User talk:Tryptofish

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Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

Background: User talk:Tryptofish/Archive 25#Sad news

...the fish has come back! Thanks everyone who has wished me well!

It was difficult for me for a while, but I also decided to extend my Wiki-break a lot longer, beyond the point where I was arguably settled enough to come back. Partly, for a while I felt rather irritable, and I figured that I would be doing no one any favors by coming back only to have a short temper with the first editor to disagree with me. So now, I feel comfortably past that point. Also, I simply decided that some time away from this place would be a good idea. And it was. I've always believed that this strange website and the strange community that drives it can keep sputtering on, even without any individual editor. And behold: it's still here!

But I'm also going to need some time to get caught up, so please bear with me. And I've decided to try to make a few changes in my editing efforts, now that I'm back. I've decided that I was, in the past, too involved in "drama" and not involved enough in content creation in the topics that interest me. That means that, for now, I'm going to try (and probably fail!) to cut back on my involvement in other editors' disputes, outside of the mediation that I already committed to. It also means that, for all the editors who come to my talk page looking for me to help editing the pages that interest them (yes, EEng, I'm looking at you!), I'm going to be a bit less responsive, favoring instead those pages that interest me. So I hope that you will understand.

Thanks again! --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Looking forward to your bubbles. - The project is really unsafe, imagine me out of prison! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! (Bubble, bubble.) --Tryptofish (talk) 20:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Cognitive enhancement on the natch

Saw this posted on Hacker News and thought it would make a nice article. Any interest or ideas? Do we already have an article on this topic? Viriditas (talk) 19:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

We actually do have Nootropic. I regard this as one of those topics where the cautions at WP:MEDRS become important: much of this pharmacology is either experimental, bogus, or subject to significant caveats when used clinically, and so Wikipedia should not oversell it. Smart just doesn't come in a bottle. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello, my friend! Please take another look at the source. The phrase "on the natch" means "without drugs". The article is about non-nootropic cognitive enhancement. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 21:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Woops, I think this fish still hasn't quite gotten my editing sea-legs back again (mixed metaphor overload!). Sorry that I was kind of superficial and dismissive in my first reply. I'm just kind of tired today. I'll look again tomorrow, but working on a page on the subject probably won't be a high priority for me for some time. I'm hoping to focus for a while on some fish-related content, and I'll probably be going light on other topic areas for a while. But thanks for drawing it to my attention, and I truly will look at it more, um, intelligently tomorrow. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

No worries! I think that if I do write something, I'll just present you with a more organized thesis to critique. However, by all means, read it when you have time, as I would be very grateful to get some feedback on the review article, particularly from your own POV. Viriditas (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

OK, now I've actually read it properly, and applied the appropriate facepalm to myself. I have to admit, I had never heard of "on the natch" before, but I certainly should have looked at the source enough to have seen that it is plainly about "non pharmacological" methods. Oh well. So here is what I think. I pretty much agree with the authors of the source, in what they say in their "Conclusion and future research" section. As they say, stuff like physical exercise, sleep (Tryptofish: take the hint!), meditation and yoga, spirituality, music, and cognitive work with a properly trained health care professional, are all techniques that "are based on widely accepted traditional habits". Speaking personally, I have no reason to doubt that they can be good things, insofar as they go. For that matter, I could make a case that editing Wikipedia, if done thoughtfully, can be better than being a couch potato. I follow the primary literature on brain stimulation, and it can only be considered to be very early-stage as a research topic. It's nowhere near to being reliably useful as a general way of cognitive enhancement. So, that's my opinion of where it's at. We have a page on Cognitive remediation therapy, which deals with one aspect of the subject. A look at its talk page shows that it can be a topic where one shouldn't just add content subjectively, and what I said above about MEDRS really does come into play here. Likewise, for some of the "traditional habits", we have pages like Research on meditation. I have a feeling that creating a new page combining all the topics that are in that source could open up issues like being a POV-fork, so a case could be made instead for adding content to existing pages, and in some cases having a talk page discussion before adding it. But if you decide to pursue this, please do it with open eyes as regards the MEDRS issues that other editors will, appropriately, insist upon. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:39, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking another look. "Natch", a shortened form of "naturally", likely originates from mid-1940s African American slang. I'm only familiar with "natch' and "on the natch" through the works of American novelist Thomas Pynchon. I'll take a look at CRT. Viriditas (talk) 09:12, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good. As for "natch", I guess it just reconfirms that smart doesn't come in a bottle. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:36, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Christian terrorism page

Hello

Why is there a section on northern Ireland when the section itself makes it quite clear that the violence in northern Ireland was not 'Christian'?

You reverted the section being removed. I don't see why there is any need for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.111.168.151 (talk) 03:22, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello, and thank you for asking me about it on my talk page. The answer to your question is that it is not "quite clear". The content that you have now deleted for a second time contains reliable sourcing that three loyalist groups are indeed Christian terrorists. I also want to draw your attention to the notice that I am reproducing below, which you can click to make visible:

Please click to view.

Where it says my user name (because I put it here instead of at the Christian terrorism page), it actually applies to that section of the page that you have been deleting. What it means is that you did the wrong thing by "reverting" a second time, when you reverted my restoration of the section (a violation of what is called "1RR"). It's not enough to have contacted me here at my user talk page, although you are welcome to do that as well. You needed to get consensus from other editors before you made the edit that deleted the section that second time (and you won't get that consensus, although you may very well get consensus to write the material differently). My advice is to go to Talk:Christian terrorism, and continue your discussion with me there, not here. You need to understand that this is a very contentious editing topic, and that you will have to work with other editors instead of just deleting what you want to delete. OK? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Javert!

had to look that up, actually. you literary neuroscientist you. Jytdog (talk) 23:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I was too lazy to blue-link it. I wish you... peace! --Tryptofish (talk) 23:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

If you have any feedback on my COI work I would be happy to hear it, btw, here or via email - or not at all - as you prefer. Jytdog (talk) 21:20, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Great, I'll do that right here, and please feel free to point other editors with whom you are discussing it to what I am saying here. First, I see that our Javert page provides a ton of plot summary, but gives short shrift to the character's cultural significance: Javert is a prototype for someone who want to "do the right thing", but who becomes so single-mindedly zealous in pursuing those who might be in the wrong, that he becomes a seemingly evil pursuer. Now don't worry, I'm not calling you "evil", and all I said was that you should try to be less Javert-like.

Think of it this way: you got involved in COIN in the first place after that discussion we were both in, where some other editors wrongly accused you of having a COI about GMOs. Now, you've gotten so involved in COIN that the role is reversed: you are the one making the accusations. So my advice is to put yourself in the other editors' shoes (which is actually always good advice for any on-Wiki dispute). You know what it feels like to be accused, so keep it in mind when you are doing the accusing. We have a serious problem with COI editing, and it's good to have volunteers who keep an eye on it. But I would suggest being sensitive about what you say about who people are in real life, and being sensitive about not seeming too vengeful.

There are enough recent drama board threads about you that you are at risk of being tarred by innuendo: if there are that many editors complaining about him, he must be doing something wrong. I've said to you before that it's a mistake to take stuff personally, so please don't make it a personal matter to nail the COI violators. You are doing a good thing by asking around for advice, so good for you about that! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time. I have written about five responses to you. I am really unhappy with your characterizations here and I really struggle with them coming from you. "Nail the COI violators".... really - is that how you see my work on COI? Coming from you (who I trust enough to take things personally), that is really hard to read. Jytdog (talk) 23:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

But I do appreciate you taking the time. I will think on these things. Jytdog (talk) 23:56, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying to me here, and I'm happy to continue discussing it as much as you want. Keep this in perspective: I strongly defended you at RFAR, and I said there that your COIN work is excellent, and that Wikipedia is better for it. But this is a discussion in user talk, and you asked me for an honest critique, and I'm giving you honest advice. I certainly do not think that you would have wanted me just to praise you without any advice about how to address the issues that Risker and others are raising. Strictly speaking, I didn't say that you need to stop nailing people. I said that you should stop making it a personal matter. You should understand that it's not like I've been spending the last couple of months watching your COIN work. I'm actually taking into account what the editors who have been accusing you have been saying, and they sure perceive you that way. So I don't know everything about your COIN work, but I'm seeing what's going on now. And you really are in danger of getting tarred by innuendo, in ways that could lead to blocks or bans. And that's the last thing that I want to see happen, so I'm telling it to you like it is, so you can continue your excellent work without someone, well, nailing you!

From what you say, I'm glad that I didn't see the four replies to me that you decided not to leave here. But that right there should tell you something. I keep harping on the issue of you taking things personally. I think you will do best if you really make a habit of taking a deep breath, or a whole bunch of deep breaths, before responding when another editor disagrees with you. For what it's worth, compare the thread immediately above this one on my talk. An IP editor (who geolocates to Dublin, no less!) keeps blanking the NI section at the CT page, unaware of the 1RR restriction. That person blanked the section, and I reverted them (once!), and I subsequently spent a considerable amount of time fixing up that section, going through sources, and thinking hard about where I might be able to compromise with other editors. And then the IP came back and deleted the whole thing, including my own work, acting as if nothing had changed, and then left the message above, after deleting it all. Between you, me, and everyone else on Teh Internets who reads here, I'm pissed off. But I've never reverted it back, and I don't intend to. It's just gone from the page, and will likely stay gone until post-mediation. And you can judge for yourself: I think that, under the circumstances, I was pretty reasonable in replying to the IP just above. Because it's not personal. Wikipedia is just a website. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Thinking about it some more, let me get specific about one part of it. I have very strong negative feelings about what is referred to as "doxing". As a result, I think one has to be very careful about how one comments, on-Wiki, about who editors are in real life. And as Doc James just pointed out in your user talk, that makes COIN work difficult. As I looked at the RFAR, the filing editor seemed to show that you posted quite a bit about stuff you found outside Wikipedia (how another site had just changed what they said about somebody, etc. – something that, although it strengthens the case that there was COI, wasn't really necessary to meet the basic minimum of establishing probable COI). I'm not questioning that you did so in good faith, and please remember that my position there was that there was no case against you, and if anything, there was a boomerang. But per what I said above, about putting oneself in the other editor's shoes, I can see how they would have felt taken aback to see you posting that information on-Wiki. That would be the kind of thing that I would regard as potentially overzealous. So, you don't need to make the perfect case of COI, just enough of a case, and if the editor insists on arguing with you, maybe let other editors deal with it. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:47, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this even longer reply. I really appreciate it, Trytpo. I wasn't looking for ass-kissing from you :) but I was just surprised at the way you framed your criticism. I really don"t try to "nail" anybody - I try to teach people. (Paid editors and other editors with a COI can make great contributions and we can protect the integrity of WP, if they learn our policies and follow our process of making edit requests instead of directly editing. My goal is never to drive anyone away. That is what it made so difficult to hear. It would be like telling a teacher that they are out to nail students with failing grades. It is not the goal!)

I do understand about taking deep breaths, not reacting emotionally, and the importance of self-restraint - -that nothing here is personal. That is something you are a model of.

About doxing - I do acknowledge that what I posted about Atsme was in bad taste and not necessary. There were some reasons for it, but at the end of the day it was bad judgement. I screw up sometimes.

But please know that I am extremely careful about OUTING -- even as poor taste as my postings on the Atsme matter were in some places, they were not oversighted. I went further than I have ever gone toward "doxing" (and probably ever will go again) with Atsme and was aware I was going "out there."

Having lived through the many discussions about banning paid editing following the WIki-PR and Banc de Binary scandals, I am acutely aware of - and respect - the value the community places on anonymity and the fierce protection of that value, and I am aware of how this makes it very tricky to try to honor the strong concern in the community to protect WP's integrity from advocacy and COI. (I've laid out my thoughts on the tension between protecting privacy and protecting integrity in WP, and how to navigate through that tension, on my User page, if that is of interest to you) And I am also aware that a significant chunk of the community looks at dealing with COI at all, as deeply antithetical to the spirit of Wikipedia, which makes working on COI issues not only tricky, but dangerous. Hence my extreme care around OUTING. Anyway, I have heard everything you wrote, and again, I appreciate the time and thought you took to write it. I hope you can see where I am coming from a bit more now, too. Jytdog (talk) 02:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Am getting other feedback echoing the zealot/shrill thing. Which i have been at times. Having done that, am stuck with it. Jytdog (talk) 12:15, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I really am happy to help in whatever way that I can, and you can be certain that there are a lot of other editors for whom I would not have bothered to put this much thought into it. As I said before, I'm saying these things, not because I see you as a problem editor, but because I see you as one of the best editors I work with, and consequently I want to make sure that you don't get caught in any traps. I appreciate and respect the fact that you have sought out serious feedback, and that you are taking that feedback seriously. A lot of people wouldn't be capable of handling it, but you are amply capable. I've understood all along that it wasn't "the goal". It's a tricky thing about communicating online: one can have excellent intentions and yet have other people misread those intentions. And believe me, we all "screw up sometimes"! Just look at another thread on my talk where someone asked me about non-pharmacological ways of doing something and I replied in terms of pharmacological ways! It doesn't matter that one can make mistakes, because we all do because we're all human, but what matters is what one does to learn from the mistakes and improve. You aren't "stuck" with past mistakes unless you refuse to learn from them. What you are doing now, with thinking about feedback, is exactly the right thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:00, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I just read Risker's advice to you at ANI, where she talks about ways that COIN issues are not urgent, and about ways to deal with those issues in a gradual, incremental way, and I think that what she said to you about that is excellent advice. It's something that I hadn't thought of before, but it's a very good insight. Just because something isn't good for the project or isn't good for a particular page, doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be dealt with as an emergency. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes trying to take that go-slower approach on board and thinking through how to execute on that. Will mean lots more multitasking in practice. Thanks for that, and for your message above. Jytdog (talk) 17:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Flattered to get a mention on this page. Sometimes checkusers will stumble on a big nest of "socks" (I'm sure there's a better term, like "organized subversion group" or something like that since it usually involves more than one "master") and it's like creating a family tree, the branches can go in so many ways. But we normally do all of the checking first, because it helps us to identify the patterns, the nature and extent of activity, whether there are special issues that need to be considered or (in rare situations) whether or not the WMF need to be alerted/involved. This can take quite a while - sometimes even weeks. In the meantime, the community does what it normally does, and some of the articles will get deleted; we might catch a few newer socks on final checks; and we collect and document enough evidence for the wider range of eyes to determine what to do with the rest of the content. (There are usually articles on undoubtedly notable subjects in amongst the mess.) That wider vision really does make a difference; after looking at a hundred sock accounts, the natural tendency is to nuke every edit they made, whether or not COI, and whether or not the subject is notable. The broader group serves as the check. I hope this is helpful to Jytdog - or anyone else who is reading. And I hope that when next I make a call to the community to "check out" a bunch of articles/users/etc, there will be some who take up the call. Risker (talk) 18:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Winding up

Not to press, but if you'll give your assent to the resolutions of issues #A4, A5, A6a, and A7, plus the discussion at Talk:Phineas_Gage#Disposition_of_behavior_citations (which should be easy) then the only things left will be Talk:Phineas_Gage#And_another_thing.2C_dagnabbit.21 and Talk:Phineas_Gage#Notes. For both of those the ball's in your court, and I'm not sure you still care about them. After that we're done! EEng (talk) 01:04, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Maybe sometime in the future. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:06, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I said that last night after a tough day of editing disagreements, so I was more curt than I should have been. But please give me some time, a lot of time. (Obviously, what I said at what is now the top of my talk page, about intending to stay away from dramas for a while – I've been failing miserably at following my own advice!) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, you'll be happy to know that I think this should be drama-free. The items listed are action items you and I had worked out (mostly integrating notes into main text etc.), plus Mirokado's and my solution to the technical problem of citing sources from within notes. There's nothing left to do, but I want your imprimatur so no one can say due consideration wasn't given to you-know-who's nonsense, and I'd like to get this stuff off the discussion page.

The two threads that remain after that were your additional concerns about the quantity of notes. I'm hoping that with all the changes under the earlier threads, this won't be a concern any more. EEng (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2015 (UTC)