User talk:Jayjg/Archive 38

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Set Sail For The Seven Seas 329° 41' 15" NET 21:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Congregation Beth Jacob Ohev Sholom

— Rlevse • Talk • 00:03, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for telling me! Jayjg ^(talk) 00:36, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Competition

Only one question need be asked: "Is it good for Wikipedia"? :-) Daniel Case (talk) 23:03, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course it is! I'm so happy to see it. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:05, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it related to the ban?

I just noted M Price's comment that I was violating my ban. Honestly I hadn't thought of that. On reflection, an adversary might say there is a potential analogy with that Laqueur-Qur'anic issue we engaged in, which was borderline. My suggestion was that there there was a potential I/P reflex. Had I reflected on this perhaps I should not have added my note, which now only might embarrass you, though I appreciate any admin willing to act as a neutral mediator on an article, like this one, where no one appears capable of budging. I don't think, really, that a discussion of the scission and sects of early Judaism and Christianity, which is a purely historical crux, really enters into the I/P area, but if you think it best I stay out, despite the intensity of my earlier work on that article, I'll withdraw and raise no problems. John Carter did indeed ask me to look over the issue. Is that canvassing? Again, perhaps, but I really have no ideological horse in this race. To me it is like the Shakespeare Authorship Question, a matter of method vs.fringe speculation. I apologize if just wandering in there (if you are ready to believe me on this - I didn't know you were the mediator) upset any applecart, as Price's comment now seems to threaten. I don't have the time to seriously engage with the article anyway, so my presence and comments can be withdrawn without harm, if needed. Good luck with the mediation. Nishidani (talk) 18:55, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that Nishidani is in ban violation. I just said that, given his history, that this would make mediation more difficult. --Michael C. Price ^talk 19:35, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think Michael may not be the best person to question the involvement of others based on their histories. Having said that, he did and does seem to me to be someone who is well-informed on the subject, which is what we all need. I contacted the Judaism and Jewish history WikiProjects for input on this topic on that same basis. I would have contacted him at the same time as Ovadyah and the others involved at the time of the earlier Arbitration if the "retired" notice wasn't on the top of his user talk page. I can see how he might not have been included in the original request, and might be disqualified on that basis, but do not see how having someone who at the time of the earlier problems seemed knowledgable about the subject would necessarily be a problem. And, potentially, a more difficult mediation might possibly lead to a better article. However, it honestly is not my decision to make. John Carter (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry John, but I think I have caused Jayjg some embarrassment on this, and that in respect of his function as a mediator, I think the appropriate thing for me to do is to step aside and withdraw. I don't think there is any substance to Michael Price's insinuation. Some mediation is required, he was here before I, and I think it best for the mediation process, which will be difficult, to be relieved of anything even faintly suggestive of conflict. I tend not to look around but rush in, esp. when a colleague asks me to. I didn't check, and not checking, failed to foresee the inevitable wiki complications. This is ridiculous, but objectively I did the wrong thing in not thinking before participating.Nishidani (talk) 20:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

While Nishidani's involvement was obviously not a violation of the ban, I think we have both sides of this dispute well represented at the mediation right now. Thanks, Nishidani, for gracefully offering to withdraw; I think your reasoning is sound, and will take you up on your offer. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Mitch Walker

When the article Mitchell Walker was created it failed WP:Bio hence the request for deletion. The player now passes WP:Bio as he has appearred at a professional level. Also, the player is referred to as Mitch Walker by the club RM-Taylor (talk) 00:22, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed PSTS guideline

Jayjg, I've made a few changes to the "Quoting primary sources" section. Do these address some of your concerns? Current status here.

Yaris dropped me a note on my talk page about the proposal a couple of days ago; overall, I thought the draft looks useful. --JN466 03:18, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll take a look. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Congregation Beth Israel-Judea

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know! Jayjg ^(talk) 01:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Happy WikiBirthday!

Happy WikiBirthday!

Hi Jayjg! Happy WikiBirthday! It's not common that we see someone who has been on Wikipedia for 6 years. I didn't find a barnstar that specifically rewards great contributions over a very long period, so instead I present to you a cake! Cheers, —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:52, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! And I noticed on your User page that you'd completed 26 DYKs, but never gotten the award, so I've given you one. Congratulations! Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Thought you might be interested

See here. Cheers. IronDuke 23:58, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I've stayed strictly away from that topic area for more than a year, and I haven't been involved in any of the "each side trying to get the other banned" games. It appears that things have gotten much worse in my absence. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Temple Israel moves

Hey, you moved what i think was a valid list-article / set index article wp:SIA that was at "Temple Israel" inappropriately to "Temple Israel (Tulsa, Oklahoma)". At least you should have opened a discussion before a drastic change like that. And, if accepted and implemented it should have been done in a way that moved the edit history to a reasonable place. I am going to open a multiple-pages wp:RM to fix all back to way it was, i guess. Please comment in that discussion. Please consider using the Requested Move service to gauge appropriateness of any move that might possibly be contentious, in the future. --doncram (talk) 03:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hemant Karkare and anti-Israel Conspiracy Theories

I would like to bring attention to the article on Hemant Karkare, which is currently sufferring from a massive edit war, possibly by sock puppets (see my post here for the list) led by an anti-Israel editor named User:TwoHorned (He tried to POV-push in the India-Israel relations article before). The focus of the "edit-war" is over WP:FRINGE Conspiracy Theories concerning his death and the 2008 Mumbai attacks (in which a Chabad Lubavich center in Mumbai was destroyed by Pakistani Muslims). The edit-warriors keep inserting many bogus claims made by extremists, one of them is that Israeli-government has been fomenting religious riots in India (see this section of their version). Perhaps some intervention would prove constructive in this area. Thanks.117.194.197.61 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC).

sigh... Possibily infdef banned user Hkelkar is back again... Material is sourced and there is a discussion on the page. So please come discuss instead of blindly erasing. If you find material that contradicts the mentionned sources, bring it. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 09:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It looks like the people adding the material need to seriously review WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG, and WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:06, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if the added material is really fringe in India: there is one book published, articles about the subject, legal cases in preparation. Well, all of this must just be well presented, the pros and the cons. And I don't want sockpuppets or infdef banned used users to prevent any editing of the article. I'm a regular wikipedia user. Thanks. - TwoHorned _{User_talk:TwoHorned} 09:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The material is, without any doubt, conspiratorial nonsense, WP:FRINGE, WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE, etc. Please review those policies carefully. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Before any rash decisions are made, I should point out that it was User:TwoHorned who added the part about the Israelis fomenting religious riots in India [1][2](and then edit-warring in order to keep it in). the absurd and conspiratorial language suggests bad faith editing. Furthermore, some of his sources are highly dubious, like this one, from a pro-Islamist website masquerading as a non-partisan news source (compare what they say about Zakir Naik[3], to what more reliable sources say about him [4][5]).117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, here is a sample of the extremely conspiratorial rhetoric found in TwoHorned's "Flagship source", a book by an Islamist sympathizer titled "Who Killed Karkare?" Can a book containing this type of militant rhetoric be considered a WP:RS?

“ The allegation that sections of and individual Indian Muslims indulged in “terrorism” surfaced for the first time with the ascent of the Hindutva forces in mid-1990s and became state policy with the BJP’s coming to power at the Centre. With even “secular” media joining the role as stenographers of security agencies, this became an accepted fact so much so that common Indians and even many Muslims started believing in this false propaganda. ”

“ It comes out with some startling facts and analysis, the first of its kind, to expose the real actors behind the so-called “Islamic terrorism” in India whose greatest feat was to murder the Maharashtra ATS chief Hemant Karkare who dared to expose these forces and paid with his life for his courage and commitment to truth. While unearthing the conspiracy behind the murder of Karkare, this book takes a hard look at some of the major incidents attributed to “Islamic terrorism” in India and finds them baseless. ”

[6]

“ Terror's Hindu Face: Todays's ie, 18th May 2010's Asian Age's Delhi Edition devotes a full page to the hitherto well hidden from the public gaze and long suppressed by the media, Hindu Terrorism. ”

[7]

“ A new book curiously titled Who Killed Karkare? says a nationwide network of Hindutva terror that has its tentacles spread up to Nepal and Israel is out to destroy the India most Indians have known for ages and to remould it into some kind of Afghanistan under the Taliban. ”

[8].117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)