Talk:Ypatingasis būrys

Einsatzgruppen? Sonderkommando?

Since they weren't prisoners themselves, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they were the Lithuanian equivalent of the Einsatzgruppen? Wilhelm Ritter 14:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

They were not equivalent, they were one of units of Einsatzgruppen (later SD, SS, directly commanded by German officers.--Lokyz 15:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

So the text should say there were Einsatzgruppen, not Sonderkommando.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to explain my mistake - Germans officially called this unit Sondercommando, see ref.--Lokyz 20:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you translate the relevant part of the ref?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Here you are: Pirmą kartą dokumentuose Vilniaus ypatingojo būrio vardas (vok. Sonderkommando) aptinkamas 1941 m. liepos 15 d. Dokumentuose kalbama apie šovinių išdavimą ypatingojo būrio reikmėms. English translation: "The first mention of the Vilnian YB by name (German - Sonderkommmando), was 1941 July 15th. The documents are related to the supply of ammunition to the YB". Translation end. As a sidenote, I think, this unit was officialy called Sonderkommando, and YB is just modern Lithuanian translation. Although I do not have any supporting reference for now . --Lokyz 21:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone out there interpret Ypatingasis Burys in a verbatim translation? Dr. Dan 21:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

How about this - Wykonawcami mordów byli żołnierze narodowości litewskiej z oddziału egzekucyjnego tzw. "Ypatingas burys"(Oddział Specjalny). Rekrutowali się oni przeważnie spośród członków paramilitarnej organizacji litewskiej "Lietuvos Sauliu Sajunga" (Związek Strzelców Litewskich). Organizatorem i komendantem tego znanego z niebywałych okrucieństw Sonderkommando, olicjalnie przydzielonego do gestapo, był Niemiec Martin Weiss.[1]--Lokyz 22:08, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Teraz rozumiem, "Oddział Specjalny". Dziękuje. Dr. Dan 23:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

In Polish often reffered to as szaulisi due to most of them being former members of Lietuvos Sauliu Sajunga. I am given to understand this is based on Lithuanian name for a rifleman (saulis, or similar, I am sure Lokyz can correct my likely erroneus spelling - no offence meant by my mistake).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Care to cite? Because often reffered is weaselising. As for Sauliu Sajunga - this organization was destroyed in 1940, after Lithuania was annexed by USSR, so "former members" would be better.--Lokyz 08:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Citations added.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Dubious

What do you mean by Lithuanian? Did Lithuania form those units? Were they subordinate to Lithuanian republic? Or were they subordinate to Third Reich and formed by Third Reich? Were they referred by higher commanding officers as an Ypatingasis būtys or rather Sonderkomando or Einsatzgruppen?. Just curious, no POV pushing.--Lokyz 20:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I assume it means that they were composed primarily of Lithuanians...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Umh, this is not new for me, although it should have some field number by Third Reich army, doesn't it? Simple questions, because form th article it seems, that not for a single moment this unit was under any upper command from Germans, and furthermore it seems that it was acting under his own will, like moving all around on their own will in occupied Lithuania (or to be exact Reichskommissariat Ostland).--Lokyz 21:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Certainly it was subrdinate to the Nazi command, but as I don't know administration stucture of Lithuanian territories under German occupation, I am afraid I cannot tell you how exactly was Yb or LSP or even LLD organized. There is, however, no doubt that it was a Lithuanian organization - in the same sense that Blue Police were Polish and Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst were Jewish. No POV pushing, just a widely accepted fact.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I will repat myself, from the article as it is now, it is not clear, that this organizatrion was under Nazi command - for a person who does not have any other information about it , this might be misleading.--Lokyz 09:50, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Szaulisi? Are you trying to tell that the whole Lithuanian Šaulių Sajunga was in YB? Before it was disbanded in 1940 Šaulių Sajunga had about 60 thousand members, and YB only 108. Another salad of half-heard facts and revanchist beliefs. Here's a good example of the abstract usage of the term [2]. s far I do underastand "szaulisi" is some mythological form of evil Lithuanians, in different contexts describing different units (be it YB, Sauguma, or else) in non academic and often very exagerated works, so, in my opinion, it could be misleading.--Lokyz 10:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Obviously it's the other way around: most members of YB came from LSS - that doesn't mean that most members of LSS became members of YB.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Really, although you have stated above that I'm afraid I can not tell you how exactly was YB or LSP or even LLD organized (sic), at least you are not afraid to tell us that most members came from the LSS. Heaven help us! Dr. Dan 19:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Poles and Russians in YB?

Recently M.K. claimed using this referece that YB consisted of 'Lithuanians, Poles and Russians'. It is the first time I heard that YB consisted of anybody else then Lithuanians and Germans - please provide the quotes and translation of the relevant part of the article to back up such claims. I find it interesting that the original creator of this article, User:Legionas, didn't find such claims in the article he used for primary reference.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This article states this Daugumą būrio narių sudarė lietuviai, tačiau buvo keletas rusų ir lenkų. And here is translation Most people in the unite were Lithuanians, although there were few Russians and Poles". Let me remind, that dr. Bubnys is much more of an expert on the matter than you are. His research is based on documents, rather than on Polish tygodniks. Have a good day.--Lokyz 15:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, it is not very suprising to find a few collaborators form other nationionalities in such organizations (from one perspective, it is likely that many YBs held a Polish citizenship during interwar period). It is certainly a minor but acceptable information in this article. It is certainly not ok to try to push a POV and argue that a 'few Russians and Poles' (a few usually reffering to <10) means that Ponary massacre was carried by 'Poles and Russians'.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup, the fact that out of 100 men (and later out of 40-50) there were 1/10th Poles and Russians is really non illustrative:>

And let me ask you, pushing POV that it was carried by "Lithuanian Police" is ok?--Lokyz 20:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a ref for 1/10? And all the refs call it a Lithuanian formation, inlcuing the short English summary of the Lit. ref which not suprisingly use the term 'Lithuanian security police' (hence the name of the article...).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it was your estimation "not more than 10".--Lokyz 20:22, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

When I questioned the percentage of Ukrainians in the Blue Police, I got blue in the face waiting for an answer. But at least, now "I get the picture". Dr. Dan 20:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope, Dan, you received your answer there, but as usual, you decided to ignore it. It's not a big surprise that you went on to brag about it here and there, but not in the place where the answer was given... //Halibutt 11:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Never said I didn't get the answer, just that I got "Blue in the Face" waiting for it. Besides, being too lazy myself, and lacking good libraries in Chicago I expected the percentages to be calculated for me. They never were. BTW, still waiting for plenty of answers from you (but in those cases I won't be holding my breath). Nice of you to pop in though. This wouldn't be a TF time without you. Dr. Dan 16:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the text [3], one Pole and two Polish-Lithuanians were arrested in Poland and convicted during the 1970-ties. Xx236 13:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Before going into the text, that Xx236 so graciously provided, it's noteworthy to point out that the text most definitely states that Vilnius (Vilna) is a Lithuanian city. It also distinguishes the unique historical and cultural aspects of Lithuanian Jewry. Both points are continually downplayed by the Polish participants of this current discussion or denied outright. So thank you for providing this additional refutation of that tiresome POV. Dr. Dan 14:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Dr Dan, how do you recognize if a city is Korean? I check the nationality of the local people and the state, in which it is situated. Wilno wasn't in Lithuania in 1941-1944 and the Lithaunians were a minority there. How can a text change basic facts? Don't you have any serious arguments to support your thesis? You may find even 1000 books calling Wilno Russian, will it change the population ratio in 1944?

What about the repatriation story? Were people born in the city repatriated? Xx236 09:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

A very interesting text, thank you. Let me cite just a few paragraphs:

Borkowski was born in 1916 near Vilnius and grew up and went to school in what was then Polish Wilno. In early August 1941, after the German occupation of Lithuania, he was fired from his job as a warehouseman because he did not speak Lithuanian. An ethnic Russian neighbor said that he could help him with a job, and together they went to the headquarters of the Ypatingas Burys. There Borkowski was asked a few questions in Russian by a Lithuanian officer, photographed for an identification card that bore Borkowski’s name in Lithuanian orthography as Jonas Barkauskas, and told to report for work the following day.

When questioned by Polish authorities about what had motivated him to spend more than two months as a killer assigned to the execution squad at Paneriai, Borkowski said that he had no reason to mourn the Jews since antisemitism had been “beaten into his head” when he served in the Polish border guards before the war and he believed that the Jews were “parasites.”

He not only shot; he also looted. From the belongings of the murdered Jews, he outfitted himself with a pair of knee-high boots and a pair of dark green trousers that, together with a Lithuanian Army shirt and cap, completed his makeshift uniform.

In terms of motivation, Borkowski brought together self-enrichment, a confessed antisemitism, and the accident of circumstances that led him to join the Sonderkommando. He and the two others received death sentences that were commuted to twenty years in prison.

--Lokyz 13:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The text proves, that the YB were, according to the Polish law, criminals.Xx236 15:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Lokyz, don't address your texts to me, even your thank you is offensive for me.

Dan, have you been ever gracious here? Xx236 14:45, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow, what a reaction "offensive", care to explain why? Becaus I've cited source provided by you? Interesting.

I never stated that I do find actions of YB acceptable. I did never say it is "good" organization or such. Without a slightest doubt those people were war criminals, although previously alleged "Lithuanian" subordination is now not overshadowing the true picture. These men were nazi collaborators, commanded by German officers. and teh article is much more NPOV'ed now.

And on the way to the true picture we did find out what Polish border guards were thinking about Jews. Quite interesting picture, don't you think? --Lokyz 16:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• Sigh. Read up on Hasty generalization. This kind of logic should be avoided.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not try any insinuations, these words are not mine and I do not suggest anything. Or is this the true picture? Although it is really interesting how many of those former border guards were acting in Vilnius region AK units?

Maybe that's why you so hastly did remove referenced nationalities of YB from Ponary massacre.Isn't it an act of denial? Somehow this move makes me doubt about your NPOV'ness on certain issues. --Lokyz 19:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Do we have any English language secondary sources on Ypatingasis būrys, or is it only limited to Polish and Lithuanian ? --Lysy^talk 09:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The current name is not very well used ([4]), but shaulists/szaulisi yelds a much better result ([5], [6]). I'd think this means the article should be renamed (shaulists, probably). But the problem is that this nickname is applied to both Ybs in specific and Lithuanian Riflemen's Union in general so I am not going to recommend a move just yet. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

dressed in mufti

What is mufti ? --Lysy^talk 10:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Since I like you, I won't ask you if you are too lazy to look in a dictionary, or suggest that you might not have decent libraries where you live. This was a recent "civil" admonition that I received from a colleague of yours.

Mufti, is civilian dress worn by someone who would typically wear a uniform. You'll find mention of it at the blue link mufti you've provided. Right up at the top. The little itty-bitty line in the top. You can find confirmation of this in most larger English dictionaries too. Yours, Dr. Dan 18:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I am lazy (and sometimes careless), and I do appreciate your patience with that. --Lysy^talk 18:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Lazy can be O.K., too. But don't worry, I have no intentions of having you blocked, or investigated for this or for any other sins that you may have committed. Dr. Dan 18:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

April 1944 was later than July 1944?

Should it be 1945? But Bydgoszcz wasn't under German occupation in April 1945.Xx236 13:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Subordinate to which German police?

Polish Wiki states it was subordinate to Sicherheitsdienst and Sicherheitspolizei. Would there be any objections to adding that? It should not be controversial (although references wouldn't hurt).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Polish wiki is not authority here. M.K. 13:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What about Bubnys? Could you translate for me the following paragraph: Nacių okupacijos laikotarpiu Lietuvoje funkcionavo gana griozdiškas policinis aparatas, kurį būtų galima suskirstyti į vokiečių ir lietuvių policiją. Svarbiausios vokiečių policijos rūšys buvo vokiečių saugumo policija ir saugumo tarnyba (Sicherheitspolizei und Sicherheitsdienst, (SD)) su centrine įstaiga Kaune bei skyriais Vilniuje, Šiauliuose, Panevėžyje ir Marijampolėje bei vokiečių viešoji (tvarkos) policija, kurią sudarė miestų policija (Schutzpolizei) Kaune bei Vilniuje ir apskričių žandarmerija. The following sentence may also be important: Paprastai šaudydavo vokiečių saugumo policijos ir SD ypatingasis būrys (Sonderkommando), kurį sudarė kelios dešimtys lietuvių, vadovaujamų gestapo pareigūnų. (and sentences following it). Anyway, I am sure that article contains answer which German organization(s) was YB subordinated to, and we should certainly add that.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Later, but none of these statements concurs your speculations and btw, when did Bubnys became a reliable source to you? M.K. 09:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I will be waiting then. When was Arūnas Bubnys not a reliabe source for me?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

We are still waiting for the promised translation.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Very rough translation: Formally police aparatus could be divided in German and Lithuanian. German consisted of German security police, security department (Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst, (SD)) etc. Lithuanian - public police, Lithuanian security and criminal police, train police etc.//Often aided in shootings German Security Police and SD Special Squad (Sonderkommando) included in it and Lithuanians placed under German Gestapo officers command. I do not know how translate several words, so need comprehensive voc., then will translate word by word. M.K. 14:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

McQueen and Poles in YB

Currently the article references Polish participation in YB to MacQueen works, however the proof is only the following citation: When questioned by Polish es about what had motivated him to spend more than two months as a killer assigned to the execution squad at Paneriai, Borkowski said that he had no reason to mourn the Jews since antisemitism had been “beaten into his head” when he served in the Polish border guards before the war and he believed that the Jews were “parasites.” McQueen also writes that In 1972 Polish authorities arrested three men (one purely Polish, the other two of mixed Polish-Lithuanian ethnicity) on charges that they had been members of the Special Detachment (Ypatingas Burys). At best if this is the only source, saying 'Poles' is a generalization - we have one Pole and two 'mixed' individuals.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Was the "mixed" ethnicity of these individuals that you are refering to comparable to that of Jozef Pilsudski or Bruno Abakanowicz? Hmm? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

YB in Lithuania

Were any YB members sentenced in Lithuania?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)