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Objective fact differs from a subjective fact

I explained the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 03:53, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you attribute it to yourself? Unomi (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in the edit history the edit is attributed to QuackGuru. QuackGuru (talk) 04:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that your statement qualifies as ASF tbh, it reads like a tautology. I think you should self-revert and perhaps stir up some discussion on a proper wording. Just to be clear, any opinion can be asserted as fact, that doesn't make the asserted opinion true or justified. Unomi (talk) 04:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."

This is already part of policy. You wrote "any opinion" can be asserted as fact. This is not the intent of ASF. Any opinion cannot be asserted as fact. I was clarifiying the difference between an objective opinion and a subjective opinion. The sentence summarises ASF policy. In some cases we assert the text and in other case we attribute it to the source such as so and so said. QuackGuru (talk) 17:26, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact. A subjective fact is an opinion that is possibly attributed.

I propose we include this in Wikipedia's WP:ASF policy. Some editors are confused that "any opinion" can be asserted as fact. It is an opinion when the Beatles are the greatest band. But what type of an opinion is it. It is a subjective opinion. Clarifying the intent of ASF by explaining that there is a difference between an objective opinion and a subjective opinion will clear up any misunderstanding editors are having with ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, could you give examples of what you mean by objective facts and subjective facts as they might be used in an article? I am quite honestly confused by the language, is there a different between a subjective fact and an opinion as it relates to what might reasonably be thought introduced to an article? Unomi (talk) 18:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. These are objective facts. I previously gave an example of a subjective fact. ASF policy explains the example. If you are still confused this shows there is a need to clarify policy. QuackGuru (talk) 19:01, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If by subjective fact you refer to the Beatles are the greatest band then this is what I understand to be opinion, if subjective fact is indistinguishable from opinion then I see no reason to introduce the (somewhat confusing) term and even less for the idea that it should possibly be attributed, opinions should always be attributed, and to my peculiar way of thinking so should facts. Unomi (talk) 04:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Wikipedia search shows two different definitions of subjective fact, neither terribly definitive anyway. Let's not confuse things. CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It seems extremely confusing. Policy should be simple to understand. DigitalC (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it is confusing. I used wikilinks to specific articles to make it simple to understand. QuackGuru (talk) 07:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An objective fact differs from a subjective fact

An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said).

Any opinion is not an opinion according to ASF. There is a difference between a subjective fact versus an objective fact but ASF is too vague in explaining or clarifying the difference. When a person reads WP:ASF policy it should be distinguishable what is the difference between an objective opinion compared to a subjective opinion. It is somewhat confusing when it is confusing and vague the intent of ASF. Let's not continue to confuse things with a policy that does not clearly explain the difference between a subjective fact versus an objective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 07:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This version is MUCH more confusing as what is currently in the policy. DigitalC (talk) 16:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not currently explains in policy. You have not explained how it is confusing or made a specific proposal to improve it. DigitalC thinks it is more confusing than the current version. That means DigitalC still thinks the current version is confusing but the proposal which clears up the confusion is more confusing. How could a proposal that explains the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact be confusing? There is nothing confusing about it. The current version does not explain what is the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact. QuackGuru (talk) 16:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, both versions have significant issue. the 'simple formulation' is perhaps a bit over-simple. what we mean to point out (as I see it) is something like this:

it's OK to assert simple, uncontested common knowledge (e.g. 'Mars is a planet' or 'Plato was a philosopher') as is.
it's OK to assert verifiable statements (e.g. "Linus Pauling advocated the use of Vitamin C as a panacea' or 'Newtonian physics treats gravity as a force'), with proper attribution.
it's OK to assert verifiable opinions (e.g. 'Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe" in opposition to quantum mechanics' or 'Fox News believes the health care plan is detrimental to society')
it is not OK to to state opinions as wikipedia editors (e.g. Einstein or Fox News are right/wrong in the above).

Perhaps the way to rephrase it (trying to keep to the 'simple' notion') is to say something like: "Assert what you can attribute, be it fact, opinion, or common knowledge; do not give opinions about what you assert." Not perfect, but it has advantages. --Ludwigs2 17:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We don't attribute facts they way that we attribute opinions though. For instance, we don't need to say "World Encyclopedia says that Linus Pauling advocated the use of Vitamin C as a panacea" we do need to attribute opinions, which is why we say "Fox News believes..." etc. DigitalC (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are mispresenting my comments again - please stop. I never said the current version was confusing. I believe the current version is MUCH better than what you have proposed, because what you have proposed makes it more confusing. It is supposed to be "A simple formulation", and getting into "objective fact" vs. "subjective fact" is not simple, nor is it needed. DigitalC (talk) 17:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal. "An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." I propose we include both of these sentences. QuackGuru (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Although Ludwigs2 understands the current ASF is oversimplified I disagree with Ludwigs2 that we need to rephrase the current text. To avoid the continued confusion we need to expand on the current meaning of ASF policy but not change or rephrase it. Rephrasing the current policy will change the meaning and damage the meaning. I want to stick the the current meaning and expand on its meaning the intent of ASF. I think including both sentences will clear up any confusion editors are having. ASF policy needs to be clear when we should attribute or not attribute facts or opinions and what is the difference between a fact or an opinion. My proposal will fix these issues. QuackGuru (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I may, nearly the entire book I recommended before, Philosophy of scientific method, deals with subjective vs objective fact. It is extremely confusing and complicated to get into, especially on a policy page. To make this as simple as possible I, personally, would say that facts are attributes. Opinions, on the other hand, are principles, ideas, beliefs or conclusions, which may be subject to dispute.

Attributes of a liquid would be fluidity, surface tension, and incompressibility. Pascal's law would qualify as an attribute. An opinion, on the other hand, would be Frenkel's theory. Here is another definition from Reading and writing nonfiction genres By Kathleen Buss, Lee Karnowski

Fact versus opinion

News might be defined as new, timely information about an event or person in which readers are interested. A fact is information that can be verified or documented. It is known to be true. On the other hand, opinions are personal beliefs, views, or judgements. An opinion also could be defined as what the person feels. A feeling does not make a fact no matter how many people agree with the feeling. Opinions are used in editorials and advice columns. News articles always use factual information, not opinions.

To have students better understand the difference, have them look through the newspaper for examples of facts and opinions and share them with the class. The following are examples that may be discussed.

Sports can be enjoyed as recreation. (Fact)

Most people love baseball. (Opinion)

The most exciting sport to watch is tennis. (Opinion)

I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 18:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Zaereth, this is complicated - much more complicated than policy should be. This is a policy page, not an article, and I really don't think we need to be getting into subjective vs. objective fact here. DigitalC (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Restore ASF lead

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things, so we assert as many of them as possible.

I propose the lead to ASF should be restored. ASF was rewritten and is still confusing. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#A simple formulation. QuackGuru (talk) 07:57, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the ASF lead, added a sentence explaining the difference between an objective fact versus a subjective fact, and kept one of the newly added sentences added to the lead of ASF. See this edit. QuackGuru (talk) 19:24, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This edit changed the ASF without any agreement. QuackGuru (talk) 19:30, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The meaning of ASF policy was drastically changed. This edit does not exactly match the edit summary. Another editor made major changes to the lead without gaining consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 19:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal stood on the talk page for ~ 1 week with no one in opposition and several supporting it. Unomi (talk) 16:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal to restore the lead stood for a long time without any opposition. I restored the consensus version to lead to ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The editor alleged this is a core policy; pls gain talk page consensus for changes. The editor did not gain any consensus and did not discuss the edit here. Can anyone point where on this talk page there was consensus for this edit that another editor edit warred into ASF policy without discussion or consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No specific objection was made to restoring to the broad consensus version and no editor was able to point to talk page consensus for this edit repeated in edit war again here. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your recommendation. First, your definition of objective and subjective fact is incorrect. Please see the sources I recommended above. Encyclopedias deal in journalistic writing, not scientific (OR/SYN) type writing. Second, I am of the firm opinion that simpler is better. Every book on writing that I've read seems to agree with me. Third, the idea that "Plato is a philosopher" or "Mars is a planet" is obvious and does not need to be referenced is ridiculous. Not everyone knows who Plato is, or where to find Mars. This information not only should be referenced, but can be with incredible ease. Not doing so is mere laziness. However, information that is obvious, such as "water is wet," does not need a reference. This can be verified by anyone and therefore will not be found in reliable sources. Wikipedia should be no different. But, that's just my opinion. Zaereth (talk) 21:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the issue here. Take it to another section where a proposal was made for objective and subjective fact. This section is about changing ASF without talk page consensus here. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely concur. Unomi (talk) 23:23, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Something that needs to be said: The fact that "Mars is a planet" needs to be Verifiable... it does not necessarily need to be verified. It is this distinction that allows the sentence "Mars is a planet" in an article to remain unreferenced. Blueboar (talk) 00:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but is that endangered by this edit?. Unomi (talk) 18:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Editors are commenting about the wrong issue here. This might confuse other editors. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ASF lead changes without discussion or consensus

The editor alleged this is a core policy; pls gain talk page consensus for changes. The editor did not gain any consensus and did not discuss the edit here. Can anyone point where on this talk page there was consensus for this edit that another editor edit warred into ASF policy without discussion or consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 01:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please comment on the changes made to ASF without any consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 01:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those were good changes, the specific case of a survey sounds weird and presumably was precipitated by a specific content dispute, no one seriously disputes is subjective and unclear. Unomi (talk) 06:42, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have not been able to explain why the changes were good. I strongly disagree with the changes which were made without consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Crum375 seems to have changed policy without consensus. Rather inappropriate, in my opinion. BigK HeX (talk) 07:09, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen all the versions recently, so can't comment on which is the original and best version. Both versions have merits, but I prefer the longer because it covers two eventualities:

It says not to put millions of unnecessary citations for undisputed facts, which is worth saying
I don't quite like the fact=verifiable idea, since almost any opinion will have supporting references - it doesn't make it a fact.

Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." Stephen B Streater, I made a proposal in the above thread to include these two sentences that you and other editors could have missed. This will make it more clear the intent of ASF. QuackGuru (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, regardless of which is the oldest, I also prefer the version we have on top at the moment (i.e. the slightly longer one). Although it could still be vastly improved (in fact this whole page could - do we really need all this waffle just to tell people to be neutral?)--Kotniski (talk) 07:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should keep the current lead of ASF and not rewrite it. It can be improved by adding two sentences I proposed above. QuackGuru (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adding those two sentences would not be an improvement. Remember, this is supposed to be SIMPLE. The idea of a subjective fact vs. an objective fact is not simple. If it were simple, you wouldn't have needed wikilinks. We want people to understand policy on first read - not go, "what the heck does that mean?" and not understand the policy. Furthermore, a subjective fact can be asserted as fact - "Hitler was evil". This is a subjective fact, but still easy to assert as a fact. An objective fact can also be attributed - "World Encyclopedia says that Mars is a Planet". So putting this information in here doesn't HELP the policy. DigitalC (talk) 21:58, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People should be aware that there might be a few editors who are against the broad consensus version and long standing meaning of ASF policy and want to rewrite (or possibly destroy) policy. QuackGuru (talk) 17:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd strongly recommend researching this matter.

Ok, to break this down, I'll start with the sentence currently in the article. "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This makes no sense. The words are assembled in a correct sentence, but together they offer no meaning. "Hitler is evil." is an opinion, but few people will dispute this. As stated in the source I referenced above, "A feeling does not make a fact no matter how many people agree with the feeling." (Examples of opinions not seriously disputed: The sun is good. Trees are nice. The first mirrors used by people were most likely pools of dark, still water, or water collected in a primitive vessel of some sort.) Just because an opinion is not "seriously disputed," that still does not make it a fact.

Now I'll examine the sentence which Carol added. "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified." This actually does make sense. Actually, it is the very definition of fact as found in the same source I cited above: "A fact is information that can be verified or documented." I prefer this sentence because it actually has meaning.

I do agree that too many references can be annoying. At the same time though, I'd rather see too many than none at all. In example, if writing an article about Mars, nearly every source will start out by telling me that Mars is a planet. There should be no problem sourcing this info. However, it's not necessary to add a cite to every line. If all of the info in a paragraph came from a single source, then I'd simply put one at the end of the paragraph. I would strongly recommend adding at least one source per paragraph. Zaereth (talk) 17:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The sun is good. Trees are nice. Wikipedians are expert editors. These are examples of a subjective opinion. If we included an explanation of the difference between a subjective statement versus an objective statement it would clear up the confusion you are having. See here: "An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said). QuackGuru (talk) 19:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is also the way we normally edit, apart from truly controversial information, we tend to not need to cite information which is attached to a blue link(as long as the target article supports it).

ASF, as I understand it, deals with situations where one does not need to offer a RS in order to justify having the text in an article. ~~It does not cover opinion, never has,~~ it covers only that which is trivially verifiable to be the consensus opinion of RS. In that context the text in the current version is plain wrong viz. that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact, this is in no way covered by ASF as an RS would have to be given for the existence of such a survey and its results. To me it starts to look like a sizable bit of ASF actually belongs in WP:V. Unomi (talk) 18:15, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I reject rewriting the lead to ASF including "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified.". Anything that can be verified is not considered a fact according to ASF. When there is a serious dispute (among reliable sources) it is an opinion according to ASF. When it is an opinion we attribute the opinion to the source. However, we can include a new sentence about verifiability. QuackGuru (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with QuackGuru's sentiment here -- for the most part. It seems there are an endless number of exceptions to any of the rules discussed here. BigK HeX (talk) 20:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My view is completely the opposite. According to what QuackGuru has said above, an opinion is a fact if there is no dispute in reliable sources. So, if one source says "Hitler is evil", and there are no reliable sources that dispute this, then it doesn't get attributed. This is a problem because even without any sources disputing the "fact", it is obvious that it is an opinion. DigitalC (talk) 00:51, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some diffs showing the QuackGuru indeed believes that unless there is dispute among reliable sources, an opinion does not need to be attributed - [1], [2], [3]. DigitalC (talk) 02:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." If editors want to include information about which can be verified we can include this sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have provided a reliable source for Carol's definition. I am simply challenging you to come up with a source for the one you support. The definition we have makes Wikipedia itself look ridiculous, as if the people making the policy pages of an encyclopedia have never even seen a dictionary, let alone an encyclopedia. This leads me to the question, why should I even bother?

There's a domino effect that happens when we start changing the meaning of words to fit our own opinions. Suddenly, they don't fit with the meanings of other words, so we must alter them as well. Now, why would those of us who focus on quality want to stay in an environment where the policies are just a menagerie of made-up terms? Zaereth (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Using a source for Carol's definition on how to write Wikipedia policy is not required as a way to completely change Wikipedia policy. My sources are the blue links to objective fact, subjective fact, and reliable source which are part of my proposal to expand ASF while keeping intact the original meaning and intent of ASF. Instead of improving ASF policy, a few editors want to change the entire meaning of ASF which would render it useless. QuackGuru (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it in no way renders it useless, it simply makes what we mean by it more precise and less open to gaming. The wording you prefer, imo, is much too vulnerable to No true Scotsman and other logical fallacies. The intent of ASF, I believe, was exactly to cover very basic, very limited scope scenarios. Unomi (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, it would render it useless if editors changed the entire meaning of ASF.

For example, if we changed the lead to add "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified." it would change the entire meaning of ASF. A fact is not a piece of information which can be verified. Opinions can be verified too. It make no sense to add "By fact we mean a piece of information which can be verified" because a piece of information that is verified does not make it a fact. There is a difference between a subjective statement versus an objective statement. QuackGuru (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How can you verify an opinion? For example, following the example "Hitler is evil", how would you verify that opinion? DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No specific response was made to the above comments. I assume this got lost with all the other comments or editors agree with me. QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or it could be that it has only been a few hours. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Back to QuackGuru's line: "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones - like “Mars is a planet” and “Plato was a philosopher” - must be verified through a reliable source." This works for me - in WP:V. It tells editors what to do. I don't think we should try and define fact. I'm also in favour of a much shorter policy and less waffle (as mentioned above). Something along the lines of:

Assert facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. I'd replace the entire section with this, tagged onto the Bias paragraph above. If people can't understand a short policy, they're definitely going to get lost in a long one. Less is more. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Less is more confusing. I'm not in favor of replacing the entire section with a shorter version. I'm in favor of keeping the lead paragraph the way it is but include the sentence Stephen B Streater articulated above starting with "In Wikipedia most facts, except the most obvious ones". QuackGuru (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lets back up for a second and consider why ASF is in NPOV in the first place. Unomi (talk) 21:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give a couple of examples why ASF is here. To prevent editors from adding in-text simon says so-and-so attribution to every sourced objective fact and to prevent editors from removing in-text simon says attribution when there is a serious dispute. QuackGuru (talk) 21:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All good stuff. But why is ASF here. Verifiability is not the same as NPOV. I would just direct people to WP:V for that information. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:25, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or we could rename it ALF - it's slightly lost its purpose as its now one of the longest sections. It's another example of trying to created mappers out of packers by reams of instructions. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:27, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ASF is not about verifiability, which is why it is here. To maintain a NPOV, we don't take sides in disputes, and we don't endorse opinions as facts. DigitalC (talk) 22:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In science Dr. Asimov says that if you charge an electroscope, the leaves will separate, because they repel each other. I suggest that in this statement that they separate is an observable fact, but that they repel each other is an opinion. That's the trouble with scientific information. It's partly about disagreements about facts.WFPM (talk) 22:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DigitalC seems to disagree with including information about verifiability for this policy. Am I correct? QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, you are not correct. In fact, I think wikilinking to WP:V is probably good. However while WP:ASF is related to verifiability, it is not ABOUT verifiability. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To everybody, if you leave a response somewhere in the middle, chances are that I'm not going to go back and hunt for it. I disagree with the notion that that policies are independent. A flaw in one policy affects the integrity of the entire structure. It is my personal feeling that all of wikipolicy should be summed up as a whole, to clear-up how everything interconnects.

To QuackGuru, though, I do not use Wikipedia as a reliable source for anything I present. Do you have anything else? I have provided a reliable source for objective and subjective fact. An objective fact is based on physical attributes. A subjective fact is based upon feelings (sensory input). However, "the eyes can decieve us" argument is not a part of journalistic writing. We trust in what the reliable sources say.

That is not to say that our own judgement as a wrtier/editor is not of value. If source "A" says Columbus sailed in 1496, yet every other source says 1492, we should assume an error. If, however, two sources totally disagree on facts, and neither can be backed-up by a third, then both should be presented as possibilities. In example, if source "A" says Louis Quenault was the first person to shoot down an airplane from another aircraft, but source "B" says it was Poncho Villa, I'm going to look for the facts. In this case, the question of when should be settled by the dates. If both happen to say October 5, 1914, then it's time for the so called simon-says attributions. For this, I would definitely use text instead of citations to explain it. (ie: According to source A it was Quenault,[1] while source B says it was Villa in October 1914.[2]) Except in a case of simple human error, most sources will agree about the properties (objective fact) even if their perception of those properties varies (subjective fact).

Opinions are based on conclusions (judgements), values (principles) and feelings (emotional response). They are not a part of either type of fact. However, even opinions have facts, as in, who said it? What is it? Etc...Zaereth (talk) 23:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is an explanation about what is subjective versus what is objective. But that is not the point I am trying to make. I want to explain when we can assert facts and when we can attribute opinions. I want to keep intact the intent of ASF while giving some direction for editors.

"An objective fact is an opinion that can be asserted as fact (without simon-says inline-text phrasing). A subjective fact is an opinion that can be attributed (so-and-so said)."

Zaereth, how would you improve the proposal above. So far no editor has made any suggestions to improve it. I assume it is ready to go into ASF and we can start a RFC for other editors to weight in on the discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 01:57, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll weigh in that a lack of suggestions might not really be an indicator that there is agreement. Personally, I'm fairly ambivalent to the proposed wording, though I don't think the proposal is significantly more clear than the current (old consensus) version. BigK HeX (talk) 02:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will repeat my comments above that QuackGuru seems to be ignoring, since he states that he assumes it is ready to go into ASF. This explanation does not improve the policy, and doesn't belong in the policy. The policy is not an article. The explanation about what is subjective versus what is objective is not simple, and does not make the policy more clear. DigitalC (talk) 02:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are not explaining your reasons. You are only disagreeing with me without any justification for over a year straight now all over Wikipedia. I am not trying to explain what is subjective versus what is objective. I am trying to include information that tells editors when to atribute text and when it is not necessary to attribute text. For example, if it is a subjective statement we attribute it to so-and-so said. When it is an objective statement we don't need to say so-and-so said. I explained why this proposal will impriove ASF by telling the reader when to use attribution and when not to use attribution. My proposal does make it simple to understand ASF policy. QuackGuru (talk) 03:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

An improvement would be to use the terms opinion, and fact. These are terms that are clear to everyone, unlike subjective fact and objective fact. DigitalC (talk) 03:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What may be helpful is to list more examples of facts which it is acceptable to simply assert, versus more contestable assertions which may be treated similarly to commentary/opinions. BigK HeX (talk) 03:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is a good idea. I'm sure Zaereth knows what is treated as opinions versus facts. But we still need to explain to editors when it is a fact in-text attribution is not required and when it is an opinion in-text attribtuion is encouraged. QuackGuru (talk) 17:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm opposed to bringing in new unfamiliar terms, such as objective fact and subjective fact. We don't need to use these actual terms if we are going to define them and then use them only once. I am in favour of using examples of the various cases:

A fact which doesn't need verification
A fact which does need verification
An opinion which needs to be balanced

The simplest of openings followed by couple of examples of each, with the above structure, would make the whole section much shorter and clearer to me. Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I briefly put up an example here for comparison, which is half as long as the established version. I ask the assembled editors to review the policy page as a whole. Consider how long it would take to read it all, and how many of our 1 million editors will actually do this. It is just far too long, and I think this is a serious issue. In software, we would call it bloatware. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, definitely, and I mainly agree with your attempt to make it shorter. However I don't agree with the distinction between a fact that "needs verification" (like Mandela's birthdate) and one that doesn't ("Mars is a planet"). If there is a distinction to be made here, it's not within the scope of this page - since we insist on having separate pages for V, NOR and NPOV (I think they should all be combined, but anyway) we should keep things which are specifically V off the page for NPOV.--Kotniski (talk) 09:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with destroying ASF policy. There is not a problem with the intro to ASF.

A fact which doesn't need verification This is not about ASF.

A fact which does need verification This is not about ASF.

An opinion which needs to be balanced This is not about ASF.

Values or opinions which are subject to serious dispute need balance for NPOV. Balance is about WP:WEIGHT not specifically about ASF.

By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute. This sentence is very well written and currently in the article.

Let me explain why it is a well written sentence. When there is no serious dispute among reliable sources and it is a fact we don't need to add in-text attribution. In-text attribution is about so-and-so said. In-text attribution has nothing to do with WP:V.

Stephen B Streater, ASF is about when to use in-text attribtuion versus no in-text attribution. When text needs verification is not what ASF policy is about. QuackGuru (talk) 17:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me. I misinterpreted the heading ASF. Perhaps a more meaningful one could be put in, such as When to use in text attribution. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But there is also times when we should not use in-text attribtuion (so-and-so said) too. I don't understand the proposals to rewrite a very well written policy. My proposals are not to change the policy. My proposals are to expand the current policy while keeping intact the original meaning. QuackGuru (talk) 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give an example of "when we should not use in-text attribution"? I see no problem of giving attribution to a fact, if the editor so desires. Perhaps you could explain why it is a problem? DigitalC (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A fact versus an opinion

Proposal for ASF. "A fact can be asserted without simon-says inline-text phrasing. An opinion can be attributed to so-and-so said."

After reading comments from other editors I think this simplified version will work. We can also include more examples of facts (objective statements) and more examples of opinions (subjective statements). QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This newer rewritten proposal was discussed here on the talk page without a specific objection. So I'll go ahead and add it to ASF. I made the change. QuackGuru (talk) 01:07, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for ASF. "A fact is an objective statement. An opinion is a subjective statement."

For the examples we can include sentences explaining what is a fact and what is an opinion and give the examples. QuackGuru (talk) 18:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is sort of right, though sometimes apparently objective statements need attribution too (if sources are divided, or if the sources we have are of limited reliability or neutrality).--Kotniski (talk) 18:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now we're getting to something that is simple enough to be clear. PS You've convinced me about the purpose of ASF, so I'm going to change the heading to something more meaningful. Feel free to revert if I've missed something. WP:ASF is also a meaningless abbreviation, but we can address this as a separate point. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK - forget that. The section as written is not just about in text attribution. It's about achieving neutrality. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:33, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that this is better, I still think it's a slippery slope to merely describe an opinion as subjective and a fact as objective. What most books on journalistic writing do is describe the difference clearly so that writers and editors will know how to present information in an unbiased manner. Since QuackGuru asked, the following is more along the lines of the wording which I'd aim for:

Use facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable." Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article. Facts can be verified in a reliable source, and double checked using multiple sources.

Examples of facts:
Stealing is a crime in most countries.

The Beatles were a British rock band.

The United States is the only country to have used a nuclear weapon in wartime.

Gravity causes things to fall.

Facts are inherently neutral. Facts only need to be attributed to their sources using in-line citations. For undisputed facts, a citation at the end of the paragraph is sufficient, but for disputed facts, one to three concurring sources should be used.

By value or opinion,[1] on the other hand, we mean "a belief, principle, idea or conclusion, which may be subject to dispute." Opinions are judgments made by individuals which may or may not be based on fact, covering the “why” of the article. Opinions can be theories, hypotheses, conjecture, or ideals.

Examples of opinions
Stealing is bad. (Belief)

The Beatles were the greatest band in history. (Conclusion)

Using atomic bombs is wrong. (Principle)

Gravity is caused by curvature in spacetime. (Idea)

While an opinion is not factual and cannot be verified, we can verify the facts surrounding the opinion. We attribute the opinion to its origin, describing who has this opinion. We can describe what the opinion is, where it came from, and when.

For instance, rather than asserting that "The Beatles were the greatest band ever", locate a source such as Rolling Stone magazine and say: "Rolling Stone editor Matt Taibbi said that the Beatles were the greatest band ever", and include a reference to the issue in which that statement was made. Likewise, the statement "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band ever" can be made if it can be supported by references to a particular survey; a claim such as "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart" can also be made, because it is verifiable as fact. The first statement asserts a personal opinion; the second asserts the fact that an opinion exists and attributes it to reliable sources.

Opinions are inherently biased. Often, there are opposing opinions. In attributing competing views, it is necessary to ensure that the attribution adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity….

Not perfect, I know, but I haven't taken my usual time in crafting the writing. I'll just throw that out here for everone to examine. Have a good weekend everybody. Zaereth (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I'll digest that and give feedback later. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Use facts, including facts about opinions—but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable."~~ Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article. ~~Facts can be verified in a reliable source, and double checked using multiple sources.~~

I reject rewriting the lead to ASF including the part about "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information which is verifiable". Anything that can be verified is not considered a fact according to ASF. When there is a serious dispute (among reliable sources) it is an opinion according to ASF. When it is an opinion we attribute the opinion to the source.

The examples of facts and the examples of opinions are useful for ASF. I don't see a need to rewrite ASF policy but adding a few more examples could be helpful. QuackGuru (talk) 19:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article."

This seems to be a dangerous statement to use, especially with regards to "how," which is often a contentious discussion for a variety of topics -- to use the examples from above, "how" gravity causes things to fall is labeled as an "idea" above. BigK HeX (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Zaereth's suggestion above seems pretty simple to understand; however, it also seems to change (possibly even eliminate) the long-standing policies in the ASF section. If we're going to eliminate one of the purposes of WP:ASF, then I'd think it'd be worthy to have a discussion [probably an RfC] specifically on that topic first. Of course.. this is all irrelevant if there has already been an RfC on the ASF policy, and I simply missed it. BigK HeX (talk) 07:03, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I think this is getting very confused. There are 2 different types of distinctions here:~~
Questions
questions of a factual nature

questions about values

questions of interpretation

very likely others

Answers
(nearly) all reliable sources agree

there is serious disgreement among RSs
~~Peter jackson (talk) 10:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
Actually, BigK, the question is not how but why. The answer to how gravity works would be "unknown." No theory, as far as I know, offers a mechanism for gravity. Also, it's a fallacy to think that, because something has always been done a certain way, there must be nothing better.
To, Peter, all inquisitive questions can be boiled down to these seven: What, where, when, who, how, why, and does/do. We can not always answer every question, but for the ones we can, they should be answered in the order of importance, as I've listed them. The first five ask for facts. The answer to these will either be right or wrong. The last two ask for opinion. When examining any information, it is important to ask ourselves what question is being answered.
~~Here is an example:~~

A deadly collision, between a minivan and a tractor-trailer, occured at mile 47 of the Glenn Highway, at 2:30 P.M. today. The semi, driven by 25 year old Joe Blow, crashed into the minivan, driven by 36 year old Bob Cobb. Blow was traveling southbound when he lost control on the ice, crossing the center divider. The two vehicles collided head-on, killing Cobb instantly. Witnesses state that the semi-truck was traveling too fast for conditions. The police report that alcohol does not appear to have been a factor.

The first sentence answers what, where and when. The second answers who. The third and fourth sentences answer how. The fifth sentence answers why, while the last question covers do/does. These last two are opinions, and are therefore attributed to their sources. As I've said, all of this information about writing is readily available to anyone who cares to look. Zaereth (talk) 17:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two points I'd like to make with Zaereth. First is that, yes, there are examples of explaining "how" something happens which are not contentious, however, as mentioned above, this is not always the case; above I provided a counter-example which seems pretty sufficient for making that point. When discussing "how" in relation to "how things work," the answer is going to be theoretical, though some theories are far less contentious than others.

As for any "that's how things have been" fallacy -- I've stated no such advocacy here. I stated my opinion that *if* such a substantial change in the policy is being contemplated, an RfC should be conducted. BigK HeX (talk) 23:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'd have to disagree with that. I edit mainly technical articles, where how is the primary concern. When taliking about causality, we're discussing the reason for something; the why. When discussing the manner in which something occurs, we're talking about process: the how. The example I gave above does not describe how things fall. (No process is described.) The closest we could get is, from up to down, accelerating at a rate of 9m per second squared if on Earth. That describes how things fall. Curvature in spacetime describes the reason for gravity, or why it exists. The theory does nothing to describe how it operates.
It's perfectly valid for you to do so, but creating such a distinction between "how" and "why" is largely a personal decision, since common parlance allows uses of "how" without such a clear distinction. A testament to that is the fact that I can ask the question, "How does gravity work, according to Einstein?" and expect for any general English-speaking audience to understand that I am asking for an elaboration of a theory. So, I would still be leery of possible misunderstanding that the proposal above might generate if it asserts that, "Facts are physical attributes, covering the “what,” “where,” “when,” “who” and “how” of the article." BigK HeX (talk) 00:46, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize if I have misread you. Personally, I have no intention of making any changes to policy myself. The changes I recommended above are merely more along the lines of what reliable sources say on the matter. I'd be happy if an RFC is conducted. I'll be ecstatic if just one person looks into the sources I've provided. Zaereth (talk) 00:05, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you make a valid point. I wasn't very happy with the language either. I was just thowing that out there in a rather hasty manner, per QuackGuru's request. It could definitely use clarification. For instance, some of the confusion you're experiencing appears to be from looking at the wrong definition. If you'll notice, I'm using the terms as nouns. If you look for those defs in your online dictionary, perhaps that would help clear it up. Zaereth (talk) 00:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The following line is from above, by WFPM. "In science Dr. Asimov says that if you charge an electroscope, the leaves will separate, because they repel each other. I suggest that in this statement that they separate is an observable fact, but that they repel each other is an opinion. That's the trouble with scientific information. It's partly about disagreements about facts.WFPM (talk) 22:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)"
I've been waiting for someone to touch upon this aspect of opinions, for to me it seems to be the very core of what QuackGuru is trying to point out. Not all opinions are seriously disputed. Very few people will disagree that magnetism accompanies electricity. This is almost accepted as fact, even though there is no way to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. The example I gave above, about the first mirrors being pools of water, (which is the first line from the mirror article), is another similar opinion. Undisputed theories are often presented using citation only, preferrably with links to articles, such as electromagnetism, that will expand on the theoretical nature underlying the subject. The article electroscope is a good example of undisputed theories backed up with undisputable observations (facts). The laser pumping article is full of these. The line from the mirror article is a good example of an undisputed theory with little to no evidence.
However, many opinions are disputed. It's not so much a disagreement about the facts, but about the interpretation, or, the meaning. In science as well as religion, the unanswerable question why is the primary goal. Everytime we answer this question, it leaves us with two more whys. (I'm sure we all remember discovering, around the age of four, that we could torture our parents with this question.) The important part, I think, is understanding that opinions require reasoning on the part of an individual, whereas facts are indeed undisputable observations. They are verifiable in reliable sources, and if accurate, by the reader who comes to experimentally test our information, say, by pumping their own laser.
The only thing we can ever verify about an opinion is that it exists. Understanding this not only helps us present information in a neutral way, but also with accuracy. Zaereth (talk) 01:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~A clear example~~
This proposal is for ASF. "An objective observation expresses a fact. A subjective interpretation expresses an opinion." We made this proposal based on this comment. QuackGuru (talk) 05:51, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your work on this. As I made clear above, I have a more general issue with the length of the policy. Changes tend to make it longer and longer over time. I doubt very many editors have actually read it. This is a bigger issue though, and not only relevant to this change. Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit that your suggestion does look better, QuackGuru. I still have reservations about using the terms objective and subjective, because it leaves too much room for interpretation. These are not common phrases known to general audiences. This will require defining the terms in depth, (which took one source nearly an entire book), and that leads me straight to Stephen's fears.
I'll take a little while longer to mull this over in my subconscious, and see if I can help come up with some wording that is not only short, simple, and clear to a general audience, but also covers everyone's concerns. Zaereth (talk) 02:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~For clarification I added wikilinks to both objective and subjective. This keeps the text short while defining the terms. QuackGuru (talk) 02:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~I really dislike linking to articles in our policy... but I have to admit it does help. Blueboar (talk) 02:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~ASF template~~
^{[No serious dispute?]}
It was suggested that a template for ASF is helpful. This edit suggested we need a template when a serious dispute exists among reliable sources. QuackGuru (talk) 00:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Attribution~~
In an article about some topic raising disputes among scholars. It can be article about climate change, historical event, philosophical position, political movement. While using some author as a source. Is it important what position author holds regarding the subject, is it important to mention that position in the article, and what rules regulate that? Thanks! --windyhead (talk) 20:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, attribution is often very important. Besides this policy, look at WP:Verifiability and WP:Identifying reliable sources, and WP:No original research... all of which touch on this idea. You should also check out WP:Attribution, which while not a policy or a guideline, sums the issue up well. Blueboar (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~So may we somehow process to make changes to the rule? What the addition could be? --windyhead (talk) 12:41, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
If your question is whether we may mention, or even highlight, the name of an author of a source in the text, the answer is yes. It is up to the editor to decide whether to use just the publication's name, the author, or both for in-text attribution. Typically we'd want to focus on the better known. See this section relating to fringe theories, but the principles are similar for all topics. Crum375 (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. What about author's position regarding the subject? I. e. the Vegetarianism article refers to a scholar who is known to be vegetarian. Or the opposite. Would it be better the article to mention his position as well? --windyhead (talk) 09:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would say yes, this is often noted in our articles and it is practiced in media and scholarly works. Unomi (talk) 09:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So how about this addition to Attributing and specifying biased statements section: If the author is known to adhere to (to hold) some position on a subject he's discussing, and there is a reliable source for that, it is good the author's position to be mentioned. Please improve. --windyhead (talk) 10:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is getting into instruction creep here. Most of the time, an author's position on something will be obvious from what he says, ... on the other hand, if it is important to explicitly mention it, that can included in the attribution. We need to give editors lee-way to phrase things as they feel best. Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, and what must be done if there's a dispute about if the best way to phrase is to include the position or not to? --windyhead (talk) 13:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal: If the author is known to adhere to (to hold) some position on a subject he's discussing, and there is a reliable source for that, but author's position is not obvious from what he says, the article is considered more neutral if the author's position is mentioned. Please improve. --windyhead (talk) 11:30, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of ways to resolve disputes... see if there is a compromise position, seek third party opinions though an RfC, request formal mediation... editing policy to resolve a specific dispute is never a good option. Blueboar (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Homeopathy~~
Dear Sir/Madam, I observed that the articles on Christianiy, Islam, Hinduism, Osteopathy, Naturopathy,
Chiropractic etc. are good and positive and there are forks to the articles on Christianiy,
Islam and Hinduism which contain all the criticism. The article on Homeopathy as well as
its fork for criticism ('http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Homeopathy/Criticism'), on the
other hand, are both negative and bad; so can we make the article on Homeopathy good and
positive like all the other articles and put all the criticism on its fork? If there's a
rule that both articles should be full of criticism, then we must make the matter in the
criticism fork available in the main article for Christianiy, Islam and Hinduism also. Thanking you, Yours faithfully, Dr.Vittal (talk) 05:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't always observe its own policies, hence the inconsistency you note. This is because there's no effective procedure for enforcing it. You can try Wikinfo for a wiki with official policy of sympathetic point of view. Peter jackson (talk) 09:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, though, in this case Wikipedia's policy is pretty well enforced. There is a reasonable consensus among the scientific community that the basis of homeopathy is pseudoscientific - there is no known scientific test, up to and including the most sensisitive spectroscopic analysis, which can distinguish homeopathic preparations from placebo. Guy (Help!) 12:02, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Fringe~~
~~I have a couple of concerns on the recently vigorously edited fringe section.~~
The first is to note that there may be (particularly in fringe areas) multiple minority views, so the wording should not explicitly state there is only one. I have made a change in this direction. A related point, which I haven't addressed yet, is that the may be no majority view at all, with all views minority views. This is often the case in a contentious area. Better text (yet to be determined) doesn't need to make the assumption that there is a majority view, and could indiciate what to do in this case.
The wording seems ambiguous to me as to whether the reliable sources related to the topic as a whole (or possibly, even wider scope), or just the fringe area itself. Reliable sources on a fringe area are much narrower and skewed compared with reliable sources on a wider area, and I am proposing that the fringe sources are not wide enough to use, and if this was already the intention, that this be clarified in the text.
The changes which removed science as the unique source to NPOV seem reasonable at first sight. I like the shorter section. But science when correctly carried out is by its very nature NPOV, ruthlessly discarding old theories when better one come along. And NPOV procedures like this result in science. Is it worth mentioning something about science (or the scientific method) lest we slip back into an age of superstition and "revealed Truth" unchallenged?
Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:14, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just for information's sake: Science is not NPOV; science is prejudicial, ruthlessly (as you say) discarding theories as they fail according the the rules science has established for itself. Science is a system which tries to distinguish between theoretical claims based on their ability to account for empirical observations. Where scientists have opinions, they are opinions of the form "We accept theory X, because of all the theories available, X fits best with what we see under controlled investigation." Scientists make no claims about things where they have not (or cannot) perform controlled investigations or make empirical observations.
NPOV is tangential to that. NPOV says "We present all relevant theories in some rough balance according to their prominence, but we do not evaluate those theories (i.e. reject or accept them) except as they are evaluated in reliable sources". Where science has made definitive claims, NPOV requires us to present them as such. Where science has not made definitive claims, NPOV prohibits us from presenting a scientific perspective that does not exist in sources.
Science is a point of view (POV) built built around a particular (an highly restrictive) epistemology. Where science is performed and applied correctly it is a powerful POV that almost always outweighs other opinions (that is the entire raison d'etre of the scientific method: to provide an epistemological framework for making decisive claims about the world). Where science is performed badly or applied outside the restricted realm in which it has epistemological power, it is just another point of view (and a spectacularly unconvincing one, at that).
just so it's said. --Ludwigs2 22:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A nice defence of fringe views, but not actually relevant. Consider cosmology: the neutral point of view is the one followed by the scientific mainstream, because it's a scientific concept. Science follows objectively verifiable truth, fringe theories follow WP:TRUTH, which is different. Some of the bitterest disputes on Wikipedia centre around attempts to assert parity between objective reality and subjective WP:TRUTH, for example the creation-evolution debate. Evolution is a scientific theory, creation is religious one. A scientific theory can be abandoned and refined where conflicting evidence appears, a religious theory can't because all new evidence is weighed according to how well it fits the faith so conflicting evidence is rejected. So where something is purported as science - for example the study of some observed phenomenon - it is the scientific mainstream that has the neutral point of view. And yes, they can get things wrong, resulting in them correcting themselves form time to time. Guy (Help!) 12:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you're saying, and that that's a commonly presented argument here on wikipedia, but it is not (strictly speaking) correct. Science tries to make an approximation of 'truth' through verification; neutrality (in the wikipedia sense) is not about 'truth'. For something like cosmology we present the scientific viewpoint, yes, but we do not present the scientific viewpoint because it's neutral. We present the scientific viewpoint because it is (by virtue of being a well-developed scientific claim) the most prominent viewpoint, and neutrality requires us to represent the most prominent viewpoint as such. The same goes with the creation-evolution debate: evolution is the most prominent viewpoint in the scientific world (it is prominent because most scientists believe it, because it fits the available evidence well) so neutrality requires us to present evolution as the dominant theory in scientific contexts. In the context of Abrahamic faiths, the balance is different - creation has far more prominence, evolution far less (different people believe different things, because the criteria of belief are different in religious contexts), and so NPOV requires a different handling. The problem of non-scientific things that are 'purported as science' (such as creationism) is an interesting one, but the scientific point of view isn't neutral with respect to them: from the scientific point of view such things are straight-out wrong. Again, NPOV insists that we give evolution first billing in scientific contexts not because science is neutral, but because evolution has gained prominence in the scientific world because it fits the available evidence.
'Fringe view', incidentally, is not a scientific concept, and the way it's used on wikipedia it's not even an analytic concept. In the real world it seems to be a reference to funky ideas that are expressly framed as scientific but have little or no scientific standing; on wikipedia it has become a catch-all term for any number of distinct types of topics, with no real rhyme or reason that organizes them. It's this mish-mash that polarizes the issue and causes people to confuse scientific efforts at establishing truth with editorial neutrality. I don't really see why the whole 'fringe' thing was ever adopted; it seems to me that balancing topics based on prominence is more than adequate to maintain neutrality, and the whole Fringe issue creates far, far more contention and strife than it actually resolves. but there may be some historical reason that I am not aware of. --Ludwigs2 16:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The view that fringe topics should be biassed towards their own references would lead to, at the very least, inconsistencies across the encyclopaedia. At worst, a nonsense idea would refer to nonsense sources - dressed up as legitimate. Giving priority to scientifically tested ideas (ideas which, as they are independently verifiable by anyone, carry dominant weight where they are applicable) is one way to avoid this. How would you suggest avoiding nonsense dressed up as legitimate point of view? Stephen B Streater (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why we deal with fringe topics the way we do is all discussed at WP:FRINGE. Have you read it? Blueboar (talk) 16:52, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~@ Blueboar: yes, I have, several times. did you have a specific section in mind, or was this just a general comment? I'm happy to go reread the whole thing again, if that's what you had in mind.~~
@ Stephen B Streater: I don't see how that applies to what I said. first, I don't think 'fringe topic' is a coherent concept on wikipedia (though it has its uses), and second, I don't know where you got the 'biased towards their own references' bit. can you clarify? I'm a scientist, I like science, I do science, but science is a practice which only works in its own limited and well-defined domain (an ever expanding domain, of course - science is always going where no science has gone before - but it can only go where it can apply its own rules in a sensible way). --Ludwigs2 17:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I see the relevant sections of WP:FRINGE have also been edited recently resulting in a similar unsatisfactory result as this policy has. As that guideline summarises this policy (and not the other way round), I think here is a better place to discuss and fix first. The improvements can then be moved to the guideline. It talks optimistically about majority of reliable sources, but isn't clear to me on whether sources respected within a fringe field should be treated as reliable, and hence the mainstream view, or unreliable but noteworthy as a secondary view. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the WP:FRINGE guideline is not just a summary of this policy... it is also a summary of WP:NOTE (it started as a notability guideline for Fringe topics) with a touch of WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOR tossed in. Blueboar (talk) 19:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Which reminds me that we need to rfc the pseudoscience as per the earlier discussions. Blueboar (talk) 19:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
I think your RFC, though worthy of comment, is orthogonal to my points - it talks about where things should be presented rather than what the policy should be. It seems that no one will admit that we are creeping towards a POV bias for each article, rather than NPOV for every article - which is a different thing. Or put another way do we want an encyclopaedia which is NPOV as a whole, or one in which every article is individually NPOV? The latter is much stronger, and implied by the no fork/single article policy. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry.... I did not mean to imply that there is a direct connection between this thread and the RFC... the thread simply reminded me that I had put the RFC on hold because it dealt with the same broad topic. Yes, the RFC is purely about where this material should be presented. Not about what the policy should be. Blueboar (talk) 16:11, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

patience stephen - I haven't gotten back to this thread until just now. I don't know what you mean by 'creeping towards a POV bias for each article'; can you provide an example? I will say that there is no general 'NPOV stance' that can be applied uniformly to every article in wikipedia: each article needs to accurately convey information about the topic in question, and that will mean that what is NPOV in one article may be different than what is NPOV in another article.
a source can be reliable without being mainstream. for instance, if you take a topic like ESP, there is an awful lot of material (and even some well-formed research) available. These are certainly reliable sources for discussing the topic of ESP, but are hardly mainstream. They would not be considered reliable sources for, say, psychology. Of course, you have to make certain that a topic like ESP is not presented in such a way that it appears to be mainstream within its article (that would not be neutral), but given that consideration there is no need to assume that NPOV for ESP would be the same as NPOV for Cognitive Therapy or NPOV for (say) Quantum Mechanics. if you see what I mean... --Ludwigs2
You may be answering a different point to the one I'm raising, or I may not agree with you - it's not clear to me yet. If, hypothetically, there is a fringe group which believes some rubbish, and has published sources detailing the rubbish, are you saying that these sources should be treated as mainstream for the article or not? You appear to be saying that they should. But then suppose that the fringe beliefs are inconsistent with generally held scientific theories. The question is whether the fringe or the scientific view should be given most weight in the article. I'm not simply talking about the most text. Should the impression left on a reader be "This fringe view is probably reality" or should it be "This is probably nonsense"? Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:36, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I agree with Ludwigs that the concept of fringe seems muddled. There are a variety of possible types of candidates here:~~
theories held by a very small minority of reputable experts, published in reputable sources; an example of this might be Roger Penrose's theory that gravity is unquantized; he's certainly a highly regarded physicist, but I don't know whether anyone else agrees

theories held by a small number of experts, but for religious reasons (e.g. creationsism), & not published in reputable sources

theories completely outside the academic world
Even that's probably an oversimplification. Peter jackson (talk) 09:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say that some of Roger Penrose's ideas are certainly fringe ;-) But then in some of the areas he writes about, there is no established majority view - something I raised at the start of this thread. My more fundamental question still remains unanswered though - is WP a place for Cultural_relativism or a place which sits outside any local beliefs. The wording on fringe as it stands is not clear to me. Stephen B Streater (talk) 10:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~So that's 3 of us agreed on that. Peter jackson (talk) 14:52, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
@ Stephen B Streater: I believe you've misunderstood me. again, let me reiterate: a source can be reliable without being mainstream. A book about some rubbish (assuming it's a well written book) can authoritatively describe that rubbish, and would be a perfectly reliable source for doing so. There's no reason to assert that what the book says is true; however we can assert that the book is accurate within and constrained by the misbegotten premises of the rubbish it talks about. To the extent that such a source (or the topic in general) makes claims that fly in the face of scientific reality, we are (obviously) required to introduce scientific clarifications, but beyond that we can use fringe sources to describe and explain the rubbish so that readers understand it. The problem on a lot of fringe articles is that some editors have gotten the kooky notion that we should try to define or explain non-mainstream concepts from a purely mainstream perspective; this produces wildly inaccurate, uninformative, and badly sourced articles - since of course, the mainstream doesn't have a whole lot sensible to say about non-mainstream material, except to ridicule it. It's a bit like insisting that we write our article on UFO cults strictly from the Christian perspective, since the Christian faith is mainstream in the English speaking world. --Ludwigs2 15:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P.s (just noticed this comment, sorry): NPOV is not cultural relativism; again, a clear description of something is not the same as a claim to facticity. I can make a very good description of a unicorn, but this does not imply that I believe unicorns actually exist. --Ludwigs2 16:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. My views are much closer to yours than I had feared :-) Of course, a RS in an area may say that the area is WP:TRUTH, but however reliable it is at describing aspects of the area, it would not be impartial on the overall validity of the area. In fact, I imagine that most detailed accounts will think they are talking about reality. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:41, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~Should topic specific issues be discussed in a general policy~~

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Comments requested as to whether it is appropriate for a broad policy to discuss issues that relate to only one specific topic area. There are currently two topic-specific sections in the NPOV policy that do this: WP:PSCI (relating only to pseudoscience) and WP:RNPOV (relating only to religion). It is proposed that these sections be removed. It is further proposed that the section on pseudoscience should be merged into WP:FRINGE. - Blueboar (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll kick this off by saying that I suspect two of the broadest areas with the most vociferous POV pushers are pseudoscience and religion, which are both fundamentally untestable belief based systems. If these are the areas which are causing editors the most trouble, many hours of strife may be saved by determining the WP approach in a single place - namely here. In this scenario, other areas of potential contention, such as commercial motivation, could also be sorted here. I wouldn't be opposed though to wikilinks to each problem area with brief directions from here. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Stephen that brief directions from here may be warranted. We could mention a list of general trouble areas such as religion, pseudoscience, and biased terminology like "terrorism", as examples, with links to specialized sub-pages that deal with them, like WP:FRINGE and WP:WTA. But going beyond a mere mention on this page would clutter it with details, while inviting disagreements and instability. Crum375 (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with Stephen. We should not attempt to strip WP:NPOV of these two very helpful examples of NPOV as should it be applied at Wikipedia. People often have trouble understanding NPOV and without examples the policy could be interpreted to suit the editor – someone wanting to promote Reincarnation research as a serious scientific endeavor would read NPOV to suit their purpose, while someone wanting an opposite approach would argue that NPOV supports them. Johnuniq (talk) 00:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~I agree with these two improvements on my comments. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
Comment - If you have not already done so... please read the previous discussions on this... starting a few threads up (with WT:NPOV#Does consensus rule here or not?) and continuing through several subsequent threads. It will explain what lead to this RFC, and give many of the arguments in favor of (and a few against) the idea. I don't think it is necessary to repeat them all again here. Blueboar (talk) 02:15, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've been wading through all this stuff. Will revert if I discover anything which changes my mind. Also, happy that this discussion is focusing on the issues. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose removal of fringe theories section. That points of view held by an extremely small minority don't belong in Wikipedia, should be in NPOV. The section on religion can be moved out. -- Rico 23:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um... Rico, have you read the section in question? I don't think it says what you think it says. (And the section that comes closest to saying that is WP:UNDUE, which isn't under discussion.) Blueboar (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support removal of the sections. First, it's not clear that they say anything. According to V, we can call views pseudoscientific if reliable sources do, and if not we can't; in addition, just because reliable sources say something doesn't mean we must repeat it, and that's something that can only be judged on a case-by-case basis, because it depends entirely on context, the quality and specificity of the sources, how many sources say it, and so on. Regarding the religion section, it could be summarized in one sentence, and that sentence would apply to all other topics.
Secondly, the pseudoscience section comes straight from ArbCom, and while I have no problem linking to an ArbCom case, or repeating a decision in a behavioral policy, I'm not comfortable about quoting them at length in a content policy, and I doubt if the ArbCom intended to be so quoted.
Finally, a general content policy is not the place to discuss specific content issues in depth; both the pseudoscience and religion sections would be more appropriate elsewhere, e.g. WP:FRINGE for pseudoscience. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 06:44, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal of the sections. Needlessly duplicates content of other policy pages. Unomi (talk) 20:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~partly done~~
OK... I have moved the pseudoscience section to WP:FRINGE as per the suggestion. Before I remove the Religion section, we need to think... is there a home for it somewhere else... can we move it or should it be simply deleted? Blueboar (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for doing that, BB. As for religion, personally I think it could be deleted. I don't think it's making a point that isn't already elsewhere on the page in a more general form. SlimVirgin ^{talk contribs} 05:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~And DONE~~
OK... given no reply indicating a desire to move the religion material to some other location, I have followed Slim Virgin's suggestion and simply cut it. I think we are done with this. Blueboar (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~POVed quotes On Philip Larkin~~
almost-instinct says on Wikipedia_talk:Quotations#Unable_To_Post: "For the biogs sections I chose quotes that had some relevence to that section of Larkin's life. The other quotes are from popular poems and can stand alone."
We already have an article listing of Philip Larkin's Poems.
His choice of quotes is representing a certain point of view, specifically his, and using ~~this~~these quotes creates an opinion that wikipedia endorses. These quotes should be moved to wikiquote. Can we get more feedback?96.52.92.106 (talk) 03:46, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
the complaint is too strong. Every selection of facts involves a judgment by the author on what is useful for the reader. It is quite impossible to summarize, say, a 500 page biography in 1000 words without making lots of choices--that is what or editors do all the time. Selecting poems of use to the reader is in the same category as selecting what facts to present, in my opinion. Rjensen (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These excerpts from poems are poved, tho. For example, if you are picking salient facts from a 500 page book, these facts must be verifiable from other independent sources.174.3.123.220 (talk) 04:37, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If an editor boils down two different 500 page books into one 1000 word article, there is even more selectivity required--selection is what Wikipeduia is all about, it is not a POV. Rjensen (talk) 04:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But the quotes have no explanation to their inclusion. They are jut boxed up in a corner. We are left to guess why they are there. Maybe the quotes could be introduced by prose saying, "This is a representative quote of (insert stage of Philip Larkin's life here):". But if we include that, wouldn't that be pov? If not, then original research?174.3.123.220 (talk) 05:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To quote SlimVirgin above a general content policy is not the place to discuss specific content issues in depth Discuss this on the talk page of the article, as it seems to be primarily a content dispute. Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
~~For questions, advice and assistance on how this policy should be applied to specific articles, ask at WP:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~about which there is no dispute~~
In the definition of a fact in WP:ASF, I don't think we mean "about which there is no dispute". Many facts are disputed (like evolution or the existence of the gas chambers); that doesn't stop us asserting them. --Kotniski (talk) 08:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus version says: By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This is correct. When there is no serious dispute and it is a fact we assert it. QuackGuru (talk) 17:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think you will find that 'about which there is no dispute' was in the original version that your text replaces. There is a difference between a fact that no-one disputes, and factual evidence that people put different interpretations on. The gas chambers are an example of this - as you'll see if you read the next paragraph down. Elen of the Roads (talk) 08:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you think that every time an article mentions that people were gassed at Auschwitz, we have to mention also that some people deny that fact? Perhaps these minority views should be mentioned in the main article on the subject, but that shouldn't stop us from asserting the supermajority view as fact elsewhere.--Kotniski (talk) 08:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No. What you chopped out when you changed the article was that the thrust of this section was not distinguishing fact from opinion. It was distinguishing that which could be asserted as beyond dispute from that which needed to be sourced and managed. "Mars is a planet" is beyond dispute (even to those who still believe in the Crystal Spheres). "People were gassed at Auschwitz" is not beyond dispute, and therefore needs to be sourced and managed. The counter view is of such a minority and fringe status that it need not be mentioned every single time (that certainly would fail WP:UNDUE), but it certainly cannot be asserted as a beyond-dispute-statement-that-everyone-is-familiar-with.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 10:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so we're totally confused now. I thought this was about fact vs. opinion; you thought it was about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. Actually I think if you look at it, it's supposed to be the former (because that's what the bold sentence at the beginning says; and if it were the latter it wouldn't belong on this page anyway). But if it's confusing experienced editors, then it's certainly going to confuse newcomers, so probably needs a complete rewrite.--Kotniski (talk) 11:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not arguing with your last sentence. I think the point it was trying to make that very few 'facts' are neutral, a lot of 'facts' can be presented in a way that supports one view or another (and not just in politics!!). Therefore, only 'facts' that everyone knows and no-one disputes can be just asserted. Everything else needs references, and recognition that it may be presented in more than one way. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Forcing changes without consensus to core Wikipedia policy is acceptable. These massive changes changed the meaning of ASF. I restored ASF to the last consensus version. ASF is not about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. It is about a fact v. an opinion. It is not about WP:V. QuackGuru (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kotniski, I specifically rejected your suggestion to rewrite entire policy. Why are you rewriting ASF without a discussion first. QuackGuru (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 538: / Line 538: @@
 ==about which there is no dispute==
 In the definition of a fact in [[WP:ASF]], I don't think we mean "about which there is no dispute". Many facts are disputed (like evolution or the existence of the gas chambers); that doesn't stop us asserting them. --[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 08:28, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
+::The consensus version says: By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." This is correct. When there is no ''serious'' dispute and it is a fact we assert it. [[User:QuackGuru|QuackGuru]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]) 17:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 :I think you will find that 'about which there is no dispute' was in the original version that your text replaces.  There is a difference between a fact that no-one disputes, and factual evidence that people put different interpretations on.  The gas chambers are an example of this - as you'll see if you read the next paragraph down. [[User:Elen of the Roads|Elen of the Roads]] ([[User talk:Elen of the Roads|talk]]) 08:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 ::So you think that every time an article mentions that people were gassed at Auschwitz, we have to mention also that some people deny that fact? Perhaps these minority views should be mentioned in the main article on the subject, but that shouldn't stop us from asserting the supermajority view as fact elsewhere.--[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 08:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
@@ Line 543: / Line 546: @@
 ::::OK, so we're totally confused now. I thought this was about fact vs. opinion; you thought it was about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. Actually I think if you look at it, it's supposed to be the former (because that's what the bold sentence at the beginning says; and if it were the latter it wouldn't belong on this page anyway). But if it's confusing experienced editors, then it's certainly going to confuse newcomers, so probably needs a complete rewrite.--[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]] ([[User talk:Kotniski|talk]]) 11:12, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 :::::Not arguing with your last sentence.  I think the point it was trying to make that very few 'facts' are neutral, a lot of 'facts' can be presented in a way that supports one view or another (and not just in politics!!).  Therefore, only 'facts' that everyone knows and no-one disputes can be just asserted.  Everything else needs references, and recognition that it may be presented in more than one way. [[User:Elen of the Roads|Elen of the Roads]] ([[User talk:Elen of the Roads|talk]]) 11:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
+Forcing changes without consensus to core Wikipedia policy is acceptable. These massive changes changed the meaning of ASF. I restored ASF to the last consensus version. ASF is ''not'' about fact-requiring-sources vs. fact-not-requiring-sources. It is about a fact v. an opinion. It is ''not'' about [[WP:V]]. [[User:QuackGuru|QuackGuru]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]) 16:45, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
+[[User:Kotniski|Kotniski]], I specifically '''rejected''' your suggestion to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view&diff=next&oldid=354785289 rewrite entire policy]. Why are you rewriting ASF without a discussion first. [[User:QuackGuru|QuackGuru]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|talk]]) 17:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)