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Commissioner Service (Boy Scouts of America)

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Here is one of many BSA articles outlining (well) one of the many organizational functions within Boy Scouts of America--articles on subjects that have no real-world importance whatsoever. Evrik just reverted my removal of blatantly unencyclopedic material, including, ahem, a section on the "wreath of service", sourced to the BSA website. Please look at the sources: it is ALL primary, it is ALL Boy Scouts. There are no secondary sources, and none can be found. This kind of content is just not acceptable--NOTWEBHOST would almost apply. Drmies (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment before I address the merits of the AfD, I want to say that this nomination is clearly an act retaliation, and a prime example of Wikipedia:Sour grapes or being disruptive just to make a point. After Drmies made a major deletion of content, I reverted it and indicated that the change should be discussed on the talk page. Drmies went to the talk page and started name calling and making allegations. Right after that, he went and nominated the article for deletion. I'll address the merits of the deletion debate later, but this nomination is not in good faith. The tone of the posts on the talk page, and the retaliatory nature of this nomination are not in keeping with the standards of behavior expected of an admin. --evrik ^(talk) 02:33, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I think assuming good faith is warranted here. Opening an AFD and expressing an opinion is, in a way, starting a discussion that you advised in an edit summary he do. Ultimately, the concerns he raised, if valid (and I tend to think they are), do cast serious doubt on whether this article belongs on Wikipedia at all. Go Phightins! 02:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - If you read the comments made on the talk page, it's difficult to AGF. Also, if one is acting in good faith they keep the discussion on the talk page and don't elevate to an AfD. The tone of the posts on the talk page, and the retaliatory nature of this nomination are not in keeping with the standards of behavior expected of an admin. --evrik ^(talk) 03:21, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete (disclosure: an Eagle Scout myself): Drmies lays it out well. Just not notable as a standalone topic. I did an academic literature search to see if there happened to be any coverage of it from sort of an organizational theory perspective, and the closest I came up with was "Factors influencing successful net promoter score adoption by a nonprofit organization: a case study of the Boy Scouts of America", but even that includes commissioners only in a list. In the context of an article on the BSA and its management structure itself, maybe this warrants, like, a sentence. But it's not a stand-alone article. Go Phightins! 02:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Go Phightins!, Eagle Scout? Bravo! My daughter is next in line. Thanks for the comment. What's happening here I think is that thing where if you're inside an organization, everything that happens in that organization has to be important and notable to everyone else. I have that with Wikipedia, haha. Drmies (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - Drmies, Congrats to her! The creation of "girl troops" can only be a positive for the organization, as far as I'm concerned (although a better name than "girl troops" would certainly be welcome lol). Anyway, I think you're right on with this article ... having known some unit commissioners over the years, I doubt even they would ascribe independent importance to the role outside the broader context of the organization (which is, of course, not particularly relevant except that it affirms the idea that this is not a particularly notable subject for an encyclopedia). As an aside, Scout Commissioner probably ought not be an article of its own either. Go Phightins! 09:51, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    - Do we need an article about the position? You could that make argument about any position within an organization, i.e. an umpire or First baseman in baseball or CEO, COO, or CIO at a company. The national commissioner is not only is a key corporate officer, but that role is repeated throughout the organization. As for being inside an organization, why then do we have WikiProjects or rely on subject matter experts? Discounting people because they are part of an organization discounts their expertise. --evrik ^(talk) 15:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I too am an Eagle Scout, and am involved with the Scouting WikiProject.

First, as I said earlier, I did revert the deletion. Much of the content was sourced. It's easy to say the content is unencyclopedic, but this should be discussed - not randomly deleted. Also, there are ways to tag the content for improvement.

Second, whether or not the content content has importance in the real-world is hardly subjective. Commissioners in the BSA are one of the most important positions in the organization. In fact, last I checked more than 50 articles linked to it. The position is part of the Key 3 along with the Scout Executive and the president. Internationally, there are Scout Commissioners in most countries. The wreath of service section was not only cited, but explains the significance of the laurel wreath in Scouting.

Finally, does the article need work, perhaps some expansion, and better sourcing? Sure. I'm sure that better sourcing can be found. Of the fourteen citations, half were from the BSA. Others were from related sites. However, it has to be kept for it to be improved. This nomination isn't about the quality of the article, or the work that needs to be done. This nomination about someone getting upset because their fly-by deletions were challenged, and being very WP:Pointy. --evrik ^(talk) 03:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

- Yeah, there are no secondary sources, not in the article and not on the internet, and that's because in the real world this position just doesn't matter. No, the content you reverted was not sourced--unless your standard is Wikia. There is no secondary sourcing here; I looked. Whether this is important inside the organization is completely irrelevant; my BSA-certified wife tells me it means something, sure, but so what? And seriously, the laurel wreath? That's clutching at straws. Before you go on, show secondary sources. Drmies (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - The central point of this nomination is that the subject is not notable. I'm puzzled by the fixation on laurel wreaths. Earlier, I noted that more than fifty other articles link to the article, so that shows the central importance of the position within the organization. No one has challenged that. The sole issue for Drmies nomination was on the sourcing. First of all, Wikipedia:PRIMARYCARE allows for the use of primary sources on "The organization's own website is an acceptable (although possibly incomplete) primary source for information about what the company says about itself and for most basic facts about its history, products, employees, finances, and facilities." I agree that sourcing this page is an issue, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted. I disagree with the statement there are no secondary sources. Let me break down the sources:

Primary

Moegenburg, Michael (May 23, 2020). "Please Welcome Scott Sorrels as our New National Commissioner". Scouting Forums. BSA. Retrieved January 14, 2021.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
"New Regional/ Area Commissioner Positions Approved" (PDF). Boy Scouts of America. Archived from the original (PDF) on July 20, 2008. Retrieved April 4, 2008.
"New Council Service Delivery Structure and Organization". Narragansett Council. 2010. Archived from the original on March 19, 2012. Retrieved February 12, 2019.
"Other Commissioner Resources".
"Commissioner Basic Training (using training manual No.33613F". 2007-11-16. Archived from the original on 2007-11-16.

Secondary

Randy Worcester (2010). Commissioner Service, Our First Hundred Years (PDF). Middle Tennessee Council.
"List of Silver Buffalo recipients". Scouting Magazine. Retrieved May 22, 2018.
Wendell, Bryan (May 31, 2018). "Meet the two new volunteers on the BSA's National Key 3". Bryan on Scouting. Scouting Magazine. Archived from the original on June 1, 2018. Retrieved May 31, 2018.
"The History of Commissioner Service". Golden Empire Council. Archived from the original on October 28, 2007. Retrieved June 9, 2006.

Unclear

"Please welcome Scott Sorrels as our new National Commissioner". Commissioners of the Boy Scouts of America. 2020-05-23 – via facebook.

Other sources that mention commissioners, or someone in the role of commissioner

International

USA

I can keep going. Finally, the article also has a historic listing of all the national commissioners. This too should be kept. --evrik ^(talk) 15:19, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Evrik, Every single one of those sources is from the BSA or from a council or from a BSA-affiliated magazine. None qualify as significant coverage. Go Phightins! 16:00, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. None of the cited sources are independent, and a significant portion of the article is not sourced at all, even to BSA sources. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin: Just to be clear, my argument supporting deletion is based on the nom and my own failure to find any non-primary sources, not any kind of "lived experience" that I brought up mostly in an attempt to be collegial and own any possible bias I bring to the conversation. Just didn't want that to get confused in some of the "side conversations" (that admittedly I suppose belong on a talk page ... meh). Go Phightins! 09:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect: I would not go so far as to say the position "doesn't matter in the real world", as it is one of the Key 3 roles in the Scouting movement. For the BSA's millions of members, the position is an important and well-respected one. From the standpoint of GNG, however, I too checked everywhere, including JSTOR, ProQuest, and newspapers.com, and can't find any independent secondary sources that have more than passing mentions of BSA Commissioner. ‎ So I believe the best solution is to merge its content‎ to the "Organization" section of Scout councils (Boy Scouts of America)‎, leaving a redirect. JGHowes ^talk 15:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- User:JGHowes, that is just fine with me. My notion of "real world" is based on the lack of secondary sourcing--it's a Wikipedia-inflected version of the real world. Drmies (talk) 17:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 49: / Line 49: @@
 * '''Note to closing admin''': Just to be clear, my argument supporting deletion is based on the nom and my own failure to find any non-primary sources, not any kind of "lived experience" that I brought up mostly in an attempt to be collegial and own any possible bias I bring to the conversation. Just didn't want that to get confused in some of the "side conversations" (that admittedly I suppose belong on a talk page ... meh). '''[[User:Go Phightins!|<span style="color: blue;">Go</span>]] [[User talk:Go Phightins!|<span style="color: #E90004;">''Phightins''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Go Phightins!|<span style="color: #008504;">!</span>]]''' 09:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 *'''Merge and redirect:''' I would not go so far as to say the position "doesn't matter in the real world", as it is one of the ''Key 3'' roles in the Scouting movement. For the BSA's millions of members, the position is an important and well-respected one. From the standpoint of GNG, however, I too checked everywhere, including JSTOR, ProQuest, and newspapers.com, and can't find any independent secondary sources that have more than passing mentions of BSA Commissioner. ‎ So I believe the best solution is to merge its content‎ to the "Organization" section of [[Scout councils (Boy Scouts of America)‎]], leaving a redirect. <i><b><small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">[[User:JGHowes|<span style="color:white;background:#008000;">&nbsp;JGHowes&nbsp; </span>]]</span></small><span style="color: blue;"> <sup>[[User talk:JGHowes|''talk'']]</sup></span></b></i> 15:12, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
+**[[User:JGHowes]], that is just fine with me. My notion of "real world" is based on the lack of secondary sourcing--it's a Wikipedia-inflected version of the real world. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 17:39, 25 March 2021 (UTC)