Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Northern Artsakh (4th nomination)

Northern Artsakh

AfDs for this article:

• Articles for deletion/Northern Artsakh
• Articles for deletion/Northern Artsakh (2nd nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Northern Artsakh (4th nomination)
• Articles for deletion/Northern Artsakh 2

Northern Artsakh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)

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This article survived 3 AFDs, but still remains nothing but original research. It has only one direct reference, Samvel Karapetian, which is a nationalist author from Armenia. Even if we consider the topic of this article to be a nationalist concept existing in Armenia, one source is not sufficient to establish notability. All the info contained in the article is WP:SYNTH, i.e. the creators took verifiable info from reliable sources that never mention "Northern Artsakh" and included it in the article to make it look as if all those sources describe this alleged historical region, which they don't. For example, August von Haxthausen never uses the term, but he is quoted nonetheless. The same with statistics. None of them relate to "Northern Artsakh", those are just statistics from various Soviet administrative units, and the USSR never had any administrative division or geographic or political concept called "Northern Artsakh". The map is also an original research, it does not come from any reliable source and represents the idea of the creator. It is time for the community to make the final decision about this OR article. Grandmaster 05:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Also, looking into the history of the article, there appeared to be a consensus at talk that this article be merged into some other article, even though the opinions differed to which one exactly. [1] But once the article was merged, the merge was reverted: [2], and subsequent edit war with involvement of anon IPs and one registered user resulted in the article remaining. And looking at the last AfD, which I missed, it looks like the editors commenting there mixed mentions of northern Artsakh (i.e. northern part of the region called Artsakh) in some literature with the alleged geopolitical notion of "Northern Artsakh", the latter meant to include large territories beyond the region of Artsakh/Karabakh, such as Ganja, Gazakh, etc, up to the border of Azerbaijan with Georgia. Grandmaster 06:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Azerbaijan-related deletion discussions. ★☆ DUCKISJAMMMY☆★ 16:39, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

This is Artsakh (in green) up to the 9th century. This map clearly shows that its historical borders.

• Keep First of all, the region was called Artsakh long before Turkic tribes appeared in the region and called it Karabakh. The Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast borders do not have anything to do with historical Artsakh's borders, look at the map on the right.

Yes, I do agree that the term Northern Artsakh is relatively new, but I can't agree that Samvel Karapetyan's 2004 book is the only source on that topic.

Here are two articles from newspaper Yerkir from 1991 that refer to the region (especially Shahumyan) as Northern Artsakh:

• http://ankakhutyun.am/archives/1800
• http://ankakhutyun.am/archives/1796

Also, isn't Western Azerbaijan (political concept) the same? I will agree to delete this article, only if that article would be deleted as well.

Before calling S. Karapetyan a nationalist, please read more of your president's speeches, for example the one saying our main enemies are Armenians of the world, which sounds fascist to me personally as an Armenian.--Yerevanci (talk) 17:19, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yerkir is not a third-party source either. Parishan (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

When did I say it's third-party source? The problem here is not neutrality, but the term which is used by Armenians to describe the region. See the deference? This article clearly states that Northern Artsakh is a a geopolitical concept used in the Republic of Armenia to refer the region in north-western Azerbaijan.--Yerevanci (talk) 19:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Western Azerbaijan (political concept) and Greater Armenia (political concept) are notable political concepts, because they are supported by notable politicians in respective countries. As for the political concept called Northern Artsakh, I don't see any significant political party or movement supporting it, and no proof of its existence as an actual political concept. It is only promoted by one scholar in Armenia, and therefore is a very marginal view. The newspapers are not in English, and we cannot verify what they say, but then again, assuming that they use the combination of words "Northern Artsakh", that is still not enough to establish notability. Grandmaster 19:08, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's not my problem that you can't read Armenian. It's 2012 out. You can use online translators.

And what is Western Azerbaijan based on? On some dictator's speech to his servants? That's what it seems to me.

Above you said the following: one of them relate to "Northern Artsakh", those are just statistics from various Soviet administrative units, and the USSR never had any administrative division or geographic or political concept called "Northern Artsakh".

And was Western Azerbaijan ever used during Soviet era? No. Isn't it original research as well? Isn't this double standard? --Yerevanci (talk) 19:20, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

If a notable politician such as the country leader uses the concept, then it proves its notability. Which well known politician uses "Northern Artsakh" as a political concept? Western Azerbaijan may contain original research, but it does not excuse the OR in this article. See WP:OTHERSTUFF. Grandmaster 19:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not bringing that up as an excuse. I'm saying that if you delete this article, I don't see any reason why you should keep the other one. Just because Aliyev said that Armenia's territory is historically Turkic doesn't give you permission to create an article and fill it with biased information.--Yerevanci (talk) 19:55, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Nominate that article for deletion, if you are convinced that it should not exist. Greater Armenia (political concept) also presents a biased point of view, but since it is supported by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, it is notable for an article. Grandmaster 20:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You know what? Why am I even discussing something with some Azeri, whose soldiers kill my compatriots on the border and his fascist leader considers my nations his enemy. Good luck my lovely neighbor, have fun!--Yerevanci (talk) 20:29, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Delete. It is curious how articles like this come to be created when there is absolutely no basis to it, not to mention the POV nature of the single relevant source used. Even with the minor and rather questionable evidence presented, it is not clear as to when and how exactly this entity was monolithic or existed outside of its surrounding. The article makes references to the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, neither of which controlled a region with such a name. The rest of the article are just facts about eight separate administrative units of Azerbaijan, again without any proof as to why they should be groupped in this article. One might as well group and report on Switzerland, Austria and Liechtenstein in one article and call it 'Northern Italy'. Parishan (talk) 18:49, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Super, Strong, Huge, Mega, Giant, Keep Article is sourced and is about a term that is used in the Republic of Armenia. It has been kept 3 times and will be kept again. Azerbaijani editors need to get over their butthurt and get back to their Eurovision parties. VartanM (talk) 21:46, 25 June 2012 (UTC)