Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/JWASM

JWASM

JWASM (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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Software product does not appear to be notable. My search failed to find any references apart from the product's primary website and various technical help fora. A previous PROD template was removed without providing any reliable third-party sources to establish notability. Much of the content also appears to duplicate the MASM article. Being "useful" does not satisfy the notability guidelines. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Please note that this is an discussion about the notability of a subject. Familiarise yourself with How to discuss an AfD before responding. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete or Redirect to MASM Comparison of assemblers, as nom. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The notability of JWasm is difficult to understand for non-assembler programmers. In a nutshell: Assembler is the last language that allows to produce very fast and compact code. Video viewers, for example, would be far too slow if programmed only in Basic or C or .Net. In recent years, the owner of the dominating Operating System has tried to keep programmers away from this "low level stuff", and to force them towards High Level Languages, notably .Net-based ones; the motivation is clearly economic, and has to do with the observation that bloated software needs faster hardware. Masm is about to be phased out. There is a small but dedicated community of free software developers who are more than happy that Jwasm has emerged as an alternative. If you want to have video viewers, animation etc that do not require the latest, best, and fastest PC on the market, then you will recognise the "notability" of JWasm. Remember that Mozilla was not so notable when it started challenging MS Internet Explorer... Jj2006 (talk) 10:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  Which is why it wouldn't have had a Wikipedia article then. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing no notability with less notability. Should we omit forty or so browsers listed in Template:Web browsers because they are less notable than the main ones?? You don't seem to have a leg to stand on here. -- spin^control 19:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing usefulness or future possible notability with notability. Unless you are able to provide adequate appropriate sources, you have no leg to stand on. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

In no sense. You have given no indication of lack of notability where it is essential. You have merely argued here that less notability is no notability at all. That is not an argument. You have already shown that there is notability. So the case should be closed and the notice removed. -- spin^control 20:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment It's strange that someone would want to delete this article about a product that is currently under development and maintenance, while there are other assemblers with their own articles that are no longer in development and therefore not able to produce software that will function as native to current operating systems. JWASM is a modern assembler available as freeware to use. That makes it notable to assembly programmers, for whom this page is most useful. And incidentally, JWASM draws 12,000 hits on Google.

This is a bad idea and I'd recommend that the deletion notice be removed ASAP. There was no discussion of the deletion proposal on the talk page. Calls for deletion that make no effort to discuss before the notice is slapped up must not be taken seriously.

OrangeDog, you still don't seem to understand the point of showing the unique conventions of a particular assembler. When you say, "Much of the content also appears to duplicate the MASM article", you don't seem to have looked closely at the subtle but necessary differences. If you cannot see the utility of such information, then you probably don't have much use for assembly programming. -- spin^control 00:41, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

This is the place to discuss the deletion. No prior discussion is necessary. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You have apparently already alienated an editor here and this stated non-consensus approach is guaranteed to alienate you more. -- spin^control 20:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Strong keep. This appeal to delete has no basis whatsoever. It meets none of the criteria in WP:BEFORE. -- spin^control 18:02, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  I did adhere to WP:BEFORE. If you have any sources establishing notability that I have missed, please provide them. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, you are making the claim of lack of notability. Therefore you need to make a case for your assertion. -- spin^control 19:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

My case is made at the top of this page. You need to prove the opposite. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

For the little that there was, I already have. Besides, referring to an issue is not making a case. You claim: "My search failed to find any references apart from the product's primary website and various technical help fora." Where do you expect to find the notability of an assembler except in the areas where people deal with assemblers? I'm sorry, the only case you've made is that it is notable where it counts.

You are supposed to have made a case, not suggest the possibility. Please consider the issue in more depth, thank you. -- spin^control 20:15, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The repeated premature tagging of this recently added article is neither well informed nor occurring within the guidelines of Wikipedia. In both instances the users who have nominated this page for deletion without any prior notification on the JWASM discussion page and apparently having even bothered to read the discussion page.

The suggestion to merge the JWASM page with the Microsoft Macro Assembler page is unsound, Microsoft, Sybase and Watcom are distinct commercial entities with different technical and corporate backgrounds and to include JWASM on the MASM page would mislead readers as to the identity of both assemblers. Note also that with the page up and readable that other updates have now been made to it to keep it up to date.

It is a mistake to assume that all assemblers are the same, notational differences, licencing differences, platform and hardware differences etc ... Implimentation of such assumptions if the editors do not have demonstrable experience with assemblers to correctly referencing technical data that applies to each different tool has the net effect that the quality of the Wikipedia article is seriously diminished and that the reputation of Wikipedia as a reliable source of technical data is placed under further pressure. Hutch48 (talk) 22:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Notification before starting an AfD is not required. I had read the discussion page (including your incivility there). It is also a mistake to assume that all assemblers are notable. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Your desire to delete this page is certainly not transparent. Why is it that after attempting to remove large amounts of the MASM article, you leave it to try to delete the JWASM article? I'd suggest that you assume some good faith here and think that those who've done the work of presenting the information have done so to fill a need. I await your case for lack of notability. As is, I'll be happy to remove the deletion notice ASAP as it is against the consensus. -- spin^control 19:52, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

My decision to nominate JWASM is completely independent of my decision to attempt to edit MASM. I simply found the JWASM article as it was linked from MASM. This is not the place to discuss the MASM article. As before, my case for lack of notability is presented at the top of this discussion, i.e. that no reliable independent sources can be found. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

We are not discussing the MASM article, but your change of tack to post a deletion notice on JWASM. As before you have no case. This is a specialist topic and you have shown that in specialist circles JWASM is notable. Would you post a deletion notice say on Endogenous Retroviruses because it is a specialist topic? I'd think not, and neither should you with JWASM. -- spin^control 20:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Endogenous retroviruses#References lists 11 academic journal citations and 1 news article, among others. That is why I would not nominate it for deletion. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:33, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

So your answer is no, you wouldn't delete it because it is a specialist topic. That however is what you are trying to do with JWASM. It's just that notability is measured differently from an academic topic. -- spin^control 20:42, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment @OrangeDog: The JWasm article is relavent and serves the programming community. JWasm provides an important alternative to MASM for those who need to avoid a variety of licensing issues. For example, if a programmer wishes to write an operating system or distribute code under GPL open source, an alternative to MASM is needed (refer to MS MASM license). Quote: "...the owner of the dominating Operating System has tried to keep programmers away from this "low level stuff", and to force them towards High Level Languages..." Nothing could be further from the truth, as Microsoft continues to distribute MASM and provide low-level coding ability for high-level languages. Quote: "Masm is about to be phased out." Please site sources to verify this statement. Perhaps it would be best if you left articles about programming to those who are knowledgeable in that field. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.219.214 (talk) 13:04, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

  Please address the question of notability by providing the necessary sources, not attacking the nominator. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:20, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment The use of assemblers and assembler programming generally is a specialised field and to make a viable and/or meaningful analysis of a field as specialised as assembler programming, the person making a value judgement by tagging a page of this type has acted outside the guidelines of Wikipedia and passed an unqualified value judgement on a topic they are not competent to comment on.
  1. Elen of the Roads tagged the article in under 12 hours of its creation while knowing nothing about the topic.
  2. Magioladitis tagged the article as an orphan with no knowledge of the field or what reference material was available.
  3. OrangeDog tagged the article for deletion without any form of consultation and with no known expertise in this field.

Citing the Wikipedia specifications for article deletion "For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." this in fact has not been the case with the three (3) users who have so far incorrectly tagged the JWASM article, it has been an act of first resort with no consultation, no discussion on the "Discussion" page for JWASM, no consensus with any other person of any known expertise and from users who have no demonstrated expertise in assembler programming.

In particular user OrangeDog has attempted to isolate the current author of JWASM from its historical origin as open source code owned under a Sybase licence where in fact Sybase is a well known software company who purchased the Watcom line of development tool some years ago and made the source code availoable under their own Open Source licence. The names Watcom and Sybase are a sufficient condition to establish notability for a tecynical target like an assembler and it is a mis-representation on the part of user OrangeDog to try and represent the JWASM assembler as a private single ownership work.

Citing again the Wikipedia specifications for article deletion, "If the article is about a specialized field, use the expert-subject tag with a specific WikiProject to attract editors knowledgeable about that field, who may have access to reliable sources not available online." This is fact has not been done by any of the three users who have so far tagged the page rendering it useless and unreadable.

It is reasonable to require users who place tags on new articles to actually bother to READ THE RULES and properly comply with them rather than simply slap labels on work that defaces it and renders it as technically useless. Form is no substitute for content and as long as Wikipedia allow non-competent people to tear around technical pages with automated software vandalising the content in violation of the rules, the quality of the articles will be diminished and leave Wikipedia open to further pressure in terms of reliability and relevance of content. Hutch48 (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment As it is only you here who are pushing for deletion, perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain your interpretation of notability with regard to the JWASM article. You see at the moment that a number of people disagree with you and the consensus is that this is sufficiently notable. For example, which third-party sources would you expect other than materials derived from the provider of the assembler?

Redirection of JWASM to MASM would naturally be inappropriate because there are notable differences between the two assemblers, as the Usage sections indicate. -- spin^control 19:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Third-party sources would include reviews and features in major computing-related publications, citations in news articles or academic journals, appearance in TV or radio documentaries, etc. See WP:GNG and WP:RS for more details. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 20:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

You are not answering my rhetorical question: "which third-party sources would you expect other than materials derived from the provider of the assembler?" Assembly language matters are not what one would expect in academic journals, TV or radio documentaries (!?), but you expect them in areas where people who deal with assembly languages congregate and you have shown that it is dealt with there. -- spin^control 20:35, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

GNU Compiler Collection includes two published book citations, one magazine and two news articles. Microsoft Visual Studio includes multiple citations of notable bloggers and 1843 Google News hits. Even MASM manages [1] and one relevant news hit. JWASM has none of these.

wikt:rhetorical question - obviously... OrangeDog (τ • ε) 21:09, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Obviously Microsoft and the Free Software Foundation both have the resources to have books published. So now you are arguing that organizations that muster finances are privileged on Wikipedia. This argument is one you can use against any other assembler package. The JWASM article is technical material of a specialist nature and you are not looking in the right places, such as assembly language forums. -- spin^control 01:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment I am here because I was notified in my talk page. I tagged the article as orphan since it has less than 3 incoming links based on criteria found in WP:ORPHAN. My tag was reverted by Hutch48 with a comment in article's talk page and later in my talk page writing "I have read you categories of contributions and it appears that programming is not among your expertise." Since the article had 2 incoming links at that time and the Orphanage Project gives priority to articles with no incoming links I lost interest in retagging the article or doing more on the case. Just to mention again the obvious: Tagging an article for needing editors' attention, it doesn't imply that it's going to be deleted. Usually tagging is there to help article to get improved. I personally have no opinion of whether we should delete the article or not. -- Magioladitis (talk) 19:49, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. No secondary source coverage to be found. I can therefore only conclude that it fails WP:GNG as it is. Will of course reconsider my comment if others can provide sources. Redirecting to MASM would be inappropriate, for reasons discussed above. decltype (talk) 20:00, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Comment RE: Comments by user decltype who I thank for a constructive addition to the discussion, the complete original source code for all versions of JWASM are cited in the introduction with reference to the authors page of the source being written in portable C and by the Open Source code being available at the authors site. As typical with Open Source code, the annotation is the source code and the derivation and further description is wholly solely and exhaustively contained in the authors source code. There may be a case for additional citation back to the source code but it risks making the page a lot harder to read and may place a requirement for a reader to have to learn portable C to properly understand the assembler notation.

In an area that has yet to be addressed on the page, the JWASM assembler is currently 64 bit capable in a number of platforms and to this extent it ceases to be MASM compatible as MASM is not targetted at any other environment apart from Microsoft Operating Systems. Also specific to the Windows environment ML64.EXE and JWASM deviate in terms of technical capacity and notation. While these updates need to be made to the JWASM page, while it is under threat of deletion it is not worth wasting the effort to further improve the page if it ends up being deleted and until its status is properly resolved there is little reason to improve the page.

Hutch48 (talk) 01:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Since someone has decided to drag me into this, I will add my opinion. I PRODded this article with "Notability not verified - please provide secondary references that support the notion that this widget meets Wikipedia notability standards." At that point, someone did what the creator should have done and added some references. Since I would expect this sort of topic to be notable only in a specialised field, and not make the front page of The Times, I decided to leave it be at that point. I followed the rules to the letter. It is not my fault that Hutch48 - who it appears is better placed to find sources for this article - decided not to add any references. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

• Strong keep. To address a number of issues raised here, firstly, Elen of the Roads was "dragged" into this because of having tagged the beginning of the article in under 12 hours of its creation. My extremely subdued response (I speak the Australian idiom) was in response to a direct breach of Wikipedia rules related to newly created articles as specified on the deletion page cited above. I note that user only commented in the "Discussion" page AFTER I made my comments there instead of the prior notification required under the rules. I would complain here that users who tear around slapping tags on technical pages at least READ THE RULES and make some comments FIRST in the "Discussion" page of a newly created article before rendering a page unreadable with inappropriate tagging.

I note that so far the originator of this latest attempt to delete the JWASM page OrangeDog has continued to avoid the obvious with this page in that it is Open Source software issued under a SyBase licence which alone is sufficient notability as the Watcom name purchased by Sybase and subsequently licenced as Open Source. Isolating the current maintainer/author of JWASM and attempting to represent JWASM as a private project by a single author is a misrepresentation of the facts. The externally published content of the Sybase Open Watcom licence makes this clear. Its Watcom predecessor WASM has been in existence since the early 1990s and JWASM is a direct upgrade/rewrite of WASM to modernise it and make it available for a wider range of platforms.

With the current status of the JWASM page being tagged for deletion after repeated graffiti on the page I would class the page as "DEAD IN THE WATER" and not worth the effort to continue to work on it even though I have about 20 years experience in writing the Microsoft dialect of x86 assembler and with MASSIVE RESOURCES behind me in hundreds of highly qualified and experienced members of the MASM forum coupled with a massive database of technical data in the forum ranging back over 5 years in the current incarnation of the forum, as long as this page and the Microsoft Macro Assembler page are subject to damage by users who have yet to demonstrate any form of expertise, it is a waste of effort to update technical pages that are subject to repeated damage of this type.

I note that the originator of this current deletion attempt OrangeDog has already tried to delete more than half of the content of the MASM page before another member reverted the page so I would suggest that his intent is clear by way of his own actions and the comments he has made on his own talk page in response to to my own questions about his actions, experience and intent.

To address a response from user OrangeDog in relation to notions of conflict of interest because other people in the past have linked to my web site and forum without my permission, I primarily work in Microsoft assembler and run the MASM forum to support x86 style assembler programming. I am not in any way connected with the production of the JWASM assembler and do not use it in my own code production but I do host such a critically important Open Source project at the MASM forum which has been used by the current maintainer to further develop JWASM and interact with its expanding user base and I build the JWASM project from its source code in Microsoft C on a release by release basis to stay up to date with its capacity in the Windows environment.

In accordance with the above mention Wikipedia rules on deletion, I would suggest that people who are not technically competent in this area restrain themselves in terms of damaging these technical pages and obtain the advice of an expert in x86 assembler programming who is both familiar and experience in using the Microsoft assembler in the Windows environment and other experts who are familiar with writing Intel notation x86 assembler for the Linux, BSD and x86 MAC environments. This takes the decision making out of the hands of amateurs and places it where technical articles of this type should be, in the hands of people who actually know enough about it.

Hutch48 (talk) 00:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Issues of notability require a reasonable search for references made in good faith according to Wikipedia policy. While the original person who tagged the JWASM article for deletion claims to have done so, it appears not to have been done within the guidelines of Wikipedia but to make the claim that the JWASM project is not notable. Here is a quick smattering of the notability and support for JWASM at an international level. A simple Google search makes the evidence for notability overwhelming. Note multilingual sites with reviews and multiple download sources for JWASM for both the Windows and Linux environments.

There are in fact many many more available in multiple languages.

http://www.freedos.org/cgi-bin/lsm.cgi?mode=lsm&lsm=devel/jwasm.lsm
http://ko.sourceforge.jp/projects/sfnet_jwasm/
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/devel/asm/jwasm/
http://www.rcedir.com/index.php?list=latest
http://www.downloadplex.com/tags/jwasm/Page-1-0-0-0-0.html
https://hermes.opensuse.org/messages/2399877
http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Wasm
http://www.retrovicio.com/programas/cutemouse
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1327211
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Assembly/x86/Assemblers_and_Linkers/
http://www.haker.com.pl/showthread.php?p=123376
http://slashdot.jp/softwaremap.pl?id=325
http://groups.google.am/group/openwatcom.users.c_cpp/browse_thread/thread/bf68e4bfdc4b7a04

Hutch48 (talk) 03:54, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Strong keep. It is odd to see, in Wikipedia, the argument that notability has to be proven by citing print media and/or academic journals. Programming was among the first disciplines that abandoned print media. I have retyped code myself in early 1980's from computer journal pages, and it was not fun. So not surprisingly, independent references for programming languages are nowadays dedicated software forums - and there are plenty which point to JWasm. The reason is that >90% of the existing codebase are written in MASM syntax, and assembly coders are desperately looking for an alternative assembler, because MASM itself is slowly being abandoned by its owner. Besides, JWasm is the only notable legal software for Linux assembly. One more reason to keep this article.Jj2006 (talk) 08:56, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: can I again reiterate that I breached no rules when I new page patrolled that article. Only the fact that it was about the software and not the creator/distributor stopped it being eligible for speedy deletion under category A7, as it made absolutely no assertion of significance at that point. PRODding the article was an entirely reasonable response, and I request that Hutch48 withdraw his continued bad faith assertion. It is not my fault that Hutch48 did not create the article in accordance with the Wikipedia 5 Pillars, particularly verifiability. Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Elen of the Roads. Don't worry. I'm sure you understand the situation where someone is in the middle of creative activity and another comes along and apparently puts the damper on it. You were following the rules. But when someone creates an article, it is often saved in an intermediate form in order to get the article started. Once started you can go back and set it straight. If you come along and mark the fresh article as a candidate for deletion when the article hasn't been allowed to reach the editor's desired form, you'll probably stimulate a reaction similar to the one you got. What you see is not bad faith. It's a very reasonable reaction of someone relatively new to Wiki-dom. I'd recommend that you wait next time before marking an article for deletion: less than a day doesn't allow the editor to get the article up to scratch. As to verifiability, all the information is available in the annotated materials supplied with the assembler package. It's just rather hard to cite. But you can verify it yourself working through those materials. It's all there. It's good to have people who care about what gets posted on Wiki. We need more people like you. I'd just like to defuse the situation. I don't think you are being attacked and there is no bad faith. It would be good though for Hutch48 to clarify this. -- spin^control 12:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi spin. I appreciate your attempts to mediate here, and I do understand that Hutch48 is upset that his work is not being appreciated. However, I don't think that Hutch48 understands Wikipedia's notability policy. None of the sources he has provided above(most of which I found) indicate that the topic is notable in Wikipedia terms. I may not work in an area which uses this gadget but I can perfectly well understand the difference between a mention in a bunch of listings that say this is a free clone of some propriatory product, and a couple of sources that say "new breakthrough" "significant development" "has become the product of choice for" or similar indications of notability. I check all unsourced articles when I page patrol, and if I can find a source that gives even some evidence of notability I add it. I would also add that if an article is likely to take some time to compile, creating it in a sandbox is probably the correct way to do it. I would also add that as Wikipedia is not a How To manual, finding reliable sources would have been a better use of time that downloading and evaluating the software, something that comes quite close to being original research. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads, while I finally have no deference towards you, I make no apology for having reacted to your original tagging of a new article under 12 hours after it was created as I consider your actions unreasonable within that time frame. The article you tagged took the time to download the JWASM software, build it with the appropriate software, put it through objective testing, trawl through the auhors home page and reference material, detailed search of Wikipedia for compatible articles and then the time to write the article. I came back under 12 hours the next day to do some more work on the article only to find your notice slapped on the page to delete it.

While I don't live in Wikipedia trawling articles to delete I do in fact read the policy of Wikipedia carefully and here specifically the Wikipedia policy as stated on the page with the heading "Wikipedia:Notability" at URL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GNG#General_notability_guideline

In particular I quote the following Wikipedia policy.

Subheading -- Articles not satisfying the notability guidelines

Although articles should demonstrate the notability of their topics, and articles on topics that do not meet this criterion are generally deleted, it is important to consider not only whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be. Remember that all Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article can be notable if such sources exist even if they have not been added at present. Merely asserting that such sources exist is seldom persuasive, especially as time passes and actual proof does not surface. If it is likely that significant coverage in independent sources can be found for a topic, deletion due to lack of notability is inappropriate unless active effort has been made to find these sources. For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort.

(a) it is important to consider not only whether notability is established by the article, but whether it readily could be.
(b) Remember that all Wikipedia articles are not a final draft, and an article can be notable if such sources exist even if they have not been added at present.
(c) For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort.

Now I remind you that this IS WIKIPEDIA POLICY I can reasonably expect that editors act in good faith and comply with that stated policy. You have not addressed (a) in terms of whether the article at less than 12 hours old was able to satisfy the notability guidelines, (b) that it was clear from the editing date that the article had just been created and was in early draft form and (c) you have tagged the article as a FIRST RESORT, not the Wikipedia policy of last resort. Acting in good faith is double ended and while I am satisfied that you have not intended the tagging with any form of malice, I also suggest at the best that you were careless in tagging an article that was less than 12 hours old and did not address the published Wikipedia guidelines quoted above.

Hutch48 (talk) 14:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Can we stop discussing other user's imagined intentions or conduct, or the content of other articles. This is a deletion discussion about JWASM, and should be dedicated to discussing whether there are sufficient sources to establish the notability of JWASM (not its producers, or usefulness, or extent of use, or the content of the article) and thus whether it is a suitable subject for a standalone article. "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" does not include technical information on how to use the product. The final decision will be made by an uninvolved (and likely non-computer-expert) administrator based on quality, not quantity, of arguments - WP:GNG, WP:AGF, WP:AADD, WP:TLDR. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 12:48, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

OrangeDog, the reason why statements about your intention are involved is not based on imagination but what you have both said and done. Making reference to the content of your own talk page you cited criteria that was incorrect about the MASM page and after trying to negotiate with you, you deleted over half of the MASM page and further threatened to delete more of it. After another user restored the page you then shifted to the JWASM page and with no consultation whatsoever or any attept at establishing the required consensus you tagged the article for deletion which lead to this page of discussion.

You have been unwilling to address the overwhelming notability issues I have raised in relation to Sybase, its owndership of the Watcom name and code base or the range of support and reference available with a simple Google search and it would appear that you are relying on ignoring the notability of an old and well know Watcom code base and are trying to have this page deleted by avoiding the available information. SHifting the Open Watcom licenced code to the status of a single individual may achieve the effect you want to achieve but it is not based on fact or the legal ownership of the Watcom code base.

Hutch48 (talk) 14:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Hutch48 (talk) 14:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per textwalling from supporters. Look, guys, if you want this kept, all you have to do is find and include non-trivial, reliable, third party sources. I see there's more arguments about notability here than effort has been made to source the article--always a bad sign. I've tagged the article for rescue; maybe someone can come to your aid here. OrangeDog has a perfectly reasonable nomination for a software product that doesn't tell me why this assembler is notable (pedantic and irrelevant explanations of what assemblers are aside). Jclemens (talk) 16:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete. Existing and being useful doesn't make something notable. Ghits don't make it notable. Future usefulness doesn't make it notable. As for the complaining about "it was only 12 hours".....Sources that demonstrate the notability should have been there when the article was written. The fact that they weren't demonstrates that the author didn't do his job. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Because this isn't very hard: there's no notability. As one of the proponents inadvertently argued somewhere in this giant wall of text, maybe someday this will be notable. But it isn't now. The fact that code exists, or that assembly is important isn't really relevant. Bfigura ^(talk) 16:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Folks, it would seem that the intent here is clear, feel free to delete this article, even though it took me a reasonable amount of time to research it, test the data for reliability, check the links for relevance and bother to write the article. As it is evident that no technical expertise is going to be exercised here so it is best left to the people who are not willing to write a technical article of this type. Forget the legal ownership of the Watcom code base by Sybase or the thousands of hits that JASM generates on Google, the criterion of notability being put in place here is not within published Wikipedia guidelines as referenced above so it should have a familiar feel to people who are not willing to add content of this type to improve Wikipedia.

I would like to thank user Jclemens for having made a constructive retagging the page as rescuable but with the demonstrated disregard for published Wikipedia policy and the rush to delete this page I doubt that it will succeed.

Be sure of this much, if the work I have done to put this page up so it can be added to and improved is wasted, I will never re-create it again.

Regards,

Hutch48 (talk) 16:42, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - Fails WP:N. <>Multi‑Xfer<> (talk) 19:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - Not notable by Wikipedia's standards. This isn't to cast doubt on the merits of the software itself, but by the guidelines we use on Wikipedia to judge the notability of the topic this article fails. Significant coverage in more than one independent reliable source is what is used to show notability, and those asking for the article to be kept have demonstrated themselves that this isn't available. -- Atama頭 19:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:GNG, and the textwall supporters don't provide ANY clue as to notability, only WHY the article should be kept.   ArcAngel   (talk) (review) 20:52, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Not sure but I am more on the delete side. Article lacks secondary sources. In the version I am reading right now all references are from its official website plus 2 that are tagged with "not in citation given". The links given above just indicate that the assembler exists but the existence alone is not a reason to keep in Wikipedia. The article must be covered and probably reviewed by trusted third parties. The links provided don't fulfill this but they seem to me more like that one source copied the other or that just one user or a few tried the assembler and just added info about it in some forums. -- Magioladitis (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
• Strong delete. The textdumps by supporters do not help their cause, but the main issue is that the subject is not notable, and there is a distinct lack of reliable, third-party sources. UnitAnode 23:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• • • 'DELETE'. I don't honestly care about the software or why it is useful. As a wiki editor I care about the article meeting the guidelines laid out for ALL articles here at Wikipedia. For "this" article I want to know where are the trade magazine articles (like "PC Gamer" if this was a computer game), news articles (like a local/state-wide paper, or some national coverage), book coverage (like a book dedicated to just this software or a chapter in a book about this software) or even academic journals?

Where is the significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the software? Show me sources, independent from the source code, that have given significant print coverage to this software's notability. If this was notable, where are the books on this software from publishers like O'Reilly Media? If this is a specialist software there must be many books on how to program in this language for those just starting out. There must be some major coverage by specialist magazines or maybe a special TV show on G4? No? Then it fails wiki's standards, but that doesn't take away from the software itself. --Brian_{(view my history)}/^{(How am I doing?)} 05:05, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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Notability

I have asked the person responsible for this deletion notice to make a case for lack of notability. OrangeDog has failed to do so. He merely refers to the issue and states his inability to look in the appropriate places for interest and importance of the software which is the topic of the article. This is clearly specialist material and a lot of Wiki contains specialist material. We don't go around deleting things merely because they are of interest to a very specific audience.

As I pointed out earlier, JWASM gets 12000 Google hits from various countries around the world. It's being mentioned in assembler fora. In the field of assembly programming it is obviously notable. But the sort of notability that has been evinced by the deletion proponent is not the sort that he can expect in this field. Assembly language is not something that run of the mill programmers ever use, so books don't often get published in the area. He cannot be serious mentioning coverage on radio or TV. Claims of notability or the lack thereof need to be established in the appropriate circles and the deletion proponent has failed to do so.

Sadly I think OrangeDog is wasting everyone's time because he has not made the effort to establish the notability issue. He has merely shown his lack of interest in it. He has not established his case from the assembler language community out of which it needs to be made. -- spin^control 18:13, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You've got it backwards. Articles which are challenged must demonstrate notability to remain un-deleted--the burden of proof isn't on those arguing for deletion. If the article has multiple independent RS it's kept; if it doesn't, it's deleted. The point of the AfD discussion it to ascertain whether the sources provided, if any, are sufficient. Jclemens (talk) 18:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Notability in terms of the assembler community has been demonstrated here. I've got nothing backwards. This is a specialist area and to make cogent comments one is supposed to be familiar with it. I've seen no-one here advocating deletion show any familiarity with the assembler community and its unique situation. That's why the issue of notability is being misapplied here. This is not a scientific community, so you won't get journal articles. This is not a popular programming area so you won't get books. It's a dirty hands on working community that is left to its own resources and the denial of support for the community because it doesn't fit neatly into expectations goes against the Wiki spirit. The notability issue as presented for this deletion case is a failure. -- spin^control 18:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Since I'm not an expert, nor do I claim to be, could you perhaps point to which of those 12k google hits are sources that discuss the subject in a non-trivial manner? If we can then add them to the article, this can be closed in short order. I'm well aware that in certain disciplines, sourcing isn't straightforward. However, if your claim is that this subject has never been covered in any sort of book, academic paper, or reputable web publication, then why does it matter how many google hits there are? If it's popular in forums, but there haven't been any reliable sources discussing this in detail, then this might seem to be a case of future popularity. (Also, at present, your comment seems to be asking that OrangeDog prove a negative in an AfD. Am I misreading you?) -- Bfigura ^(talk) 18:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

JWASM is in wide use in the assembler community now. It's not about future popularity. The 12k hits show that a software package for a very restricted field is being dealt with all around the world. The assembler community is a very practical one. Documentation is usually only supplied in code examples that come with the package. The notion of notability needs to be applied in the appropriate context and one's expectations of the signs of notability need to consider that context. -- spin^control 18:50, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

So your argument is not that the subject is notable as defined by WP:N, but rather that the definition in WP:N shouldn't strictly apply since the subject is popular within its community? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this sounds to be similar to what was proposed in Wikipedia:Software_notability. Since that proposal failed, I'm still going to ask you to point to a few reliable sources that discuss the subject in a non-trivial fashion. (I don't see any that jump out as reliable sources, but since I'm not an expert in the field, that's not entirely meaningful). -- Bfigura ^(talk) 18:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

No, my argument is that the notion of notability is not being considered reasonably. The issue is not simply one of counting signs from usual sources. You won't get them because it is inappropriate. Specialist material can easily be found on Wikipedia. Look for example at the article for Gutians: though this is a scholarly subject it is rather obscure. So obscurity is not an issue of notability. The Gutians are well-known in the specialist field of Assyriology. JWASM is also known in its specialist field. It's just that the means of demonstrating the fact is different. Notability is the same in both cases. -- spin^control 19:20, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Gutians cites a number of books and academic journals in its references, thus satisfying WP:GNG. That is why it has not been deleted. WP:Other stuff exists. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 19:28, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You have just proven my issue with your attempted use of notability. -- spin^control 19:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Now you've totally lost me. For the Gutians, you can find easily (if you have access to the proper books and journals, otherwise google books/scholar gives excerpts) reliable references that would discuss the subject in a non-trivial way. Are they obscure? Specialist, maybe, but they're still clearly reliable sources. Please point to reliable sources that do the same for this subject. Since we seem to be going around in circles here, I'll try to be more on-point: if your reply hinges on the words "popular" or "12k google hits" you don't understand what I mean when I'm talking about notability. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 19:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but did you read what I actually said? Especially: "It's just that the means of demonstrating the fact is different." I didn't say that that there were no scholarly references dragged out for the article. If you look into the issue you'll find that the actual references are very paltry. However, the Gutians are important in their field, a field that has standard means of displaying notability. However, in the practical world of assembly language programming the means of displaying notability is very different. You are not address this issue. You are just plowing on not dealing with notability appropriately in its specialist field. -- spin^control 19:43, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, in fact I did. Atama sums the isssue well, in his reply below. You don't want us to judge the subject by the WP:GNG or anything in WP:N. Too bad. If you don't like policy, you should try and form a consensus to change it. However, that was recently tried and failed. Just because you don't like the criteria doesn't constitute an argument against us applying them. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 19:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

See below regarding WP:GNG. -- spin^control 19:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment: Damn, I was going to tell Doktorspin that he has the notability thing backwards, but everyone beat me to it.Niteshift36 (talk) 19:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point of notability, as has the deletion proponent, OrangeDog. This can be seen in the inappropriate standards to measure it. -- spin^control 19:26, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Would the non-specialists please tell me what they would expect as notability in the assembly language programming community? I understand what you expect in scholarly communities, but not in the relevant field. People so far haven't shown any familiarity in the field. However, they want to remove an article which isn't self promotion or publicity, but which has a relevant interest base in a specialist field.

Is it that people want to discriminate against the assembly programmers by eliminating material that can be of help to these programmers? -- spin^control 19:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you can make your point by adding one big comment instead of small comments under everyone's opinion. Friendly, Magioladitis (talk) 20:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:GNG

Let's look at WP:GNG ("If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article."):

1. Significant coverage: do you doubt that the article is significant coverage?

2. Reliable: you are free to check the annotated source code for the reliability of the material as the editor has done.

3. Sources: We have to go to where the information for the material comes from, ie the annotated examples.

4. Independent of the subject: the annotated software is our source of the useful knowledge on the package.

5. presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria: an independent software package in use among a wide specialist community. Shouldn't it be dealt with?

Where is your beef with WP:GNG? What am I missing regarding your attempt to use notability? -- spin^control 19:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

My issue is that you're completely misunderstanding what the GNG means and what it applies to:

1. To quote the GNG: "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material". It has nothing to do with the content of the wikipedia article or the fact there are many google hits.
2. You're confusing reliable sources with primary sources.
3. You still haven't pointed to any reliable secondary sources.
4. Again, this refers to the references, not the article or wikipedia editor.
5. This means that if you met the above 4 points, the subject might be notable, but isn't necessarily. Quoting again: "significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion".

I'm not sure how I can be more clear: please point to 2 or 3 reliable references that discuss this in a substantial fashion. Otherwise, you're just arguing against WP:N being applied, which doesn't help you, or anyone else. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 20:32, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You are starting to think of what notability would be for this community. Discussion is not frequent. People are just trying to use it. However, you do get descriptive mentions here and here, while a Copenhagen academic recommends it in this pdf book chapter. You'll find substantial discussion here, but it does feature the package maintainer. I still believe the widespread availability in several countries including Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and Thai sites (as the Google hits indicate) is a reasonable sign of notability in this specialist field. -- spin^control 21:51, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Barkeepers Friend is available in several countries - that doesn't mean Wikipedia has an article on it. The book has possibilities, but who is this chap and is the book significant?Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure it matters - it's a two sentence reference. And the rest of the sources are forums and wiki's, which don't usually count as reliable sources. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 22:04, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

So you can see that the issue of what is notability in this context is more complex than you had considered. People are using it as the worldwide distribution indicates, but you have no traditional way of tapping into the circuit. Nevertheless, the Wiki article would be a helpful introduction to anyone considering the package, which I doubt that you can deny. -- spin^control 22:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't make any difference how helpful it would be - unless it meets notability it won't be here. If there are respected sites within the 'community' where there are - for example - reviews of the product, or comparisons of it to other products, then a compromise might be possible. But all you've turned up so far is one line confirmation that it exists. It seems like you and Hutch are trying to write the first detailed appraisal of the product - in which case, Wikipedia is the wrong place for it. Elen of the Roads (talk) 22:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You're not dealing with meaningful notability in the specific context. What I've seen is a matter of non-experts trying to project their own notability needs onto those of the assembly language community, which is as I have said inappropriate. The only reviews for this sort of product is that people use it. If it is found to work on a trial and error basis then they continue to use it, as can be seen in the Google hits. I have written nothing for the JWASM article and Hutch48 hasn't written an appraisal of the package, but an introduction to it, as per most Wiki software product articles. Agner Fog in the pdf I cited gave a brief appraisal and it was positive. -- spin^control 22:57, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you're dealing with non-experts projecting Wikipedia notability needs, because this is Wikipedia. Perhaps there's a specialist Wiki out there that caters to such material that would be a more appropriate place for this info? In any case, because this is Wikipedia, you need to appeal to Wikipedia's standards, not your own or those of the assembly language community. We do have certain notability requirements for particular subjects that might show notability aside from what our general notability guideline has, see WP:BIO for some examples that pertain to biographical articles. There are no such requirements for software, however, so your only appeal is the general notability guide and per that guideline this article falls short. -- Atama頭 23:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem not to be dealing with the argument. Wiki has no problem with specialist material, as I've pointed out with articles about Endogenous Retroviruses and Gutians. The problem comes with your expectations as to notability. You are happy enough to have an expert cite expert journal material in the specialist field of retroviruses or obscure third millennium BCE people on the margins of Assyria, but in a situation where the notability cannot be measured through academic journal references (not appropriate), you need to consider other means of gauging notability that is meaningful in the specialist field. -- spin^control 00:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Afd isn't the venue for that discussion, but it is certainly a discussion you can have. If you want new notability guidelines for software, it could be worth starting the discussion with the software project to see what they might possibly be in the future. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't buy the argument from Doktorspin, because I look at comparison of assemblers and listed there are a number of assemblers that are properly backed up with independent published sources. If our notability criteria were such that articles about assemblers could never be included because we look for the wrong kind of sources, I might be swayed. But you're asking for an exception to be made for a particular subject, to allow it to be included. I don't see the need. I'm not opposed to software having some extra criteria outside of the general notability requirements, but as Elen stated this isn't the place for that debate. -- Atama頭 01:07, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

You obviously haven't looked closely at the material. I'm sorry you are mistaken about a number of assemblers with your claim that they "are properly backed up with independent published sources". If I agreed with the views expressed here, I would mark most of them as up for deletion. For example we must exclude all Microsoft sources from being used on the MASM page and of course we remove Hutch48 source materials and Randall Hyde another member of the same forum as Hutch48 and we say goodbye to the MASM article. Yasm goes for total lack of 3rd party sources as is the case for High Level Assembler. A close look at NASM and it's shot as well. POASM gone. TCCASM gone. You are opening up a very slippery slope which could destroy this whole area in Wikipedia. A lot more stuff would have to go, because of inappropriate criteria for notability. You could decimate the whole programming sector. Hutch48 seems to have left the discussion. You non-experts have driven away your only expert editor in the field. You've all done Wiki a disservice. This is because of an inappropriate application of notability. -- spin^control 01:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Look, I agree that proving notability for obscure software is hard, and probably harder than writing articles about obscure butterflies. However, this AfD isn't really the best place to complain about that: doing so is unlikely to bring people to your side. If you think it's a big enough problem, propose a solution in the right place. -- Bfigura ^(talk) 02:36, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

This is not obscure software: it's being distributed around the world. It's just obscure to you. If JWASM weren't a topic of the MASM forum, but merely of the upper year at Karlsruhr Hochschule, then you could talk of a lack of notability. Your application of notability is wrong, not the idea of notability itself. Should I now mark MASM for deletion to watch your reactions? I can do that. Then you can be good and follow suit with many of the other software articles. -- spin^control 03:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 03:38, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't try to quote rules to justify poorly thought out decisions. The precedent here needs to be understood. Arbitrary actions have consequences that can lead to folly. If one is not prepared to be either knowledgeable or coherent, one shouldn't meddle in Wiki affairs. -- spin^control 04:24, 27 January 2010 (UTC)