Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement
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Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Israeli apartheid/WP:APARTHEID Centralized discussion
As part of this arbitration it was ruled discussion should happen in WP:APARTHEID (see here). To make navigation of the series easier, a navbox was created {{Allegations of apartheid}}. This navbox was subject to an AfD, which was no consensus[1] and further consensus after the AfD developed to edit the box to a version that includes a link to the centralized discussion. A number of anonymous editors have removed this link in the last few days, alleging it violates WP:ASR, and commented on the talk page [2]. However, one of the anon editors commented in an entirely different fashion, which leads one to believe that this is more a disruptive editor than a good faith attempt to defend WP:ASR[(see here). Furthermore, only anon editors have been involved, it is only rarely one sees anonymous editors defending policy, specially one as ignored and obscure as WP:ASR (I do agree with it, but facts are facts).
(The similarity of arguments leads one to believe this might be a sockpuppet or meatpuppet case, but I am raising this where appropriate.)
I just want clarification if linking to the "centralized discussion" (ruled by ArbCom) is in fact a violation of WP:ASR, and if it is, if it is reasonable to WP:IAR in order to publicize the centralized discussion as part of the dispute resolution process. Thanks!--Cerejota 04:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- ArbCom merely ruled that WP:APARTHEID should be the central location for discussions; you make it sound as if they ruled that the template (which did not exist back then) had to somehow incorporate a link to it. I (yes, for the record, I use both of the IP addresses) did go thru and add a link to this centralized discussion page on the top of all the relevant talk pages (
well, except the template talk page -- that only just occurred to me, I'll fix itdone!). That's the proper way to handle this, not crossing namespaces, per WP:ASR. -- 146.115.58.152 04:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, I am asking ArbCom to rule if strict adherence to WP:ASR is more important than giving publicity to a centralized discussion ruled by them. I clearly invoked WP:IAR. Please read what I wrote again. Thanks!--Cerejota 19:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- WP:ASR#Articles are about their subjects seems clear cut -- "our articles are about their subjects; they are not about the articles themselves" -- as is WP:ASR#In the Template and Category namespaces: "Limited use of self-references are sometimes found in the Template namespace and the Category namespace, such as with disambiguation and stub notices. Expanding this to other areas is not encouraged due to the need of third party users to either delete those templates or modify them to remove the Wikipedia references." I don't see a compelling rationale for ignoring the guideline. -- 146.115.58.152 20:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, I am asking ArbCom to rule if strict adherence to WP:ASR is more important than giving publicity to a centralized discussion ruled by them. I clearly invoked WP:IAR. Please read what I wrote again. Thanks!--Cerejota 19:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Clearly you misunderstand WP:IAR, because I argue we have a compelling reason to self-reference: the need for a wider community attention to the ArbCom ruled centralized discussion. You are putting the needs of a dispute resolution procedure beneath the needs of WP:FORK. The question is: What is more important? To resolve a conflict or to guarantee a smooth WP:FORK?
However, I must state this again WP:ASR doesn't forbid anything, it even allows for self-reference in certain circumstances: it discourages, which we all agree is not forbidding or requiring. I think your argument that WP:ASR applies is weak, and furthermore, that the needs of the community are to be considered before the needs of the WP:FORKing. ArbCom should clarify which perspective is correct. Thanks!--Cerejota 21:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The need for wider attention of WP:APARTHEID is already addressed by linking to it at the top of the various involved talk pages (1 2 3 4 5 5 6 7 and 8) as well as including Template:Wider attention on the WP:APARTHEID page itself. You may suggest the WP:ASR guideline is merely window dressing for a bothersome existance of WP:FORKs just as easily as I can suggest it's a core underlying part of WP:ENC, a principle which in my perspective is undermined by cross-linking to wikipedia space from article space at a whim. But I would also appreciate ArbCom's clarification. -- 146.115.58.152 22:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I think I have resolved the WP:ASR allegation by including the "offending" text and links under {{selfref}} as WP:ASR. I find it ironic that the anonymous editor so keen on defending WP:ASR overlooked this solution. I'll admit I overlooke dit because I am sure there is no WP:ASR violation, however, that is moot. A self-reference included within {{selfref}} is allowed as the only reason to avoid self-references is to allow WP:FORK. Thanks!--Cerejota 21:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- That does solve the problem on mirrors, which was my main concern. However, WP:FORK is only a secondary rationale behind WP:ASR: "The first is that self-references are often considered disruptive in an encyclopedia because they distract from the topic at hand." So I'm still not sure if it is in the spirit of WP:ASR, but I'll leave it until ArbCom makes a decision here. -- 146.115.58.152 22:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- In what way is pointing in the direction of an ArbCom-ruled centralized discussion disruptive? Thanks!--Cerejota 06:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- There may be something to be said for not going out of our way to draw ordinary reader's attention to all that ugly and endless bickering. Please ignore the man behind the curtain, to coin a phrase. A lot of the original ArbCom issues were resolved long ago by the consensus to merge all the different "type X apartheid" articles into Allegations of Apartheid, getting rid of Apartheid (disambiguation), making Apartheid redirect to the historical South African Apartheid with dab links up top, and moving Israeli apartheid to Allegations of Israeli apartheid (though people have been complaining about that ever since, even people who supported the move in the first place). So for the most part, WP:APARTHEID has already accomplished what the original ArbCom intended it to accomplish. If they aren't going to take up another case and give that page new direction, it won't be anything more than a central place for people to vent. -- 67.98.206.2 19:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- You think the controversy is over, and hence the centralized discussion has outlived its usefulness? If so, please raise an RfC in the centralized discussion itself, or present the question to ArbCom. But first saying you want something out for techno-bureaucratic reasons and then switching to a clear content dispute is suspiciously close to try to overcome consensus by bureaucratic means. Likewise, I offer by the level of activity this has recently seen, that your impression that the centralized discussion has "already accomplished what the original ArbCom intended it to accomplish" is wrong. The controversy (And even the cast of characters) remains essentially the same. However, this is the ArbCom board, so what better place to ask!
- ArbCom: Is 67.98.206.2 correct and the centralized discussion "already accomplished what the original ArbCom intended it to accomplish" or is it still a valid place for this discussion? Please provide guidance and clarification. Thanks!--Cerejota 05:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Hajji Piruz (talk · contribs) (formerly Azerbaijani (talk · contribs)) has been placed on a revert parole by the Arbitration Committee. The final decision in his case is here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan#Azerbaijani_placed_on_revert_parole.
Hajji Piruz has been placed on revert parole and limited to one revert per page per week. Further, he is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page [3]
However, on the List of Azerbaijani films: 1898-1919 Hajji Piruz removed the link to the country of Azerbaijan 3 times within the last 2 days: [4], [5] [6], which is a clear violation of his parole.
Reported by: Atabek 06:40, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is not a parole violation. I only made one revert on that article: [7]. My edit after that was not a revert [8]. Infact, it is completely different.
- This is not the first time such a false report has been made. Atabek, the revert parole says that I cannot revert more than once per article per week. Assume good faith please.
- I did not break my parole.
- In the mean time, Atabek, Grandmaster, and Dacy69 have been trading reverts on that article. Grandmaster makes a partial revert: [9], then Atabek made a partial revert back to Grandmaster [10] and then Dacy69 makes a complete revert to Atabek [11] (interestingly, Dacy69's first edit since the 26, after a 4-5 day break, was to come and revert that article [12]).Hajji Piruz 15:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, from what I can see the purpose of your edits listed here (all 3 of them) was to remove the link to the article about Azerbaijan. So it was violation of parole. Grandmaster 17:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, the purpose of my edits were to present the most accurate and factual information. Assume good faith. Wikipedia is not the place for POV or OR. The facts should always be presented.Hajji Piruz 00:18, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- The clear intent of the edits was to remove the link to Azerbaijan as a country; two of the edits were clear reverts and the third edit had the effect of continuing the dispute by removing the link but replacing it with a different text. Blocked for 24 hours. Thatcher131 00:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Green108 behaving exactly like banned user 195.82.106.244
Regarding arbitration case Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Brahma_Kumaris.
It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that Green108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is an incarnation of 195.82.106.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Perhaps his account is being shared or he is editing and posting as a proxy. Green108 appears to have edited logged-out as 212.126.146.163 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). The usual behaviours such as taunting opponents, edit waring, posting off-topic trolls [13], ignoring policies, guidelines and consensus are now in full evidence. Admin Utcursch recently cleaned up the article [14] after it was tagged to reflect the problems identified here and Green108 didn't waste anytime trying to revert all the changes [15] [16]. This pattern is still continuing. I suggest that it is absolutely impossible to keep the article within Wikipedia's policies and guidelines while it is under this kind of sustained pressure.
Addition suspected sockpuppets are Faithinhumanity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Bkangel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). These are being used to astroturf on the talk page [17] [18] and support his edit revisions [19] [20].
Checkuser request filed Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Green108.
Regards Bksimonb 18:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I do not believe that Green108 is a sockpuppet of 195.82.106.244. He started contributing long before 195.82.106.244 was banned. Andries 18:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- This leaves proxying as the only plausible possibility, but I have no idea how this can be proven beyond reasonable doubt or with even a degree of certainty. Andries 19:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Andries. Yes I agree with your assessment. It is interesting to note that the various suspected sockpuppets of 244 that hammered the article mysteriously stopped as soon as Green108 arrived back in March. Also if you compare Green108's editing style from last year to now it is markedly different from March onwards. It would be interesting to see if any of the initial March edits match the edits made by the various socks before that. Now he is baiting editors into revert waring by making tendentious edits in a daily cycle which is exactly what 244, and the various suspected incarnations between January and March, did. Regards Bksimonb 09:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I note that Checkuser came back with "Likely that Bkangel and Shortskirtlonglegs are Green108's sockpuppets." I found some more history at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/195.82.106.244 (2nd), which concludes with a note that the discussion was dealt with here back in March. That discussion is archived at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive4#User:195.82.106.244. GRBerry 16:44, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- Bkangel and Shortskirtlonglegs have been blocked indefinitely by WikiLeon; Green108 was blocked for one week by the same admin. GRBerry 02:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
User:Dacy69 gaming 1RR
- Dacy69 is under ArbCom parole for 1 revert per week [21], and has been blocked three times since the ArbCom limited him on 1RR [22].
Dacy69 is gaming the system by meatpupeting for Grandmaster and Atabek by reverting for them when they exhaust their 1RR's. Please note that he never edited the following articles before or after the revert, neither did he participated in the talkpage before or after he reverted. His explanations in the talkpage for the reverts, were only a sentence long. He is clearly trying to circumvent his parole and continues his edit warring. The following are his reverts, edit summaries and the explanations in the discussion page.
Sahl ibn Sunbat reverts, edit summary: (rv - pls. engage in talkpage)
Talk "Agree that article should be fixed but not by using socks. I rv'ed new editor. Current version accomodate both version." He never edited the article before, neither did he participated in the talkpage.
House of Hasan Jalalyan reverts, edit summary: (rv - dont delete sourced info)
Talk "And put your arguments here so we will be able to discuss". Never edited the article before, neither has he participated in the discussion.
List of Azerbaijani films 1898-1919 reverts, edit summary: (rv)
Talk "Discussion about the name of Azerbaijan does not belong here: Never edited the article before, neither has he participated in the discussion.
Movses Kaghankatvatsi reverts, edit summary: "(rv - see discussion. we should use in article like that neutral source)"
Talk "MarshalBagramyan, your last edit has refrence to non-neutral source while you have reverted neutral source.". Never edited the article before, neither has he participated in the discussion.
Khojaly Massacre revertes, edit summary: "(rv - see talkpage)"
Talk ":Statement is full POV we dont have personal interpretation here." Never edited the article before, neither has he participated in the discussion.