Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Crusading movement/archive1

Crusading movement

Crusading movement (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 9 May 2024, 17:11 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Crusading movement/archive1

Nominator(s): Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

This article is about the ideology and institutions associated with crusading. Reviewers have suggested that to keep in on topic the MILHIST should be kept to a minimum - this is largely covered in the Crusades in any case. That article doesn't have the space to cover this subject in detail. It has just been through an exhaustive A-Class Review and passed GAR 9 months ago. So it should be in good shape. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Airship

I thought I had reviewed this article a long time ago, and I was right. I am glad to see from the nomination statement that the approach I suggested over two years ago, of cutting the majority of military history details, was followed. Back then, the article looked like this; the improvement is very evident, so well done. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:38, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

It was good advice, addressed the scope and focus issues it once had. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

As always, these are suggestions, not demands; feel free to refuse with justification.

General comments

• The structure needs another look. Why are the "Knights and chivalry" down to "Perception of Muslims" subsections under "Evolution"? These are very definitely "Major themes" or "Major elements" and should be sectioned as such.
  • MOS:HEADINGS: subsection headings should not have links in them.

 Done—Taken this one. This is restoring the structure to what it was prior to GAR, changed on a recommendation. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Why so few images? This is one of the most well-represented historical eras in terms of images/diagrams/maps. It seems criminal not to use some of them for illustrative purposes (don't go overboard either).
• I disagree with Jens below that "Birth" should be renamed "First Crusade", as it is well established in scholarship that the movement began earlier. I also disagree that "main articles" are necessary for the century subsections, which should not be taken as subtopics of individual crusades. I do however concur with him on the length of the 13th century subsection (not helped by its complete lack of images to distract the eye from paragraphs upon paragraphs).
• I believe that the last time I looked at this article, I felt that there was substantial close paraphrasing. I do hope that issue has been adequately looked at and resolved—because that of course is a reviewing dealbreaker.
  • I remember, this has been rewritten repeatedly since then so I am expecting/hoping this is no longer an issue. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:24, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
• This article likes its simple lists—I count eight. I think most of them are fine, but feel, per MOS:EMBED, that the last three (relating to Gregory IX and Pius II) might be better suited as prose.

More specific comments to follow later. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:01, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

• I think that I also raised the question of how to tell whether paragraphs sourced entirely or near-entirely to entries in a general crusade encyclopedia were WP:DUE. With that in mind, could you please justify how the following paragraphs are WP:DUE and "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature":
  • In "12th century", beginning with "From the end of the century..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "Crusade providentialism was intricately linked..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "For recruitment purposes, popes initiated..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "From around 1225 to 1500..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "Part of the tradition of outbreaks of popular crusading..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "There is evidence of early criticism of crusading..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "Remediation included ceremonial marches..."
  • In "13th century", beginning with "At the end of the 13th century..."
  • In "14th century", beginning with "There were more than twenty treatises..."
  • In "15th century", beginning with "The Venetian Gabriel Condulmaro succeeded..."
  • In "15th century", beginning with "The humanist Enea Silvio Piccolomini became..."
  • In "15th century", beginning with "Rodrigo Borja, who became Pope Alexander VI in 1492..."
  • In "Historiography", beginning with "The Byzantines held a negative view of holy war..."
• Thank you. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

UC

This is a big one, but looks fascinating. I'll try to chip in at some point. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Jens

I remember I have reviewed this one a long time ago. I want to give some drive-by comments for now; I am not sure if I can commit to a full review. I have concerns about the structure of the "Evolution" section:

• For a reader that looks at the article for the first time, the sub-headings seem confusing or random: You have "Knights and chivalry", "Military orders" and so on, and then, all of a sudden, list the separate centuries. So the first four sections do not seem to express a chronological order, but the remainder do, which is not ideal. Maybe it would make sense to move the first four sections to the "Background" sections, because they cover the starting conditions before the crusades?

 Done—As above, I have taken this restoring the structure to what is was prior to GAR. Seems like it was an unpopular change. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• The heading "Birth" is not particularly obvious. That could mean many things. I suggest to rename into "First crusade".

 Done—removed entirely as part of the restructuring above. Does this work? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• The "century" sections are too long. Any chance to cut them down?
• At the very least, the "century" sections should have sub-headings to break-up the wall of text. In particular the "13th century" is way too long.
• It would help to have "Main articles:" indicated for the "century" sections.
• The "Dennis, Gorge T. (2001)" citation has an oversized "access required" icon. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Image review

• Some images are missing alt text

• File:SCONTRO_A_NABLUS_-_AFFRESCHI_CONTROFACCIATA_S._BEVIGNATE.JPG is incorrectly tagged. Ditto File:Fragment_of_the_Cairo_Genizah_-_The_Passover_Haggadah,_page_1_of_4.png

• File:Gestorum_Rhodie_obsidionis_commentarii_-_BNF_Lat6067_f3v.jpg needs a US tag

• File:Cappella_Piccolomini_sposa_Eleonora_e_cardinale_Pinturicchio_Siena.jpg needs a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:19, 27 March 2024 (UTC)