduct and publish peer reviewed research in relation to Shakespeare and his works. I don't know how many individuals are included in that very small group, and I suspect you don't know either. But let's say for the sake of argument that you're right (without conceding the distinction, because I don't think it's a valid one). Then why are individuals cited in the first footnote who are not, and never were, members of that group, or who, if they were once members of it, are either retired or deceased?

Here's the footnote:

Kathman 2003, p. 621: "...in fact, antiStratfordism has remained a fringe belief system for its entire existence. Professional Shakespeare scholars mostly pay little attention to it, much as evolutionary biologists ignore creationists and astronomers dismiss UFO sightings."; Schoenbaum 1991, p. 450: "A great many of the schismatics are (as we have seen) distinguished in fields other than literary scholarship, and their ignorance of fact and method is as dismaying as their non-specialist love of Shakespeare's plays is touching."; Nicholl 2010, p. 4 quotes Gail Kern Paster, director of the Folger Shakespeare Library: "To ask me about the authorship question ... is like asking a palaeontologist to debate a creationist's account of the fossil record."; Nelson 2004, p. 151: "I do not know of a single professor of the 1,300-member Shakespeare Association of America who questions the identity of Shakespeare ... Among editors of Shakespeare in the major publishing houses, none that I know questions the authorship of the Shakespeare canon."; Carroll 2004, pp. 278–9: "I am an academic, a member of what is called the 'Shakespeare Establishment,' one of perhaps 20,000 in our land, professors mostly, who make their living, more or less, by teaching, reading, and writing about Shakespeare—and, some say, who participate in a dark conspiracy to suppress the truth about Shakespeare.... I have never met anyone in an academic position like mine, in the Establishment, who entertained the slightest doubt as to Shakespeare's authorship of the general body of plays attributed to him. Like others in my position, I know there is an anti-Stratfordian point of view and understand roughly the case it makes. Like St. Louis, it is out there, I know, somewhere, but it receives little of my attention."; Pendleton 1994, p. 21: "Shakespeareans sometimes take the position that to even engage the Oxfordian hypothesis is to give it a countenance it does not warrant. And, of course, any Shakespearean who reads a hundred pages on the authorship question inevitably realizes that nothing he can say will prevail with those persuaded to be persuaded otherwise."; Gibson 2005, p. 30.

This footnote establishes that your position (and I gather it's the position from which the SAQ article was written), is entirely inconsistent with the sources cited for it in the footnote, since some individuals cited in the footnote were never members of that small group, while others are retired or deceased, and can hardly be said to represent the current view of members of that small group.NinaGreen (talk) 18:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Since hamiltonstone is seeking to define terms, I have another pertinent question. The lede in the SAQ article states:

all but a few Shakespeare scholars and literary historians consider it a fringe theory with no hard evidence, and for the most part disregard it except to rebut or disparage the claims

Who among the sources for that statement cited in the footnote I've copied above is a 'literary historian'?

And what exactly is the definition of a literary historian in terms of the subject matter of the SAQ article?NinaGreen (talk) 20:37, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

More inconsistencies. The position taken by hamiltonstone above is this:

Shakespeare scholars are those who conduct and publish peer reviewed research in relation to Shakespeare and his works. They are likely to be a minority of those who are teaching the material.

Yet one of the sources cited in the footnote directly contradicts hamiltonstone's position (and Paul Barlow's position on the same point as well). D. Allen Carroll is quoted in the footnote as follows:

Carroll 2004, pp. 278–9: "I am an academic, a member of what is called the 'Shakespeare Establishment,' one of perhaps 20,000 in our land, professors mostly, who make their living, more or less, by teaching, reading, and writing about Shakespeare . . . ."

In other words, a member of the Shakespeare establishment defines it to include the 20,000 professors in the U.S. who make their living by teaching Shakespeare, but hamiltonstone and Paul Barlow beg to differ with Carroll (while citing him as their source!), and define Shakespeare scholars as only a select group 'who are likely to be a minority of those who are teaching the material'. Could there be a better example of the lack of neutrality in the SAQ article? Or a better example of original research by editors of the SAQ article, substituting their own views for those of the very academics they quote as their sources?

There is also another example of the lack of neutrality by editors of the SAQ article, an example of selective quotation. The editors of the SAQ article suppressed the very next sentence in Carroll's article in the Tennessee Law Review from which they are quoting:

I may not be, therefore, a person fit to champion the cause on behalf of which I have such strong feelings and which seems to me so self-evident.

I'm not going to debate whether Carroll is or is not 'a person fit to champion a cause on which he has such strong feelings'. But the selective quotation of Carroll's comments by the editors of the SAQ article speaks for itself.NinaGreen (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Nina, the term "professors" in the Niederkorn article refers to teachers in "public and private private four-year colleges and universities, which were selected randomly". It does not refer to specialists on Shakespeare. Almost all literature teachers and drama teachers "teach Shakespeare" in some context. That doesn't mean they know anything about detailed scholarship on the topic. Niederkorn , as you know, is well known promotor of anti-Statfordianism. The survey is worthless as evidence. Paul B (talk) 10:29, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Paul, are you aware that you have just called a New York Times survey 'worthless as evidence' which is cited as a reliable source in the SAQ article and was cited as such when Tom submitted the SAQ article for peer review?

This is a very clear example of why the SAQ article is not neutral. When it serves your purpose to cite the survey in the SAQ as a reliable source, you cite it as such. When I refer to it as a reliable source, you state unequivocally that that same survey is 'worthless as evidence', and denigrate the survey methodology (which is original research on your part).NinaGreen (talk) 17:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The NYT is a relaiable source. That means it usually reports what it reports as accurately as possible. What I said is that the survey is worthless as evidence that that there is some sort of significant minority acceptance of the legitimacy of SAQ within the community of Shakespeare scholars. I did not imply that the the survey cannot be mentioned in the article. You are confused about what I was saying. Paul B (talk) 20:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

The NYT survey is mentioned in the article along with a link in the history section. It is not in any way a reliable source about what the academic consensus is about the subject. What Nina wants to do is ignore the opinion of the Shakespeare Association of America, which has banned the SAQ as an acceptable topic for papers and conferences, and substitute the results of polling 265 Shakespeare professors--whatever they are. The poll incorporates selection bias; those who answered that the question "Which of the following best describes your opinion of the Shakespeare authorship question?" positively ("Has profound implications for the field"-2 percent, or "An exciting opportunity for scholarship"-3 percent) is within the 5 percent margin of error, and the respondents were forced to choose from vague pre-selected answers. The poll is only proof of the tendency of the anti-Stratfordian mind to jump to conclusions on too little data. If the topic is merely a minority viewpoint worthy of academic study, why is the Shakespeare Authorship Coalition circulating their Declaration of Reasonable Doubt petition with the stated goal "to legitimize the issue in academia so students, teachers and professors can feel free to pursue it"? The petition itself is evidence that it is a fringe theory and not accepted in academe. In fact, this entire conversation on this talkpage has nothing to do with improving the article, but appears to be one more tactic to reach that goal. Unfortunately for them, neither science not history is determined by a vote.

I would also add that this same conversation has been rehearsed many times on Wikipedia. Anti-Stratfordians look at the encyclopedia as a vehicle to promote their theories, and every time someone tries to improve this article to reflect the academic consensus and comply to Wikipedia policy, new and SPA editors jump in to obstruct and delay. Tom Reedy (talk) 22:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you wrote:

What Nina wants to do is ignore the opinion of the Shakespeare Association of America, which has banned the SAQ as an acceptable topic for papers and conferences

On the contrary. If such a ban exists, it SHOULD be cited in the footnote quoted above. It is an excellent example of the VERY TYPE OF EVIDENCE I've been stating should be cited in that footnote since it is evidence which is representative of the current consensus of the academy. Please cite it forthwith.

What should NOT be cited in that footnote as evidence of the current consensus of the academy is the views of individuals who have never been members of the academy, or who are retired or deceased, and thus cannot represent the current consensus of the academy IF the definition of the academy is to be the restricted definition which hamiltonstone and Paul Barlow have put forward (see my reply to hamiltonstone above).NinaGreen (talk) 22:33, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

After Tom made the categorical statement above that the Shakespeare Association 'had banned the SAQ as an acceptable topic for papers and conferences', I e-mailed the SAA, and received this reply from the President this morning:

Mr. Reedy is in error. The SAA does not have 'an opinion' on the authorship question. Moreover, there is no ban on speaking or writing about that topic at our annual conference. Several so-called Oxfordians are members of the organization and have presented papers at that meeting.

There could not be much clearer evidence of the non-neutrality of the SAQ article under Tom's editorship of it, or of the original research which is and has been going on in connection with the SAQ, than the fact that Tom made this patently untrue statement on this Discussion page about the official SAA position.16:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it appears I was in error. IIRC, I got that from an interview with Shapiro in the Journal of Higher Education or another journal. I'll try to find it again, although it is moot now. I do know that Charles Boyle has spoken at the SAA conference; his experience can be found here. I've alos talked with other Oxfordians who said their presentations were cancelled because of their authorship beliefs. I'm sure you're familiar with the incident. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:33, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Tom, you've taken ownership of the SAQ article and claim to be an authority on the authorship controversy, yet you didn't know what the current SAA position on the authorship issue is, and misinformed everyone reading this page about it, and if I hadn't e-mailed the SAA (which you, of course, could have done yourself), everyone reading this page would still be completely misinformed as to the SAA position. You seem to be brushing that off as an irrelevant and minor error. It's not.

It is a minor error, Nina; it wasn't put into the article and it was my belief at the time. I thought about e-mailing them myself, but I have other things to do. I also thought about suggesting you do so, but you have demonstrated little willingness to go beyond lobbying on this talk page, so I didn't. I am happy that you took some initiative.

And as if one error isn't enough, you now state that you're SURE that I'm familiar with some incident or other involving cancellation of presentations by the SAA which I've NEVER HEARD OF, and am not in the least 'familiar with'.

Lynne Kositsky told me that she and Roger Stritmatter were prevented from presenting a paper about The Tempest at an SAA conference. I assumed you knew about it because they made their complaints known, and since you're a high-profile Oxfordian who runs an Oxfordian web site and an Oxfordian newsgroup, I thought you had at least heard about it.

A pattern of unsubstantiated allegations is beginning to develop here.NinaGreen (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Call 911, Nina. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

There are many editors like myself who have effectively delegated care of this article to people like Tom Reedy: there is no ownership issue. This section invites those supporting the NPOV tag to list their concerns; be specific and say why. I see no evidence-based support for an NPOV tag. Every contentious issue (there are hundreds at Wikipedia) has a core of editors who support the scholarship view, and another core who want other material introduced (material that would unduly suggest support for an alternative view). If the NPOV tag is to stay, there must be a clear statement of what material in the article violates NPOV, and there must be reasons to explain why that material is NPOV, and there must be references to support the claims. Johnuniq (talk) 02:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Johnuniq, in view of the patently erroneous claim Tom made about the official position of the SAA on the authorship issue (see above), is it wise of editors like you to 'have effectively delegated care of this article to people like Tom Reedy'?NinaGreen (talk) 16:35, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know anybody who is quoted who isn't or wasn't a member of SAA, so I have no idea what you're going on about. The statement is referenced with reliable sources according to Wikipedia's standards, and I don't know that quoting a directive or memorandum of the SAA would qualify as a WP:PR. Whether a person is dead or retired has nothing to do with it; the academic consensus has been the same since around 1900 from all the sources I've read, and hasn't budged. Stanley Wells, Chairman of the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust and acknowledged the world’s leading expert on Shakespeare, calls anti-Stratfordian evidence "nonsense" and states that "There is no room for reasonable doubt that William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon wrote ... the works traditionally ascribed to him, and maybe one or two others," and said, "All theories ... rely on conspiracy theory and a lot of them are, well really, pretty crazy." Shakespeare: an Oxford Guide, published by the Oxford University Press, about as WP:RS as you can get, is where Kathman's essay is found.

But of course you know all this, yet you insist that this article cater to your personal beliefs instead of Wikipedia policy. If you want to clear, black-and-white decision that the SAQ is or is not a fringe theory, take your question to WP:FRINGE/N. I already know it is, and so does the academic community.

I am tired of posting about this. When you post your query to the fringe noticeboard, I'll reiterate my case. Until then, you'll have to be content with the 10,000 or so words I've written on this talkpage and the Oxford talkpage. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia Policy on Ownership of Articles

Tom,

I and other editors have pointed out that the SAQ article does not meet Wikipedia policy and guidelines because it is not neutral, contains original research, and cites otherwise reliable sources for points which the sources do not support. Numerous examples have been offered, both here and on the Peer Review page, of specific problems with the article in those areas. You have refused to do anything to correct the problems yourself, and have reverted every substantive edit I've made to try to correct them. You now insist that I and other editors provide you with a concise list of the problems which have already been mentioned. You are clearly of the view that you own the page, in contravention of WP:OWN. You will not correct problems which have been identified yourself, you will not allow other editors to correct them, and you are trying to control the manner in which other editors work and to waste their time by demanding that they provide you with a concise list of problems which have already been identified on this Discussion Page and on the Peer Review page, and which you ignored when they were identified.

In addition, you have now crossed a line by calling me obsessive, and a 'fanatic'. You wrote:

This is astonishing. You are complaining about original research and you think this is a reliable source proving that the SAQ is an acceptable academic topic and not a fringe theory? And I specifically created this subsection to list specific NPOV violations in the article so we could all take a look at them, not to revisit your assertion that the SAQ is a minority rather than a fringe view. Tom Reedy (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This is unacceptable.NinaGreen (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree I crossed the line of civil discourse and apologise for the fanatic comment and retract it, and also refractor my other comment. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:44, 19 December 2010 (UTC)