Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fire stations in Columbus, Ohio: Difference between revisions

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Fire stations in Columbus, Ohio

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Subject fails NLIST/ LISTN as well as GNG. The opaque bare URL sources are impossible for me to decipher. Many, if not all, towns/ cities have fire stations so it's not clear to me how these ones would be notable. A BEFORE search only revealed only materials from those fire departments, from Ohio government offices, or historical offices in pay of same so there is no independence from the subject. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Ohio. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:00, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not particularly notable. All towns have fire stations so I don't see any reason why this list should exist. It also fails NLIST. There does not seem to be any significant in-depth coverage. FlutterDash344 (talk) 19:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a drive-by comment with no real work put into it. You can find an insane amount of information on many of these buildings, and certainly there are news articles about each and every one. $ɱ$ (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It would be nice if the article's creator had included the title, date and newspaper for each reference accessed through the Columbus Metropolitan Library, but the context suggests that they are mostly newspaper articles from the Columbus Dispatch. Fire stations often have architectural merit, and I see from the footnotes that at least one station is on the National Register of Historic Places. In addition to the massive amount of coverage from the Columbus Dispatch over the years, the book A Historical Guidebook to Old Columbus: Finding the Past in the Present in Ohio's Capital City, is already cited as a reference. The Ben Hayes reference includes two newspaper articles from the Fabulous Short North newspaper. The first one doesn't deal with fire stations, but the second one is for "Fire! Fire! Fire! Ben Hayes Relates Area Fire House History". Eastmain (talk • contribs) 19:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep it starts out ok, with a picture for each station and a small history. Then it's simply a "phone book" style listing. We need some context around why the stations are notable; either historic architecture or the like. Oaktree b (talk) 19:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Deletion is not the right reaction. This AfD process checks for WP:N / WP:GNG, which is established here with dozens of citations. This article meet's Wikipedia's inclusion criteria.

There are also complaints about the lack of citations and inappropriate format of citations. I sympathize with that, but also, formatting citations for this kind of content is a poor use of human labor. Realistically, no human is demanding these citations, because the only info that these citations provide is a claim of the existence of particular fire stations. Many of the citations here are behind a wall, but they are machine readable or bot verifiable, which is good enough considering that the claim of mere existence is so mundane.

I am going to issue my own take: every city in the world of population over 50,000 should have a Wikipedia article titled "Fire stations in X". If possible, we should use Wikipedia article writing bots to generate these articles in English, the local language, and a few other languages. Verifying them with machine-readable sources or primary sources is okay. The information in these articles should be cross-referenced to Wikimedia Commons for pictures through Wikidata, and then Wikidata should exchange info with OpenStreetMap so that project can give map data to Wikipedia and Wikipedia can provide pics and more info when available to the map. Beyond fire stations, we should also have articles like this for hospitals, police stations, public parks, and other places which are essential to register for Wikipedia:WikiProject Disaster management. I am not going to argue that every fire station or hospital is automatically notable, but I think that I am ready to say that we should expect city services are and that list articles like this seem like a scalable pattern for Wikipedia-style documentation of them.

Another opinion: for list articles like this, photos count as sources. The goal here is to establish that this city has fire stations. We do not need to go into detail. Our custom is to treat published text sources as meeting WP:V, even if they do things like poorly describe the architecture or say something like "the mayor was there for the opening". Sometimes for some claims, like the existence of a thing, a picture is the best reference or source or authority. These pics are great, and I think we should treat all the entries with a pic as verified.

For the entries with no pic, and with no citation at all, I think having a human simply point to a database or published list is enough verification for what this is. Bluerasberry (talk) 20:58, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as creator. Unfortunately nobody has the patience to allow me to finish formatting the references, and nobody has actually directly asked me to. Also, I do have photographs of most of these places I can upload, but scanning and uploading takes time and effort. When people don't appreciate the countless hours of work I put in, I have little incentive to put in more effort. $ɱ$ (talk) 21:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And for those who might not be familiar, NewsBank is a database of reputable newspapers. All bare URLs are to NewsBank's Columbus Dispatch archives. I always come back to fix these citations, but it takes time and patience. And automated tools like ReFill unfortunately can't be used to help. So it's a slow process. Asking for attention to any one article would be helpful, rather than an AfD. $ɱ$ (talk) 21:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Request Please fix the bare URLs, and in the future, please fix them in your sandbox space before adding them to the encyclopedia. Thank you. Cullen328 (talk) 21:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I will try my best, but in the meantime perhaps consider writing a draft addition to a policy or guideline and getting consensus for your opinion above. $ɱ$ (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if the citations all went to the local newspaper, per WP:AUD. You haven't made a case that the subject is notable (that there are fire stations in Columbus) nor does each and every station listed already discussed in a standalone article. The subject isn't notable. Pictures don't make the subject notable. Local coverage doesn't make it notable. That you started editing in 2009 doesn't make the subject notable. This isn't merely an argument about citation style. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:58, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Columbus Dispatch is the largest newspaper in Ohio, and covers most of the state. It's simply not a local paper. $ɱ$ (talk) 22:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nor does citation style make an article warrant an AfD. You didn't really provide any real explanation for the sources warranting deletion, nor even bother to provide an assessment of the references. Which is your whole argument. $ɱ$ (talk) 22:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article about the paper makes no such claims. Also, my clear deletion rationale is lack of notability, much as you try to reframe it. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never said the article was any good. Most of Wikipedia is crap, unfortunately. And your nomination might as well be a drive-by comment. There's no effort put in, and no detailed assessment of the notability. Simply you're confused because you can't access. Then Ask! $ɱ$ (talk) 22:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of ability to read a source does not mean (or indicate) a lack of notability. I'm sorry you have no access. That does not warrant whole days of effort to be wiped away. $ɱ$ (talk) 22:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Per above. FlutterDash344 (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you <3 $ɱ$ (talk) 22:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 :::*The [[The Columbus Dispatch|article about the paper]] makes no such claims. Also, my clear deletion rationale is lack of notability, much as you try to reframe it. <span class="nowrap" style="font-family:copperplate gothic light;">[[User:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">Chris Troutman</span>]] ([[User talk:Chris troutman|<span style="color:#345">talk</span>]])</span> 22:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 :::*:I never said the article was any good. Most of Wikipedia is crap, unfortunately. And your nomination might as well be a drive-by comment. There's no effort put in, and no detailed assessment of the notability. Simply you're confused because you can't access. Then Ask! [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 22:31, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
-:::*:Lack of ability to read a source does not indicate a lack of notability. I'm sorry you have no access. That does not warrant whole days of effort to be wiped away. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 22:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
+:::*:Lack of ability to read a source does not mean (or indicate) a lack of notability. I'm sorry you have no access. That does not warrant whole days of effort to be wiped away. [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 22:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * '''Keep''' Per above. ''[[User:FlutterDash344|<span style="color:yellow">Flutter</span><span style="color:#87CEEB">Dash</span><span style="color:#CBC3E3">344</span>]]'' ([[User talk:FlutterDash344|<span style="color:#680C07">'''''talk'''''</span>]]) 21:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 *:Thank you <3 [[User:Ɱ|<span style="text-shadow:#bbb 0.1em 0.1em 0.1em;" class="texhtml">'''ɱ'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ɱ|(talk)]] 22:08, 28 August 2023 (UTC)