Talk:Syria

Invalid Source on Dayan Admitting to Israel Provoking Clashes

I looked up the source currently designed number 28, that being for many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel. It uses a source allegedly from the New York Times. I looked up the article title in the New York Times search, which allows for full text searches back to the 1800's. I was unable to locate the article using the title. I am inclined to remove the quote, but before I provoke an edit war I wanted to get feedback. Westeast (talk) 12:59, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

"I know about it. I saw them, and I spoke to them. They didn't even try to hide their greed for that land." "Never mind that. After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The text in the article is presented as being from one person - Moshe Dayan. It is therefor presented in perfect proportion to the prominence of that viewpoint. Pantherskins removal of it here claiming "UNDUE", is therefor incorrect as that WP policy has no connection to this text. Also since its from a defense minister its hardly a "fringe claim" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

As the same article makes it clear this is what Moshe Dayan in an interview claimed, years after the war. It is not what historian have accepted, and in fact the article says that "Historians took a cautios approach". As such it is a fringe claim with no place in an overview article on Syria. Even worse the presentation - picking one of Moshe Dayans claims and not mentionig that historians are very sceptical of the factual accuracy - is partisan and disingenioung, suggesting that WP:NPOV was not on the mind of the original author. Pantherskin (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

That is nonsense. This quote is in plenty of sources. The source says "Historians have already begun to debate whether General Dayan was giving an accurate", not that they do not accept it or reject it or that it is a fringe claim. And a number of other sources have this same quote. nableezy - 15:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

So even you admit that there is zero consensus by historians and that these claims are highly dubious. Pantherskin (talk) 07:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I dont believe I said that, and I dont believe that matters. This is a significant POV that must be included per NPOV. Try reading that policy. nableezy - 13:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Hardly significant POV given the dubious and fringe nature of this statement. Has no place in this overview article which should cover only the most basic facts, and not some random quotes of dubious nature. Pantherskin (talk) 13:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Im sorry, but your opinion on what is or is not fringe does not really matter. Provide sources that dispute this and then we can talk, until that time you are simply repeatedly removing well sourced content. That is unacceptable. nableezy - 15:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Pantherskin, whether you like it or not, its a significant pov that has been "authenticated by historians and by General Dayan's daughter Yael Dayan, a member of Parliament" as the source says. And it is presented as from Dayan. And its not "dubious and fringe nature of this statement", that's your own personal pov about this. And your personal view that it "has no place in this overview article" has no consensus. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:54, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion obviously goes nowhere, so if you feel that it sould be included start an RFC and get input of uninvolved editors. For the meantime I have removed the content in question as it violates NPOV, which is a non-negotiable policy. Pantherskin (talk) 07:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

And the only thing that has been authenticated is that Dayan has made this statement. And as the article makes it clear historians doubt that this statement by Dayan is a representations of the facts. Pantherskin (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Except the material does not violate NPOV. In fact the removal of a significant POV is what violated NPOV. If there is a POV that you feel is not adequetly represented you should add that, with reliable sources of course. nableezy - 07:24, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Nope, it does because it ignores the super-majority view (using your language) that the border flare-ups where started by Syria OR by both Syria and Israel. Instead only the fringe view that Israel is the culprit is presented. Pantherskin (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Your claim of what the "super-majority view" is or that it "violates NPOV" is inaccurate and not based on reality and what the sources say. What a defense minister talks about is not a "fringe view". He is a defense minster, that alone is significant, but what Dayan talks about is also mentioned in: Robert G. Rabil (2003). Embattled neighbors: Syria, Israel, and Lebanon. Lynne Rienner Publishers. pp. 15-16, and is also mentioned by a former UN observer in the documentary "The Six-Day War Deceptions". You are continuing to remove sourced information from reliable sources while not bringing any source yourself. You have no support for you claim, you have nothing to back up your claims and you are continuing to edit war against the sources --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I brought an academic source that discusses Dayan's statement at length. If you have sources of good quality that express other opinions you are welcome to bring them too. Meanwhile, you have not provided adequate rationale for censoring this very famous interview. Btw, calling Moshe Dayan "fringe" is really silly. Zero^talk 08:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

@SD: this quote is deemed 'signifiant' by you since it makes a point in your stand that the poor Syrians were treacherously forced to go to war by these perfid settlers or what ever you want to stress -again victimization in the Arab narrative?- but anyway Dayan was a general not a self declared or a well recognized mind reader (maybe you have RS?), he only projected his own thinking onto the kibbutzim which know what they did and why and they rejected his claim, and it is as good as what anybody else can say (=not good) that's irrelevant to what really happened, your personnal likings cannot be given in wp as historical facts, bring in some historians which will confirm that Dayan was indeed a competent mind reader -and if they say he was a good one that would be even more valuable-, pending that his opinion although attested is just a lone individual's opinion then it is nothing more than a FRINGE opinion and I support it shouldn't be included in any wp article and be given UNDUE WEIGHT, Hope&Act3! (talk) 08:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

In the context of an overview article on Syria (not on Moshe Dayan, the Golan Height or Syrian-Israeli relations) the claims by Moshe Dayan (which are not famous by any account as most history books simply ignore this "famous" interview) are fringe and have no place in the article. Furthermore, most history books make it clear that at best both sides initiated border clashes, and not just Israel as this article tries to imply. As NPOV is non-negotiable policy I removed the section, again. If you want to advance the claim that Israel was the main culprit here, initiate an RFC and reach consensus for rewriting history on Wikipedia. Pantherskin (talk) 06:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Your opinion on what NPOV is does not give you the right to continually remove sourced information. If you feel this is a NPOV violation I suggest you try the NPOV noticeboard. You have now reverted three different users on multiple pages attempting to remove this information. nableezy - 06:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Three users with an extensive block history, past topic-bans in the subject area due to their partisan editing. What better proof that there is indeed an NPOV violation. Stop wasting my time. Pantherskin (talk) 07:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

One of those users is an admin, and I have never been blocked or topic-banned for "partisan editing". Edit-warring does not require breaking the 3RR as you may find out shortly. nableezy - 07:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Discussion here shows clearly no consensus to remove the Dayan text. Israels shelling and the text about the UN office is also sourced from a reliable source and was removed without bringing any new sources. Pantherskin is continuing to remove information he doesn't like. I gave him a reply above, and instead of answering me he started a section below with the same pov pushing he posted above, once again without bringing any sources. It is now clear Pantherskin wants to forcibly remove sourced information from the article he personally doesn't like. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't beleive that the whole quote above was ever included here. I am not against including cherry picked quotes per se, but am of the opinion that such quotes be mentioned on pages solely referring to the quote itelf, in this case, the '67 war (as that is what he said the quote in reference to) and possibly Dayan's own page. There is something worrying about reproducing this quote in, how many pages is it, 5? It's quite frankl ridiculous and speaks volumes about those pushing for its inclusion. It is not within the style of the section, as you will see in the whole history section there are no quotes, for doing so breaks the flow. The one from 2008 will in time also be merged into the text. The issue is not so much about whether this view represents a wider held view on part of the Israelis. Including infomation and context about the war here needs to be sourced from third party sources and as it includes controversial points, the text needs to provide both views of what promted the war. There is no way we an leave a one sided quote in the articel without a balancing view. So I am removing it pending an acceptable version to be posted here for approval. There are plenty of sources saying that Syria accused Israel of provocation, so lets use them. Chesdovi (talk) 23:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The entire quote is not in this article, only a small summary, the text has been discussed, and there is no consensus to remove it. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

No consensus is needed. As it is, that quote violates policy by giving a one-sided view of a controversial subject. Chesdovi (talk) 23:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Its not a quote, but a summary. Of course consensus is needed, people object to the summary's removal on good arguments. You want to ad the view of the Syrian defense minister to present the other side? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:57, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Sd, did you actually read my penultimate comment? Chesdovi (talk) 00:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have read all your comments here. Have you read mine and the people who object to the summary's removal? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:02, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Not thorougly, can u summerise them here? Chesdovi (talk) 00:10, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Several people object to its removal because there is no consensus to remove it. Its notable text from a notable person, no good reason has been given for its removal. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

So you did not read my comment then. Oh, its no use....Lets add every single thing ever said by a notable person about Syria. SD, you're first. Chesdovi (talk) 00:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

What sparked the six-day war?

I am shocked to see the fantastic debate in this section and I must say that this article's claim that "Israel launched a preemptive strike on Egypt to begin the June 1967 war" gives a false impression that Israel started the six-day war. We know what happened, there has been release of information since then and there have been competent accounts by NON-Israelis and NON-Arabs. As the wikipedia article on the six-day war shows: the Soviet Union sparked war in 1967 between Israel and the Arab states by falsely informing Syria and Egypt that Israel was massing troops on the Syrian border. This happened during the cold war when the Arab countries were "proxies" of the Soviet Union and Israel could be viewed as a "proxy" of the United States (though some like myself will deny that to be the case at that time - the six-day was actually a "hinge" in the relationship between the USA and Israel). In this game of proxy war, the Soviets wanted to inflict a defeat of the United States but they underestimated the Israelis and the whole plan backfired. Sorry but claiming the Israelis started the six-day war goes against the facts and known history.

Geography section

There was too many pictures in the geography section, so I removed this one [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:59, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Who are the Syrians (ethnic)?

First of all, Aram is equivalent to Syria; Syria is what the Greeks called Aram The Syrians are the Arameans themselves. It was the Arameans who were called Syrians.

Poseidonios from Apamea (ca. 135 BC - 51 BC), was a Greek Stoic philosopher, politician, astronomer, geographer, historian, and teacher. "The people we Greek call Syriacs, they call themselves Arameans".

(See J.G. Kidd, Posidonius (Cambridge Classical Texts and Commentaries, 1988), vol. 2, pt. 2, pp . 955-956)

Strabo (born 63 BC or 64 BC, died ca. 24 AD), a Greek historian, geographer and philosopher is mostly famous for his

"Poseidonius conjectures that the names of these nations also are akin; for, says he, the people whom we call Syriacs are by the Syriacs themselves called Arameans."

(The Geography of Strabo, translated by Horace Leonard Jones and published in Vol. I of the Loeb Classical Library edition, 1917, Book I, Chapt. 2, 34)

Flavius Josephus (c. 37 – c. 100 AD (or CE)) was a 1st century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 and later settled in Rome.

"Aram had the Arameans, which the Greeks called Syriacs."

(Antiquities of the Jews, translated by William Whiston in 1737, Book I, Chapt. 6)

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 275 – May 30, 339), was a bishop of Caesarea in Palestine and is often referred to as the father of

church history because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church.

"and from Aram the Arameans, which are also called Syriacs"

(Sebastian Brock, "Eusebius and Syriac Christianity," in Harold W. Attridge and Gohei Hata, eds., Eusebius, Christianity, and Judaism (Leiden 1992), p. 226)

Patriarch Aphrem Barsaum born on June 15, 1887, in Mossul [Iraq] and passed away on June 23, 1957 in Homs [Syria] devoted much of his time to writing and published many works. "The Syriac community was known from its beginning as the Aramean community"

http://www.aramaic-dem.org/English/History/Evidences_of_our_Aramean_origin/Evidences_of_our_Aramean_origin.htm http://www.goodnewsmedia.com/syria.htm http://kukis.org/Doctrines/Aram.htm http://www.historyofthedaughters.com/6.pdf http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/9-4-2005-76063.asp http://leb.net/~farras/aram.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.192.203.15 (talk) 17:24, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Actually all mentions of Syriac people in this article are consistent with what you've written. And I think the best place for your discussion would the article of Syriac people. -- Orionist ★ talk 15:35, 19 September 2010 (UTC)