User talk:PaxEquilibrium/Archive1

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Hello PaxEquilibrium/Archive1, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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That's okay

From my talk page:

Hey, ahm, I am already an experience Wikipedia user (and I have contributed to several things myself). I have just forgoten my username (my shame :P) because I didn't write anything for too long. My past username was "Emperor". If a union between my current username and my past one is possible, I would gladly await it. Thank you for your nice welcome, though. HolyRomanEmperor 17:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, then I suppose I should say Welcome Back! You might just want to note the name change on your user page. You might say something like, "I used to edit under the name Emperor." Just a suggestion. I'm not sure if they can change it any other way, sorry. Maybe Joy can help you more than I can. Once again, welcome back. --Lord Voldemort ^{(Dark Mark)} 17:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Reply

I've not had a chance to read your entire reply, it's quite long. I'll get to it ASAP. --Joy [shallot] 14:23, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: reparation demands

Oh, I wasn't aware that this was a combination of problems in your case.

I have seen people (by and large Croats, but that's just a sampling error, nothing else) who were not able to get their tenant rights on state-owned apartments extended to ownership rights, it was a fairly common problem.

Having your things (ab)used by what is basically a squatter must be frustrating. Getting discriminated after asking to have the problem fixed is even more so.

I'm sorry if I sounded insensitive or rude, it wasn't my intention. I know that the government has record of some 1,400 houses still occupied by various non-owners, mostly Croats from Bosnia who were settled there with temporary housing papers and who weren't resettled, yet. I wrote about this problem in the article Demographics of Croatia, I'm all but unsympathetic to the issue.

Which reminds me... Perhaps we need an article History of Serbs in Croatia where we could integrate various information scattered around other articles. Or just Serbs in Croatia. --Joy [shallot] 16:28, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Let me hear yo out

I'll begin responding to your big comment here. I skimmed it several times up to now but it's really large and I needed to read it in detail before trying to answer it.

I'm not sure what you found wrong with the Sanja show. Maybe I didn't watch right episodes, but in those that I did, I never saw anything remotely related to propaganda. It's always been a purely fun show, no? They try talk about serious issues sometimes (civil matters like homosexuality and stuff) but it's usually very superficial, light-hearted.

About the Oluja show (emisija?), I don't really think that you need to waste your breath on that kind of programming. If I'm thinking of the right programme, that is. The one where the war veterans get interviewed and each of them shares whatever silly yet patriotic experience, and then the crowd is expected to "ooh" and "aah" after hearing them? I can assure you that a large portion of the viewers switch the channel at the very notion.

? O čemu pričaš ? Ako o emisiji na HRT u kojoj su gostovali Miljavac, Domazet i Štefanek-ona je odlična i puna podataka (imam ju na DVD-u). Mir Harven 17:51, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Nationalist demagoguery - it's horrible, but in normal times it's ignorable. A certain percentage of the population will always fall for it - Croats, Serbs, Americans, Arabs, ... you name it. It's a fact of life.

Footballers are also not among the brightest in the population. Sure, the press likes them, but more often than not they're just kids who were traditionally indoctrinated, both religiously and nationally, before they had a chance to develop their own brain sufficiently to realize that not everything is black and white.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'll briefly mention a counter-example - that Đurović fellow or what's-his-name, a basketballer from some KK Partizan I think - he has a visible tatoo of Draža Mihajlović on his arm. I mean, I can understand that someone is grateful to that guy for trying to preserve the monarchy and raise an uprising against the Nazi German occupation. However, they also have to understand that members of his group at one point thought it was a good idea to go about killing random other people because of their different national and religious affiliation.

It's not the Ustashe who dislike the Chetniks (although they did too, except occasionally when it was their common goal to fight the Partisans), it's just common people who heard about this crap. Just like it's not Chetniks who dislike the Ustashe (with the same disclaimer as before) because the common people also know what the latter did.

About the point number four, yes, that trend has fortunately subsided. It is indeed common for people to noticably avoid just saying "Hrvati" when they want to say "Croatians", and instead say "građani Hrvatske" because everyone knows that it's not right or fair to think that all citizens are Croats. The press calls this one of the processes of "de-Tuđmanizacija".

I'll get to the rest later.

BTW, is it perhaps strange for you that we're talking in English? I initially start all conversations on en: in English, but it's okay if you want to speak hrvatski, srpski, or any sort of a hybrid :), now that we've gone past the pages that the English speakers will need to understand fully.

--Joy [shallot] 17:03, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Dubrovnik, Duklja &co

If you want, I will give you a detailed mapped info about Dubrovnik and it's Serbia-Croatia relations.

Please do.

And what do you mean not mentioning Serbia before Stefan Nemanja??? It is a well-known fact that it was called Rascia (Raška) until the forming of Tsar Dušan the Great's Empire of Serbs, Arbanasses and Greeks, after which (although a feudal anarchic period until the Ottomans was in store) Serbia was the general name in use. And the union of Rascia and Bosnia (later inculding Zeta/Docleia and Zahumlje/Hum) is the concidered a first unified Serbia and that was even before Docleian Serbia.

See, this last part is where I can't agree. Docleian Serbia makes it sound like it was just a country of the Serb tribes, while there isn't much evidence to actually corroborate that.

And why do you not want to connect Duklja etc. with Serbia? Prince Petar Gonjiković (892.-917.), the ruler of Rascia, Docleia/Zeta, Travunia with Konavli, Hum and Paganija/Neretvia is generally concidered as the first known Serb leader/ruler. Then the Principality of Dalmatia, ruled by Princes Višeslav, Trpimir and Mucimir from 800.-910. and the Principality of Pannonia, ruled by Princes Ljudevit Posavski (819.-828.) and Braslav (880.-910.) cannot be concidered Croatian states? But everyone accepts these facts...

Well, apparently they're not known to everyone :) It would be good if you clarified the articles List of Serbian monarchs and House of Vlastimirović to state over which territories the medieval Serbian rulers ruled, and fill in the sources if possible. There's some talk of Časlav Klonimirović which apparently came later than Petar Gonjiković that you mention. Please fill in all those blanks. --Joy [shallot] 13:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

And you missed my notes of the history of Croatia articles being rather far too short. A reader would think that Croatia is a war-torn country that was created in a civil war (by un-orthodox means) with "some ancient lineage" Where are Tomislav, Krešimir, Zvonimir, Mihajlo Pupin's legacy, Nikola Tesla, Grgur Ninski, Josip Runjanin, etc...?

Hm, I think that all but one of those are all mentioned eventually. Did you click to see the articles marked Main article in each section? The link is at the top of each section.

I think Mihajlo Pupin's legacy isn't mentioned. Can you elaborate a bit?

A link to Montenegro and Serbia is still wanted, you know?

Where from? I missed this part.

--Joy [shallot] 22:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I would like the links to Montenegro and Serbia in the Croatia article, please.HolyRomanEmperor 13:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

They are prominently linked under the Geography heading, and the History section has two-click links to them via Dalmatia, Yugoslavia, etc. If you made a more concrete suggestion I'd be happy to comment on it... --Joy [shallot] 13:51, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mir Harven

Mir Harven is a Croatian nationalist, but he has scholarly knowledge and many of his opinions aren't entirely unfounded.

About the death toll in WWII - he has long been saying that the large round numbers given off the top of the head of various biased politicians immediately after the war are wrong. We know that most of them are indeed wrong today.

Republika Srpska has serious problems with legitimacy, because it is indeed formed on the basis of Serbian nationalism, and during its early days, its top politicians and soldiers were involved in widespread ethnic cleansing. And I don't mean that in the meaning of turning a blind eye to obvious crimes and supporting injustice like in the case of post-Storm Krajina - these charges are light in comparison.

The Serbs are probably the most geographically widespread people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They suffered horribly under the Ustasha regime in WWII, indeed, and they used to be the majority of the population. It's also not right that their opposition to the independence referendum failed.

However, it is also true that BiH is a profoundly multi-ethnic territory, where patches of land inhabited by different nations permeate almost everywhere. And Serbs are no longer in a majority, they are the second most numerous nation. And WWII was half a century ago. And they could have avoided a boycott and make a better case for their opposition.

However, they reacted by declaring their own independence and used the big brother (JNA) to help them carve out their own borders. I still remember footages taken by Arkan's supporters where they tracked his unit in Bijeljina where one of them split open a Muslim person's head with an axe. I mean, come on, any entity that allows this kind of action to be *filmed*, let alone committed, needs serious help. And of course to top it all off they thought it was acceptable to deport thousands from Srebrenica, and that it was a good idea to kill off all the men they could find, so as to mitigate the chance that they would procreate I guess.

You have to understand that there is much animosity towards Republika Srpska because of these circumstances. Had it just been the form of political organization of the Serbs in Bosnia, a cover organization for Serbian parties or some such, one that settled national issues in the parliament or in court, I doubt there would be so much opposition. But Republika Srpska was the buzzword of a large group of nationalist criminals who piggybacked on the valid rights and concerns of the Bosnian Serbs in order to attain more power than they ever would have in normal circumstances.

--Joy [shallot] 00:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

latest bit

I'm not being particularly polite - I'm just being normal :) I occasionally express my view with some amount of anger or indignation, but more often than not I take a breath before writing. It helps. :)

Perhaps Mir Harven is too troubled by some previous experiences and can't retain objectivity in all matters. Frankly, many of the contributors on Wikipedia have exhibited such symptoms (so to speak), and indeed some never managed to shed their preconceptions and make useful edits. He did, with some help, and a fair amount of his writing has been salvaged.

On the other hand, we often have problems in communication - especially when it's in a foreign language - some phrases don't come out as they would natively, they get interpreted as offensive, then there's a defensive reaction, and a quarrel. At times I've found it useful to try to reconstruct the English sentence from a Croatian or Serbian writer into how it would sound natively, and found that there might be many undertones lost in the translation. (This usually came after taking a deep breath... :)

The best thing to do is to keep having people communicate their actual thoughts to you (thoughts, rather than unarticulated sounds :), rather than trying to "battle out" issues with them. You may not end up understanding them fully or agreeing with them, but animosity will drain out in the process and you'll be able to gain some insight from the situation, if not from the information presented. --Joy [shallot] 13:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

...

I don't have an infinite amount of time to spend on Wikipedia every day, so please bear with me when you see that I don't immediately respond to a number of queries. --Joy [shallot] 14:40, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

?

What's your problem with life ? Facts ? Pose a rational question & we'll see. Mir Harven 17:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm

I don't think that I sound like an extreme nationalist, and I can't recall being warned about it ever. I have heard various people claiming that nationalism is a wrong thing, but I disagree with them. I have a complex view of SRS, seeing good and bad in them.

Oh, and try to pay no attention to Mir Harven. He's a known troll and, as the saying goes, don't feed the trolls. Nikola 08:23, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Krajišnik, a? :) No, I tend to be polite with everyone who deserves it. I didn't knew that you are a krajišnik till you told me. By the way, you need to fix that problem - which browser are you using? Nikola 09:08, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm here, but don't know what I could answer you. Mir is a problem, I know it for a long time, and Joy does support him. Not sure what are you asking me about? Nikola 12:28, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

That is typical. You are no doubt aware of immense anti-Serbian propaganda in Western media. As most of people, including admins, on Wikipedia live in the West, most do buy it, and so people like Mir, Dado or Kosovar can get away with any kind of crap while edits deemed pro-Serbian are often supressed. If you wish to pursue this, I'd suggest that you find (Google is your friend) a source which confirms that the people were released (a newspaper article is fine) and edit the article while linking to the source. Don't be afraid to revert back if someone reverts that without justification. By the way, why not writing a complete article on Varivode? Nikola 14:39, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, you've convinced me, and Mir likely knew it already... Nikola 15:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Throw your look at [1] and [2]. Nikola 07:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I think that Ivo's mother was Serb, but can't find a reference. About Skenderbeg, see [3] and [4]. No, I don't intend to ever set a foot in Croatian Wikipedia, which I'd advise to you too. Let their idiocy show in its full glory. Nikola 20:40, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: the Serb Orthodox Cathedral Church of Saint Nicholas in Karlovac

I didn't know anything about it until recently. I had edited the Serb Orthodox Church article here to fix some tendentious writing, and noticed the see of the Eparchy of Karlovac on the list of SOC buildings that were torn down during the war.

I later saw some anonymously-compiled video footage on a talk show on Nova TV, and one of the scenes showed its patriarch blessing the RSK troops and spouting some typical national-religious mumbo jumbo - I suppose that this was the direct motive for the Croatian lookalikes of his audience to destroy his cathedral.

BTW I recently also read in Feral Tribune about semi-public executions of Serbian POWs in September 1991 in Karlovac by at least three members of the Ministry of the Interior. I recalled what you told me... sigh.

I'll get to the other comments, too, I merely lost track temporarily... --Joy [shallot] 19:25, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Let me hear yo out, part two

Continuing where I left off - point number five onwards.

I don't think you should be reading too much into the "Jelena" announcements. Not every American TV show is announced as "američka TV serija" or similar - the TV networks concentrate more on the content, or rather the key selling points, they say if it's a soap opera, telenovela, sci-fi, forensic, etc, the country of origin is often ignored. All Croatian TV stations nowadays tend to show the old Yugoslav programming occasionally, it's not very rare. Granted, this new Serbian telenovela(?) is a new thing, but other than that it seems fairly standard. It slightly reminds me of "Villa Maria", but that's probably from the same lighting, I don't actually know anything about the content :)

Where did you see that Josip Runjanin is considered Orthodox Croat? I don't recall seeing that. I did notice that his name is regularly morphed to end in -p and that his nationality is rarely mentioned, but that is somewhat expected. It's also rarely mentioned that Dimitrija Demetar was apparently a Macedonian. I'm not sure if Petar Preradović was a Croat, either. However, if you ask anyone with more than basic education to tell you if Croatia needs to kill off any mention of famous people who aren't Croats, you're unlikely to get less than 95% negative answers. Zlatarovo zlato is not less golden because its author was originally Schönoa, that's plain common sense.

I had no idea that the Bond template was a Serb :)) It's probably a common triviality in Serbia? Like the cravat being Croat here, I suppose.

I've already told you what I know with reference to point number seven &co. Šeks is widely ridiculed for his drinking addiction alone, and the leftist part of the public sees him as one of the primary remnants of the "old" HDZ. I can't say I've seen anyone with a grin on their face when he was made the president of the parliament. Similarly for Đapić.

The mayoress of Knin is basically a joke. I guess they put her there to put a pretty face on a really grim town. Everyone knows that the Dalmatian hinterland was never a particularly prosperous place, war or not, and she keeps ranting about how everything is becoming peachy. It's just transparent.

I don't really understand police control of the ultras, but it's a common thing to kill off any attempt of the visiting team's fans to do anything. When Torcida comes to Zagreb, the police lets them keep their scarves but removes anything more than that - if they piss off the Bad Blue Boys, all hell can break loose, and I guess it's much cheaper for the police to shut them down preemptively than to deal with thousands of rioters. Perhaps the Delije are treated even more harshly, and the reaction among the local ultras is more inane, but that's how things are in football.

I really doubt that either country will get any reparations. And I agree that it's wrong to compensate SCG - instead, the Croatian Serbs need to be compensated. You probably know that the Zec family children who survived their three siblings settled their lawsuit, and the process is going on, several others reached a settlement too. It's probably too late, too small, but hey, at least it's something.

I've no idea who this Jureško-Keto person is, I never heard of her. Hopefully nobody else did :))

You also shouldn't give too much negative weight to statements about SCG breaking up (that's "water polo"). It's long been known that Serbia and Montenegro are at odds in many issues, and in Croatia, like in other former Yugoslav republics, it will always inherently seem to some people that Serbia is strongarming Montenegro if they stick together, because it's like a smaller brother of hers.

It is indicative that crimes and terrorising happens in backward, hinterland areas. Any wiseass can get a hold of a weapon and target anyone, and the local police is composed of similar types, so the law enforcement system doesn't work. It doesn't help to have HDZ in power in Zagreb, so they basically don't do anything about it.

--Joy [shallot] 20:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Lynched in Zagreb? Who? --Joy [shallot]

Re: Let me hear yo out, part three

Continuing from point 24...

Yeah, I've also seen some complaints about expedited trials with no real evidence. Any legal system will have innocent people fall through the cracks - let alone a system without a system, such that our judiciary has been for the last two decades.

Also, it's also fairly typical to hear Croatian people recognize former RSK head honchos living freely out of sight in their home village, and wailing at the situation. The irony is that in case of a certain type of people, nationality or any similar issue is entirely peripheral - they will do just about anything to get by, and usually succeed; on the other hand, some people will get in trouble just for being in the wrong place in the wrong time.

The point 25 is about a concept called victor's justice in English.

I've no idea who Jasmina Popović is, either. That statement you quoted sounds like a typical journalistic generalization - there are some who committed atrocities but not everyone. But hey, let's just consider everyone who's not back a runaway criminal and avoid having a guilty conscience. Self-deception is like a drug.

Woah, I'm done with the list... :) --Joy [shallot] 21:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mir Harven, part two

Replying to the text starting with "Croatia is nothing but a fascistic and nationalistic state ..." and ending with "Mir Harven mk II" - what is this? I don't understand where you got this. --Joy [shallot] 21:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Ahh, a parody. That explains it. --Joy [shallot]

I've looked at User talk:Mir Harven for the reference to the village of Varivode, and apparently he doesn't have complete information, but he did not dispute you on that, he just pointed you to the RSK page. That's either an attempt at the explanation why the legal system didn't work, or a misunderstanding.

Anyway, I don't think individual bickering will help anything. Wikipedia should simply present the available information about the Operation "Storm" aftermath. I've re-checked the Veritas web site now and it appears to be less graphically biased than before. They also seem to update their data, which can be included (with references). --Joy [shallot] 17:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

You need to put much of those comments in context. He obviously reacts rather coarsely, but at the same time most of his knee-jerk reactions, and I recall particularly that one where he said "Serbian sickos", were against anonymouses who were littering Wikipedia with fairly incoherent pan-Serbian junk. And you know how people tend to generalize - it's common to decry "ustaše", "četnici", "Hrvati", "Srbi", any pretty much any other group, because of actions of what are usually just individuals.

The comparison between Vojislav Šešelj and Mir Harven is amusing :) but there is a significant difference in that Mir Harven didn't cause anyone to take up arms... at least I hope! --Joy [shallot] 18:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think he's really continuing to defend anyone (there were no further comments), but then, I can't help it even if he is. --Joy [shallot]

sacral marking

I wouldn't call it "sacral"... at least for the majority. Perhaps it's strange for outsiders, especially someone who was sympathising with Krajina, to realize why there is such a positive attitude toward it, but for Croatia this was the operation that finally clinched the war and secured its independence. That's a pretty big deal, it's normal for the nation to appreciate it. The crimes do not override that. --Joy [shallot] 18:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I never heard that thing about seven-headed monster. That was Kuharić or Bozanić? Both of them seem too... frail :) to use such language, but I guess I can see it being said. The Martić-Mladić-&co. grouping was often seen as a criminal alliance whose only purpose was expansionism and harming Croatia, so allegorical references to monsters were to be expected among the more mythologically inclined, I'm afraid. --Joy [shallot] 18:55, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

It occurs to me that you may have meant sacral in the literal manner - marking by the Church. Yeah, I don't see much point in that either, but I see where they're coming from. There's a bunch of clergy on Bleiburg massacre remembrance events, too. The Church must feel that it's its duty to preserve memory of events of national importance, although the definition of such events extends only insofar as it suits them. You probably won't see them marking a ceremony of the building of major factories that happened during the Communism ;) --Joy [shallot] 18:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, I was imprecise with that statement, sorry if it offended you. I didn't necessarily mean sympathising with the Krajina rulers and methods, only the sympathising with the rights of the Serbs in Croatia, esp. the right to find one's own way of staying alive, whatever that meant at the time. I got that impression from your writing - I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

And outsider is also simply meant someone who has not been under the treatment of the Croatian press over the last fifteen years. You should consider yourself lucky to be such an outsider, honestly :) --Joy [shallot] 19:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Please

Please, people, this is a civilized talk page, do not post insultive posts here. HolyRomanEmperor 21:34, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Zvezda-Inter; Pagania/Neretvia

About the football match, I referred to that when I talked about the police control of the ultras. I don't think vandalism warrants any further comment - the police needs to put an end to it, and it does so increasingly well, although it's still lacking. About the Jajčinović fellow, again, I've no idea who that person is. You should confront him about his statements, not me :) Try to take a step back and consider that not all of the male population are idiots :)

I clicked the anarheologija.org link now, it works. I quickly read the text, it explains factoids mostly already known to me, although it adds the Serbian slant on it. I don't think this is any more valid than adding a Croatian slant on it. It's rather silly to try to claim them all as Croats or as Serbs when they were for a long time minding their own business - separately from both the Croatian and Serbian states in the neighbourhood. It's impossible to consider them integral to either of the two large nations when they clearly did not conform to the same standards.

And yet, they were also early Slavs and weren't particularly different from their neighbours - just like the neighbours themselves weren't particularly different - I can't honestly say that there was any rivalry between the Croats and the Serbs in this period - there existed differences that distinguished one from the other, but they had no real differences that they had to resolve. The buffer states such as Narenta and later the Bosnian state, who found a way to prosper from such a middle ground, benefitted both the westerners and the easterners, each of which had much more to gain from fighting with external enemies than with other Slavic tribes.

It's apparent that this Marko Aleksić is biased - he's consistently calling them Serbs and their land Krajina. Given the times we live in, this is needlessly pretentious.

--Joy [shallot] 10:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

hercegbosna.org

I can't say that I haven't seen biased stuff on the site, but it's got plenty of references so it's a decent source for research. Mir Harven is one of the editors, as you may have imagined already :)

The bit about Karadžić is a matter of interpretation. Consider that nations here are defined by several issues that are perceived to be major: ethnic origin, religion, and language. If you take any of those three and assign it to another nation, it's bound to piss people off.

Having said that, while the explanation of dialect origin seems plausible, I've never seen actual proof that the kaj is something inherently only Slovene, or that the što is something inherently only Serbian. I don't see how it's possible to have all the literate and educated Croats throughout history, suddenly promote a non-native language as their mother tongue. They simply weren't all čakavci, and they weren't all non-Croats masquerading as Croats.

--Joy [shallot] 11:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

About the original što/ča speaker - frankly, I've no idea. I don't even recall if our tribes had this distinction when they arrived in the south or if they still spoke the so-called Common Slavonic at the time. --Joy [shallot] 16:55, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

sympathising

By the way, why did you ever call me a "sympathizer"?

Again, I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way. I'm not trying to use it in a tendentious manner. --Joy [shallot] 11:11, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Re: Re: Let me hear yo out

(Sorry for the silly heading for this :)

I was under the impression that the people from diaspora who returned to Croatia would not go to the countryside, exactly because it's so backward nowadays. I don't recall those fourteen exactly, but it sounds like you said it sarcastically - that was the effect, I think there were no more than a few tens of thousands of returnees like that.

I missed the bit about "wonderful Croatian morning" :)) That's about as silly as Put singing "my Croatian sky" at the end of the song. It was really pathetic.

Fortunately, I've not seen anyone with a Pavelić tattoo in the media, or elsewhere. The Chetniks have a bad reputation in these regions because of two WWII things - an incident in Foča where they mass murdered and raped Muslims, and the opposition to the Partisans, notably killing Ivan Goran Kovačić or Marko Orešković.

You don't have to go into Bosnia (Foča) to find a Chetnik crimes against civilians - in Croatia, e.g., are known crimes in Poljica area (just E of Split), in villages under mountain Kamešnica (E of Sinj), in areas near Vrgorac...Kubura 06:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't think you should read too much into the prefix "Croatian". It serves a nationalist purpose for some parties, but it's also toponymical - it says that the party encompasses the entire country. The SDP also has it in the form of a suffix, their full name is SDP Hrvatske.

And I'd like to remind you that HSP has not become a "major" party, nor has it become a notable party during the time it was espousing far-right views. Its recent "surge" in "popularity" is more due to the fact that mainstream voters - don't vote! They still have a support in the range of 5% of active population, it's just that their population tends to vote and not sit at home.

The fact that Stipe Mesić is the president is the trivial proof of this - they absolutely hate him, but he manages to get his supporters to get out and vote for him, and he wins with a supermajority.

I agree with the parallels HDZ-SPS and HSP-SRS, although the situation is a bit worse when it comes to right-wing turnout in Serbia - more of the rightist voting body appears to have switched to SRS, whereas in Croatia more of it stayed with HDZ rather than switch to HSP. It's also positive that HDZ has shed some of its rightists - Tuđman and Šušak are dead, Pašalić and Glavaš formed their own parties, only Hebrang and Šeks remain as those that aren't considered moderate. However, Sanader appears to keep a tight order in the party and uses it for profit - sure, we all know that it's "embezzlement without borders" :) but at least they're not blowing the old nationalist horn every day all day.

I'm not sure why you think that "hrvatski ustaski pokret" is very powerful and influential. Who was that who compared Jasenovac with the play?!

I didn't actually say anything about 100,000 or any other number in Talk:Croatia, as Shallot or as Joy - I merely pointed the anonymous user to the right talk page. The first level of indentation is one person, the second is me. I'll go make that clearer.

--Joy [shallot] 12:33, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: This info

You should add the full text in the article Eparchy of upper Karlovac, and then link that from Karlovac. The Eparchy is linked from Serbian Orthodox Church already so this would consolidate one more red link. --Joy [shallot] 17:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

It would help if you wouldn't copy and paste information about Eparchy of upper Karlovac from SPC web site. --Joy [shallot] 13:05, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Proscriptions required

Yes, there are many people who try to abuse Wikipedia as their personal soapbox. If you notice something that you think I could help you with, please feel free to tell me and I'll help out.

I have maintained a constant struggle :) to keep History of Dalmatia (which was previously Dalmatia#History) free of opinions, although it was always fluctuating. Recently I corrected many of Kubura's one-sided edits - he has a bunch of information but it needs to be proofread to avoid subtle and less subtle pieces of propaganda. Luckily, he can be reasoned with and my current version pretty much stands (i.e. there's no reverting going on). Please read it further and we'll work on it. --Joy [shallot] 17:09, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Hej

Mislim da bi to trebalo provjeriti. Za Istru je lako zaključiti da je talijanski službeni (official) zato što se koristi za cijelu županiju; ovo što je na razini općina ili pak samo pojedinačnih naselja nisam siguran da se može uključiti u infobox. U biti bi mogli staviti fusnotu.

Ispravio sam list of state mottos tako da nema Boga i Hrvata tamo, to je jednostavno bilo krivo. Svakakve su ljudi dosad stvari dodavali u to polje, ali službenog mota jednostavno nema.

Srijedit? :) Srediti je i u hrvatskom :) Maknuo sam copyvio dio iz članka, sad je pristojan mali stub. Ako stignem prenijet ću i još informacija.

BTW, jučer dok sam hodao Draškovićevom ulicom vidio sam natpis nekakvog starog obrta ili nešto slično, čiji je vlasnik Predrag Đurić. Danas sam na televiziji vidio profesora koji se zove Vuk Tvrtko Opačić. :) --Joy [shallot] 17:28, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Ah, rekao si konkretno za Dalj... dobro, ima ta priča i drugu stranu. Citat s googlea (iz "24 sata", vidi [5]) - Riječ je o Srbima koji su djeci u školi prodavali Arkanove bedževe i bili aktivni članovi Šešeljeve Radikalne stranke. Oni su 1997. jasno rekli da ne žele predavati ustaškoj djeci i sprdali su se s našim jezikom, a sada kada im nedostaje satnice za punu plaću, zbog njih su iz škole otjerani uzorni hrvatski nastavnici.

Ipak, pravu potvrdu da to nije samo hrpa blesavih roditelja mi daje ostatak članka, pogotovo na kraju kad kaže Naš pravoslavni pop mi je prijetio da nam neće posvetit kuću niti krstit dijete jer smo suglasni s Hrvatima, ali je nama dosta toga da s nama upravljaju drugi - kaže uplašeni srpski roditelj. To ti pokazuje da se ljudi ne dijele na Srbe i Hrvate, nego na budale i na one koji to nisu. A dovoljno je svega par budala da zakuha, i odmah svi na noge skaču. Da iz te priče isključiš samo par ljudi s jedne i s druge strane, ne bi priče nikad ni postalo.

Inače, općenito, nije Dalj jedino mjesto koje ima dvojezične natpise (izvan Istre), tako je sigurno i u Trpinji, Boboti, i drugim srpskim selima, nije to ništa čudno. I kad ideš u Laslovo i Ernestinovo vidiš natpis na mađarskom, jer su to mađarska sela. Ipak, status službenog jezika se više povezuje sa službenom upotrebom što se tiče ljudi - vjerojatno da uđeš u općinski sud u Osijeku ili u neku drugu javnu ustanovu, i počneš pričati bilo srpski bilo mađarski, samo bi te čudno pogledali i rekli "the translator is --> thattaway -->" :)

To sa Dukljom je već odavno konfuzno. Problem je u tome što je famozni Pop Dukljanin bio iz Bara, a ne iz tog naselja kod Podgorice. Ne znam je li to naselje u to doba uopće bilo naseljeno. Anyway, napisao sam to u članku sada, valja će biti jasnije.

Hvala što si editirao i Pagania - dobro si me natjerao da dopišem svašta unutra :) Bilo bi dobro ako bi uspjeli iskopati i pokoje ime srpskih knezova koji su ih kontrolirali.

--Joy [shallot] 22:21, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Inače, shvaćam te u potpunosti što se tiče asimilacije. To je u biti normalna stvar. Hrpa ljudi iz miješanih brakova koji nisu htjeli probleme su ili emigrirali, ili se priklonili nekoj naciji, u biti odmah. Kontraprimjer koji je u Hrvatskoj popularan iz dnevnopolitičkih svrha, su Bunjevci u Vojvodini - kako je za vrijeme Šešelja bilo nepopularno povezivati se s Hrvatskom, niti bi se netko tko je u biti tamo domaći nužno i htio povezivati s drugom državom, dosta ljudi se nacionalno izjasnilo kao Bunjevci, Srbi, Mađari, i slično. Za one koji rijetko idu u crkvu ionako nije previše očito da su katolici, pa im je to osiguralo malo mira za slučaj da im neka budala dođe brojat krvna zrnca. I ne možeš im zamjeriti, nikako. --Joy [shallot] 22:29, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Da te pozovem...

Da nam se pridruzis i na srpskoj Vikipediji. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 17:17, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Re: Re: Hej

Gdje smo ono stali... :)

Miloš ti je napisao što je poznato i relevantno o Boškoviću te o Andriću, ali mogu ponoviti svojim riječima ako inzistiraš.

Za Ruđera Boškovića je najtočnije reći da je bio u svakom pogledu - Dubrovčanin, jer se nije deklarirao kao Srbin ni Hrvat, nego je bio građanin i djelovao je za dobrobit Dubrovačke Republike. Otac mu se morao odreći pravoslavlja prije ženidbe za ženu romanskog porijekla, i umro je kad je R. B.-u bilo samo deset godina, tako da je to stvarno hvatanje za slamke. Revertirao sam ti promjenu tamo u tom članku gdje si nadodao "od 1939.-e" u vezi integracije u hrvatski milje - nevezano za merits of the same statement, takvo je stajalište bazirano na premisi da je integracija puno dugotrajnija od tog datuma. Tojest - kao enciklopedija prezentiramo i jedno i drugo stajalište takvo kakvo je, ne dajući mišljenje i o ijednome.

Ivo Andrić je očito bio prilično naklonjen svojim zapadnijim korijenima u ranijim danima (nije slučajno objavio nešto u hrvatskoj mladoj lirici), a kasnije se jasno očitova prema istočnijima (radio je za Kraljevinu Jugoslaviju u Beogradu, izjašnjavao se kao Srbin ako se dobro sjećam). Mislim da tu nema nikakve veće kontroverze, iako je dosta teksta u tom konkretnom članku podložno izmjeni jer ima više izražavanja mišljenja (literarna kritika).

U vezi jezika - koliko god je jezika priznato na lokalnom nivou, svejedno je srpski dominantan, kao što je u hrvatskoj hrvatski. AP Vojvodina iskače iz priče time što forsira sedam jezika u svim pokrajinskim uredima, svakako.

Rado bih dodao link na taj članak u Pagania, ali ne volim linkati članke koji nisu na engleskom iz engleske Wikipedije (npr. dosta hrvatskih gradova i sl. nisam polinkao službene stranice jer su samo na hrvatskom), budući da engleskim govornicima takvi linkovi općenito nisu uopće korisni.

Mislim da bi trebalo. Ako postoji strana na engleskom, svakako treba uvezati nju, ali ako ne postoji treba dati makar sta, posebno ako je zvanicna. U stvari, mislim da ukoliko postoji zvanicna stranica necega, ona bi uvek morala biti uvezana, bez obzira na jezik (naravno uz napomenu na kom je jeziku). Nikola 00:29, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Mislim da si dodao objašnjenje za Gojnikovića i Klonimirovića u članak, nisam ništa dirao...

Slažem se s tvojim opisom da se izraz "Srbija" treba koristiti za Nemanjinu državu nadalje, jer se prije toga nisu Srbi jednostavno nisu bili organizirali u jaku i trajnu srpsku državu koju bi mogli zvati Srbijom. Ni hrvatske kneževine prije Tomislava ne možemo nazivati "Hrvatskom", pogotovo zato što su podaci iz tog ranog perioda još rjeđi (u biti se ne zna dokle je sve sezala panonska kneževina u smjeru sjevera i istoka, makar ja ne vidim nikakve pouzdane informacije o tome). Da ne pričamo uopće o samim elementima državnosti koji su u srednjem vijeku bili patetični u usporedbi s kasnijima. Svakako da su obje grupe kneževina bile svojevrstan uvod u stvaranje pravih država, ali s obzirom koliko je taj "uvod" bio dugačak (makar tri stoljeća za Hrvate, preko pet za Srbe), ne može ga se ignorirati. Nadam se da se takav dojam dobija i iz mog opisa u članku medieval Croatian state gdje sam više odjeljaka posvetio ranijem periodu nego kasnijem (ako se dobro sjećam).

Argumenti o autentičnosti iskaza Konstantina i Grgura su jednako klimavi, IMHO. Pop priča o tim nekim Hrvatima koji ga okružuju, ali je očito katolik i teži uključiti sve u svoje "stado", jelte; Car priča o tim nekim Srbima koji su na najzapadnijoj margini njegovog carstva, a očito nije siguran u to sve kada prenosi obje priče svojih kroničara umjesto da iznese samo jednu.

Navodno da je nešto sumnjivo u krunidbi Mihajla, to sam vidio iz prethodnih edita u relevantnim člancima. Ima li negdje u vatikanskim knjižnicama zapis o tome? Mislim da je to bio kamen spoticanja - ako mu je papa poslao bulu, onda je negdje trebala ostati neka črčka negdje o tome.

Da i ja dodam još jedan detalj u vezi prijatelja - jedan od mojih dobrih kolega na faksu se zove - Kosta. 'nuff said :)

--Joy [shallot] 18:19, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Latinica

E, ide li u Srbiji negdje syndicated Latinica? Neki dan su imali dobru emisiju o primitivizmu, mislim da bi ti se svidjela... --Joy [shallot] 18:24, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

User talk:Albanau

Hello! The warning on User talk:Albanau was not for you, it was for User:Albanau. This rabid Albanian nationalist operates the sock puppets User:L'Houngan and sv:Användare:Albanau, sv:Användare:L'Houngan, sv:Användare:Piana and sv:Användare:Arnauti on Swedish Wikipedia. He has been banned indefinitely on sv: wiki, but he repeatedly violates this ban by creating new sock puppets.

Best regards! Probert 11:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Against Albano-FYROMian nationalism

The ignorant Albanian nationalist that goes under the ID User:REX is supporting the ludicrous Macedonian Slav national myths about St. Cyril being a Macedonian Slav. His pushing the POV of adding his picture in the article Slav Macedonians under the conviction that he had a Slavic mother. I warned him that if he continued to do so, I'd put Scanderbeg's picture on the article Serbians. I'm planning to do this. If any Albanian complains I will just redirect them to REX's conviction until they're forced to remove Cyril's picture themselves. If you want to support me just play along. Miskin 13:10, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

What a blasphemy! He was Serb of course! ;) Nikola 00:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

My Serbian friends HolyRomanEmperor and Nikola. Do not let the biggest nationalist on Wikipedia (Miskin) pull you into his nationalistic and brainwashed claims. It is stupid to claim that St. Cyril and Methodious were Greeks, when they were proclaiming the Slavic culture in order to protect us all from the Greek assimilation. The stupidity of the Greek nationalist is endless. Do not let them make you a part of it. Macedonian 01:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Zajebi te Grke brate, oni tvrde da je svet poceo od njih, a tek su onda nastali dinosaurusi. :))

Cista mala informacija o REX-u. Decko je Albanac poreklom, ali je iz Grcke i zivi u Velikoj Britaniji. Veoma je fer i nema nista nacionalisticko u njemu. Jednom sam ga cak i pitao sta misli o odnose medzu Albancima i Makedoncima i Albancima i Srbima, rekao je da nema pojma o tome i da misli da je glupost sto smo ratovali.

Ja ga neznam licno, ali je jasno kao dan da njegov cilj je da pokaze ovde na Wikipedii koliki je Grcki nacionalizam i kako Grcija lomi covekova prava svim nacionalnostima sto zive u Grcku (Makedoncima, Turcima, Albancima, Bugarima itd.)

Zato te jos jednom molim da razmilsis dobro pre nego sto prihvatis neku saradnju sa tipovima kao sto je Miskin. Jebeni idiot lupa gluposti svaki dan, izmislja i laze, sve samo da bi podrzao svoje stavove.

Topli pozdrav sa juga... Macedonian 02:05, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Serbs in Germany

How do you mean I don't believe, I put that number there myself? Nikola 00:25, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

REX

Hello HolyRomanEmperor, the disputes on my talk page are over whether the primary ethnic group of the Republic of Macedonia are to be called Macedonians or Macedonian Slavs. There are people from every nation in the world supporting the former, while only Greeks are supporting the latter. There are more sources supporting the former as well. It's just that certain people have such a nationalistic closed mind that they refuse to accept reality! Do you want to join the discussion? If yes, be prepared to go through hell! :-)) REX 12:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I think you may have misunderstood me. I'm not arguing with you. I'm just highlighting what the discussions are like (they are currently taking place on Talk:Macedonian Slavs). That article is a hot-spot for nationalism af all nations. Serbs, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Americans, Canadians, Australians etc. I'm just saying that if you join, you will be confronting nationalism of all kinds, but mostly of the unreasonable variety. Where are you from? Your user name suggests a German background. REX 12:31, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Greetings from Macedonia

Warm greetings to you too my brother Serb.

I just came back from Belgrade couple of days ago, I had an incredible time, my cousin was getting married. :))

Brother, I would like to ask for your help and the help of the other fellow Serbs to help us defend our national identity from the constant Greek and Bulgarian attacks. I beleive that you know about the problems we have with the Greeks and some Bulgarians. Those people obviously do not have any contact with modern Macedonia and the Macedonians, so they keep proclaiming some hilarious ideas here on Wikipedia, ideas that are centuries old.

I beleive that you have more contact with Macedonians and I hope there is something you can say about it on the Macedonia related Wiki pages.

The Macedonians and the Serbs found a way how to cooperate and respect each other more than 65 years ago. Too bad that some nationalistic Greeks and Bulgarians got stucked in the time and stayed in the last century. :)

Take care, Macedonian 01:53, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have to express sadness for your misfortune (I read a part of your life story on the User REX's page). Whatever you are (Croatian or Serb), is what you feel, not what someone else made you. Anyway, at the end, we are all just humans... Macedonian 02:14, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

About Cyril and Methodius... there are several versions what they were by their mother or father. Non of those versions can be 100% confirmed. The important thing is that all the world knows that they were both promoters of the Slavic culture and language. I don't even know what the Greeks want, when Cyril and Methodius obviously never supported the Greek assimilation of the region... actually, they dedicated their whole lives in defending the Slavs from the Greek assimilation.

Concerning the Greek and Bulgarian nationalists... you can only read the page dedicated for Macedonia and everything will be clear to you. The page is full of historical POV pushings, it supports only the Greek and Bulgarian extremist and their claims that the modern Macedonians are creation of Tito. It also says that until the World War 2 we wanted to be part of Bulgaria.

Just a reminder... during the World War 2, when Bulgaria occupied whole Macedonia, enormous number of Macedonians joined the partizans and fighted the Bulgarian occupators. If they were Bulgarians, why would they fight against them?

Also, the Greek POV pushers insist the term "Macedonian Slavs" to be used instead of "Macedonians". Another reminder... WHOLE world, except Greece and Cyprus, including goverments, organizations, institutions, enciclopedias call us Macedonians. In the same time, that is the only ethnicity that we identify with.

Doesn't seem right, does it?

And this is just 2 of 100s issues that we are forced to defend, only because we are Macedonians and because someone else would like to steal that history for themselves.

Macedonian 18:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism?

Please refrain from making baseless threats of banning for vandalism. For the definition of vandalism on Wikipedia, I recommend reading Wikipedia:Vandalism. Also, please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and maybe also Wikipedia:Harassment. Thank you. --Elephantus 21:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you

I have your message.  :) --VKokielov 21:35, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Rudjer Boscovich, accusations and personal insults

On the User talk:Probert you wrote:

user:Elephantus keeps editing my Rudjer Boskovic page without explaining his changes. No matter how many times I edit it back, he keeps adding the Croatian language in the text. I don't know what to do! HolyRomanEmperor 17:31, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Please note two things: page Rudjer Boscovich is not "yours" or "mine" or anyone else's. I simply readded the name in Croatian you seem to find particular pleasure in removing (and which was already present on the page before you started your peculiar campaign) and noted it duly in the edit summary. Someone previously added the Cyrillic version of the name in Serbian which made it necessary to split the two as Croatian doesn't use Cyrillic. Also, try at least going through the history of the page and reading the talk page and its archives before making allegations like these.

On my user page you wrote:

I have no will to fight an edit war with you. You should know: Fascists, Nationalists and rasists always go to the very bottom rung of the cultural society. HolyRomanEmperor 17:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

You seem to resort to superficial personal insults rather quickly after someone disagrees with you, without really considering the facts of the cases in question or reading through everything that has been written about them. I think this is very much against Wikipedia's policy and spirit. Please don't be surprised if people avoid communicating with you after you do such things. Thanks. --Elephantus 19:03, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I wish to incline that, although it was not my goal, I have unintentionally made personal attacks on user:Elephantus. HolyRomanEmperor 19:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The user:Elphantus had mentioned that I respond with personal insults when someone disagrees with me. This is wrong. The user ignored all my posts and neither agreed nor disagreed with me. The user had acused me of not reading everything through and not concidereing all facts when I actually see no sample of this (he didn't present me with anything at all to read) HolyRomanEmperor 19:35, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, let me make this clear: I don't have anything against you. I have something against some of your edits. The page Rudjer Boscovich, like a number of other pages connected with Croatia is on my watchlist and I'll continue to watch it. Also, this is not a forum or a chat club. If you have useful facts and references to prove them, add them. If you have a _good_ reason for something to be removed from a page, state it on the appropriate talk page. But please don't remove things from pages just because you "somehow feel" they shouldn't be there, and try to read what other people have written on the Talk page and have a look at the previous revisions of a page. --Elephantus 17:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

More Greetings

Greetings, my friend. Tell me, do you need a hand or two in anything? Fill me in and I will be there to help! PS Greetings from your friend in Newcastle upon Tyne, England, United Kingdom :-) REX 22:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Pa, dodji :)

Dodjes (http://sr.wikipedia.org/), pocnes da radis na nasim clancima i ukljucis se u zajednicu (za razliku engleske, mi imamo dovoljno malo ljudi [mada i ne bas malo] da imamo pravu zajednicu). Mislim, nista posebno, nista pod obavezom; samo pocnes da pises i tako... :) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 15:29, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

History of Bosnia

As much as I try to respond regularly sometimes I don’t visit English wikipedia for several days as I am also working on Bosnian wikipedia (if you are familiar with the language please visit us sometimes). I am not considering here if I am fond of you or not :). I merely stated that particular claim, that you are talking about in the section about History of Bosnia and Herzegovina, needs to be substantiated with some proof. I am not saying that it is wrong but I just need to see some proof as it seems dubious to me. Second problem with the claim is the relevance. Why is it relavant to include it in the article even it is correct? What does it want to imply and how will it improve the article. Complete your thought about this claim. --Dado 16:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mihajlo, Dubrovnik, clarifications

Vidio sam bio u prolazu onu sliku koju si stavio na stranicu - nisam bas skuzio kako to moze znaciti da mu je papa dao kraljevsku titulu? :)

Ispravljam sad ovo s Dubrovačkom republikom.

Mislim da ne možemo davati previše pozornosti tome što je Tvrtko mislio. Stranica je organizirana primarno kronološki, a sve njegove ekspanzionističke ideje su u biti potonule čim je umro (ako se dobro sjećam), tako da nema baš nekog većeg povijesnog utjecaja, nije relevantno.

--Joy [shallot] 18:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

E, ajd pogledaj izjave/činjenice iznesene u Republic of Ragusa#Culture pa reci na Talk:Republic of Ragusa što misliš o povezivanju jezika tadašnjih Dubrovčana s hrvatskim. --Joy [shallot] 19:27, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Ma, ne bih ja to nazvao nastavljanjem dinastije, ako je on bio samo jedan leteci a ciji se nasljednici nisu zvali Nemanjićima. Ili jesu i oni? AFAIR oni su bili Kotromanići.

Nisam bas siguran da se svi hrvatski lingvisti slazu s Ljudevitom Gajem po tom pitanju... :))

Nesto sam propustio sto se tice ove Paganije i toga? Zar nisu stranice unprotected, pa mozes sam ispraviti?

Ovo za Hrvate u Njemackoj sam cuo na nekoj emisiji o iseljenicima na Hrvatskom Radiju od nekog njihovog predstavnika, kao sto sam i napisao u edit summary. Znam da nije neka referenca, ali makar je nekakva - ono revertiranje koje je bilo u medjuvremenu nije uopce dalo nikakvu. --Joy [shallot]

OK, I corrected Duklja. While searching for other references, I also delved into the rulers section of Zahumlje and tried to make some sense of it. It's still fairly unclear. The House of Vlastimirović article could also use some clarification - whether the default domain of all those rulers was Raška or all Serb lands?

I see the picture again, although I can't quite figure it out. I see a man in a fancy uniform hold a small house or fortress in his hands? Can you link the page on njegos.org that talks about it?

If you mean the stuff at User talk:Joy#Good, I had read it, but I don't quite know what to do with it :) Does it contradict with anything on Wikipedia? I didn't notice any disparities other than the bits about western Bosnia - I thought the Kosača family ruled over Herzegovina? It's somewhat unclear how the Orthodoxy "jumped" over the Catholicism in central Bosnia before the Turkish conquest during the time of ban Kulin...

I'd be more amenable to consider Tvrtko as a Nemanjić if you gave me references so I could read up on it :)

--Joy [shallot] 09:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Serbian pictures

Hello Emperor, whose picture do you like on Talk:Serbs? GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 19:34, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good, you are Serbian, aren't you? Your views on the pictures sound good. However, maybe they could be reduced in size so that it could fit into a 500px space, but I don't know. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 22:11, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Languages

We came here, to America, a long, long time ago.

HRE, are you sure that, if you were Joy, you'd want that little blob on your user page?

--VKokielov 23:27, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

This blob: "This user should be the Chancelor of the United Nations. HolyRomanEmperor 17:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)". --VKokielov 21:03, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Answer from Macedonian

The identifying of the Macedonians in the censuses is complicated issue, even now, in the 21st century.

Just see how difficult is the situation of the Macedonian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria nowdays. Unfortunately, this situation was also similar in Serbia before the WW2. Having on mind how fucked up the things are for these people nowdays, you can just imagine what was happening some 60-70 years ago, and even more some 100-150 years ago.

If you need more information about these issues, you can visit some of the links found on google.com: The Human rights of the Macedonians in Greece, The Human rights of the Macedonians in Bulgaria.

Also, some interesting information about the treatment that Macedonians were receiving in the region can be found here: [Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, which is nowdays a part of Greece], [Macedonians in Pirin Macedonia, which is nowdays a part of Bulgaria]. The last 2 links are from a web site which is clearly supporting the Macedonian side of the story about both history and culture, but the facts about the treatment of the Macedonians in Greece and Bulgaria are supported by any major Human Righst organizations in the world.

I will repeat again. If so many shit is still happening nowdays, you can just imagine how was it for the Macedonians at the beggining of this century, when they didn't have their own country and were ignored by most of the sources which were under a clear presure from the other forces in the Region (Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, who were actually the deffending line of Europe against the Ottoman Empire).

I hope this explains your question. Please contact me for any further explanation/discusion you need. Macedonian 00:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Please use my talk page for any communication, because I am not always able to check the talk pages of all users that I communicate with (including you, my friend). Macedonian 00:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find comments on your last message on my talk page. Thanks.

Take care, Macedonian 02:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find comments on your last message on my talk page. Macedonian 02:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I have some oppinion that you have an idea about the region as a whole and the problems that concerns us. Maybe you should include in the disscussion at the following link: [[6]]. The Bulgarian user VMORO is keep trying to present the Macedonians as Bulgarians who Tito made quit their origin and become Macedonians. What a bullshit. Tito was actually sending to Goli Otok anyone who even mentioned independant Macedonia. Ans also, I beleive that you remember that we were pushed (untill the 1970s) and latter just asked to identify ourselfs as "Yugoslavians".

If you can, can you please help me out there? I am not asking you to support my oppinion. I am just asking you to help me protect my identity and the identity ofthe other Macedonians.

I will understand completely if you do not include in that disscussion. I am very aware that this issue is very boring and time consuming. Thanks anyway.

Take care my friend... Macedonian 04:15, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please find the newest comments on my talk page... Macedonian 04:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments are added on my talk page. Thanks for this discussion, it is quite nice to share ideas with someone who has good knowledge of the historical facts. Macedonian 02:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

New comments are added on my talk page. BTW, I never asked you in which town you live in? Macedonian 04:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments added at my talk page. Do you think that maybe e-mails would be easier to comunicate through? Macedonian 04:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I added comments on my talk page, concerning your last post on it. Please check. Cheers, my friend... Macedonian 04:17, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

chancellorship

Thanks :o) --Joy [shallot] 09:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Macedonians (ethnic group)

Of course you gave a clue. I appreciate every people's opinion :-) Bomac 17:16, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I fully agree that Macedonians are separate people from the others. But, what do you want to say in the part in which you mention the Montenegrins? Bomac 17:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, my friend, what's the matter? Bomac 16:46, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Wait a minute, wait a minute... Will you explain me what is going on with Ivo Andric, Rugjer Boskovic and Karl von Czoernig?!?

About Ivo Andric, I know that he was born in Travnik, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and some time he was living in Visegrad. About Rudjer Boskovic, I know that he was physician etc. As I've heard (on the Croatian national tv.), he is a Croat (Hrvat, Хрват)... Bomac 17:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

just some thoughts

Perhaps when someone calls someone else a friend, he tries to be cool and civil. I had some strong disagreements with the user that Probert and you seem to "disagree" with and as I told Probert he should try an RFC. Going around and calling him names doesn't accomplish anything. With my regards, +MATIA ☎ 18:12, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

????? HolyRomanEmperor 11:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes

I understand you completely. But, I can't find anything about Karl von Czo. and I am not very familiar with him, which means that I can't talk without arguments. Regards. Bomac 17:17, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about REX... Bomac 13:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello HolyRomanEmperor, I'm sorry for not responding to your many messages. I had a few essays to prepare and did not respond to any messages as I had very little time online. It was very rude of me to keep you waiting like this, but I couldn't help it. A vandal called User:SuperTroll lives in the same city as me and uses the same ISP as me. We both have dynamic IP, so to block him, they make a range block, which also, unfortunately puts me out of commission as well. That is why I had to use public computers if I wanted to edit Wikipedia, so I had relatively very little time online. David Gerard was just explaining to me what to do if a range block affected me.

I would like to say that you have been very helpful on the Macedonians (ethnic group) page, but unfortunately no one seems to listen to you. It's a shame really, as you are one of the few people editing that page with something approximating sanity :-)

Tell me something; does Serbia have any ambitions to join the EU? I mean Croatia does, but I haven't heard anything about Serbia.

REX 13:15, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

FYROM denar

Could you please vote at Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move if the article FYROM denar should be renamed Macedonian denar. I (and the whole world except Greeks) think that it should be called Macedonian denar. That is the name that the CIA World Factbook, the World Bank and every other bank on the planet uses. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 15:36, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments on Talk:FYROM denar#Requested move. Another favour, could you please vote support along with everyone else if you want the page to be moved back to Macedonian denar and was arbitraraly moved by Greek nationalists. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 17:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)