Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jorge Otero Barreto

Jorge Otero Barreto

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Jorge Otero Barreto (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Fails WP:SOLDIER and WP:GNG. His awards do not satisfy #1 of WP:SOLDIER. The claims that he was/is "the most decorated U.S. soldier of the Vietnam War" are not supported by RS and are demonstrably false, as Robert L. Howard, Joe Hooper (Medal of Honor), David Hackworth and presumably several others, were more decorated and/or with medals of higher precedence. As he was not the "most decorated" there is no basis to the claimed notability. Similarly being "possibly the most decorated U.S. soldier in the Vietnam War living today" is a tenuous basis for claiming notability, while having two buildings named after him (one in his home town) doesn't establish notability either. The claim that he served 5 tours in South Vietnam with multiple different units is not reliably sourced. Mztourist (talk) 08:18, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 08:21, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Puerto Rico-related deletion discussions. Mztourist (talk) 08:22, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - It isn't a question of him receiving the Medal of Honor (example) or not, it is the amount of military decorations which he was awarded. There are plenty of sources in the internet in regard to this fact. Tony the Marine (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Then you need to provide multiple RS confirming that he was awarded more decorations than anyone else. The current references don't support your assertion of that as the basis for his notability. Mztourist (talk) 13:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - The claim that he served 5 tours in Vietnam is covered with this source which I'll add to his article. On this ref from militarytimes it states he was deployed 5 times to Vietnam and states his awards, museums named after him.. The source state he earned "three Silver Stars, five Purple Hearts, five Bronze Stars, five Air Medals and four Army Commendation Medals". He is notable. he was the "most decorated Puerto Rican soldier.. and one of the most decorated of the entire Vietnam conflict" see here on nps.gov --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

In this resolution it states he was the "most decorated soldier of the Vietnam War". This is a resolution that was sent to the US Congress and multiple other agencies.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 19:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

What are you actually claiming as the basis of his notability? Other soldiers received more (and higher) decorations. We don't have pages for the most decorated soldier from each state so being the most decorated Puerto Rican soldier isn't notable. The document that you have provided is non-RS. Mztourist (talk) 03:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Also he seems to have SIGCOV in multiple RS to meet WP:GNG. The document I provided is from a Reliable Source. It is from a Latin advocacy group who dots their "i's" and crosses their "ts" (they check everything) before they send the document off to congress for review.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

An "advocacy group" says it all, they have an agenda they are pushing and so cannot be regarded as RS. “most decorated soldier in the Vietnam War” is in quotes in the resolution, meaning they are quoting from somewhere else. They certainly don't "dots their "i's" and crosses their "ts" (they check everything)" as you suggest, as they refer to the "The Combat Infantry Badge" when its the Combat Infantryman Badge. What is the SIGCOV in multiple RS? I don't see any. Mztourist (talk) 03:46, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Would like to add that this document also incorrectly states that he received 3 Silver Stars when he actually was awarded 2. This advocacy group obviously did not check their information very carefully, nor did MilitaryTimes. Roam41 (talk) 02:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - A U.S. Major General (see cites), in addition to two other credible organizations --of which at least one is "sponsored by the US Congress"-- have identified SFC Otero Barreto as "the most decorated U.S. soldier" of the Vietnam War. BTW, none of the 3 other soldiers presented by the nominator as counter arguments (Robert Howard ("may have been the most highly decorated"), Joe Hooper ("one of the most-decorated soldiers in the Vietnam War"), and David Hackworth ("was decorated in both the Korean War and Vietnam War") have a single RS, let alone "multiple", calling them "the most decorated". Mercy11 (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

The sources that you have provided are clearly not RS. The League of United Latin American Citizens is a lobbying group. The remarks of a retired Puerto Rican USAF general are just his opinion and obviously POV and he couldn't even get the war right referring to the Korean War and not Vietnam. VVA is a lobbying group and the story refers to him as "the most decorated Puerto Rican veteran" not the most decorated U.S. soldier. So there are no RS that he was the "most decorated U.S. soldier" of the Vietnam War. I have added numerous RS to Robert Howard which variously describe him as "one of the most decorated soldiers in the Vietnam War" (LA Times and New York Times obits); "may have been the most highly decorated American soldier of the modern era" (NBC News); "said to be the most decorated service member in the history of the United States" (KWTX-TV) and ""remains to this day [1998] the most highly decorated American soldier." (John Plaster), all far more reliable than the sources you and others have proffered. Mztourist (talk) 03:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

What additionally concerns me is we have to dip down to the third level of valor awards (SS) before we see an award. And if we're going to start counting medals, I'm sure any number of pilots could exceed the 38 decorations. Intothatdarkness 20:22, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

• Comment This article has been problematic for a long time and I am glad it has been put up for deletion discussion. The notability issue has been brought up before. However, there are several editors working on the page with an intense agenda to claim Jorge Otero Barreto as the most decorated soldier of the Vietnam War, despite any and all evidence to the contrary. There has been no attempt to keep a neutral POV. When confronted with opposing evidence, the page was rewritten to say that he "has been called the most decorated U.S. soldier of the Vietnam War". It is a technicality, but a misleading one and the reliability of the sources has been discussed above. In fact, he is not the most decorated. He is not the most highly decorated as he does not have the Medal of Honor or the Distinguished Service Cross. He also does not have the most number of medals. David Hackworth has over 60 and Patrick Henry Brady has the MOH, the DSC plus 52 Air Medals, to show some examples. Looking back at the references used in early drafts of this article (most are deadlinks now), it appears the claim may have been that Otero Barreto was perhaps the most decorated Puerto Rican soldier of the Vietnam War. (I am not sure how even this could be possible since there are several soldiers from Puerto Rico who were awarded the Medal of Honor during Vietnam.) If this was actually the original sourced claim, then it has now been blown out of proportion. Unfortunately this WP article is being used almost exclusively as the sole source of information about Sgt. Otero Barreto. If the article is kept, I can only hope it can be edited to be more neutral and truthful. Deletion would also be an appropriate decision. Roam41 (talk) 04:20, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

  Finally, a rational editor in the discussion. Lettler^{hello • contribs} 15:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisted to enable further discussion of the sources and allow a more clear policy-based consensus to emerge in relation to disposition.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jack Frost (talk) 02:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Per Jack Frost's relist.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 11:08, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep per Wikipedia:GNG. --Kemalcan (talk) 13:28, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
• Keep -- "called the most decorated U.S. soldier of the Vietnam War.[4][2][3][5][6] -- five sources" It would be helpful to have him in the database in case someone was doing research into the most decorated soldiers during the Vietnam War, etc. Durindaljb (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Except none of them are RS and we have multiple RS that Robert L. Howard was the most decorated soldier of the Vietnam War and possibly most in US history. Mztourist (talk) 03:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Keep - as well explained above with all the others 'keeps'. - wolf 01:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
• Keep "the most decorated U.S. soldier of the Vietnam War" is a notable accomplishment. Dream Focus 02:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

It would be, except he isn't as you would see by reading above.Mztourist (talk) 03:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

• Well he was one of the most, and the most decorated of his ethnic group. Also: Otero Barreto became the first Puerto Rican to graduate from the Army’s Air Assault School[1] Dream Focus 03:24, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

"One of" isn't notable, nor is his ethnic group, nor being first Puerto Rican to do something. The coverage is either wrong or locally biased and not significant. Mztourist (talk) 03:30, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't short on space, and his accomplishments seem notable enough to me. Disagree all you want, but most people have stated this article should be kept. Dream Focus 03:46, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

yes WP isn't short of space, but retaining pages based on tenuous notability (particularly "first x to do/die/be awarded for doing y") which are poorly sourced just lowers the quality bar altogether and leads to the creation of more dross. Mztourist (talk) 04:41, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

And I'm not sure how he could have been the first anyone to graduate from a school that didn't exist in 1960. The Howze Board (considered the birthplace of air assault/airmobile doctrine by most historians) didn't form until 1962. Intothatdarkness 21:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

United States Army Air Assault School is where the 101st Airborne Division is currently trained at. The article for the 101st show they are decades older than that, so they had to train somewhere. Dream Focus 22:03, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

If you check the history of the 101st, you would see they didn't become airmobile until around 1968. There was no air assault training in any real form prior to 1963-64 when the 11th Air Assault Division (Test) was formed to evaluate the concept. And as near as I can determine, he never served with the units that provided cadre to create the test division. And the claim in the article (that Barreto was the first Puerto Rican to complete the 101st training) assumes that NO Puerto Ricans served in the division during, say, World War II. Intothatdarkness 22:08, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The United States Army Air Assault School article reads: The 101st Airborne Division, a parachute and glider-borne unit that conducted two jumps during World War II, was converted to an Airmobile unit in 1968 in Vietnam, becoming the 101st Airborne Division (Airmobile). The school existed before then, he could've trained there, and then joined the 101st later on. I'm sure there is a government website listing everyone who ever served. https://valor.militarytimes.com/hero/113830 says he earned his silver medal for what he did in Battalion: 1st Battalion (Airborne) and Division: 101st Air Cavalry Division. I found another reliable source giving ample coverage about this person at: https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/07/26/puerto-rican-rambo-went-on-over-200-combat-missions-in-vietnam/ Dream Focus 22:28, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The school did not exist before 1968. There was ad hoc air assault training conducted at some Basic Training locations during Vietnam, and the divisions conducted additional training based on their needs once soldiers arrived in-country and were assigned. But that training didn't exist prior to 1966 except in the 11th AAD and (once it was reflagged) the 1st Cavalry Division. And the air assault badge wasn't created until 1978, and was considered retroactive to 1974. The statements just don't stand up. Intothatdarkness 22:31, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

And the first linked RS has a note 'citation needed'. I think that kind of sums the article up. The second Military Times piece looks like a rehash of the Wikipedia article. Intothatdarkness 22:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The article says they had schools in multiple locations, some older than others. https://www.army.mil/article/238168/five_historical_things_to_know_about_101st_on_its_anniversary is the official army's website. Dream Focus 22:37, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

As I said above being the "first x to do/die/be awarded for doing y" is not notable. I'm sure all of us could claim to be the first person from some nationality to do something. The sources are very poor for every claim in this page and many of them are just plain wrong. He wasn't "the most decorated soldier" and if the "Air Assault School" didn't exist at the time he supposedly attended it, then that source is wrong too. Overall the sources for this page are weak and extremely locally biased just like the pages of many other Puerto Rican "heroes". Mztourist (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

• Delete based on the nom's initial assessment and the multitude of apparent factual errors in the article itself. I would feel better about the notability of the individual if it was based on something other than his military record (which, as presented in this article, is full of holes at best...if his work with VVA can be documented in RS as being notable it might be a better starting point). Intothatdarkness 14:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)