Wikipedia talk:Good article reassessment

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Second opinion on an individual GAR

I have been perfoming individual GARs as part of the GA sweeps project. The first couple of reassessments were great, as they led to substantial improvements. I'm having a hard time making up my mind on Great Pyramid of Giza. I'm not convinced that there is sufficient breadth of coverage (the construction theories section says that there are several theories but doesn't discuss them, and aside from the three main rooms, much of the inside of the pyramid isn't discussed). There is a separate article for construction theories, though. The reassessment is here. I've tried contacting all of the relevant projects twice, as well as major contributors, but I'm not getting anywhere. Another set of eyes would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, GaryColemanFan (talk) 20:10, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Procedural question. If this is a reassessment, shouldn't it be Talk:Great Pyramid of Giza/GA2, leaving Talk:Great Pyramid of Giza/GA1 for the original review? There could have been more than one prior review, though... --Una Smith (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Dual function of GAR

Could GA articles be nominated for review just like other articles? That would leave GAR for disputes about the appropriateness of reviews. --Una Smith (talk) 19:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

That exists, in a sense: it is called individual reassessment. See the instructions on this page. Geometry guy 20:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Abandoned GAR?

I've had a GAR open for Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader? (U.S. game show) for nearly a month now and nobody's commented. Did I leave a step out? Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 21:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

No, but you opened an individual reassessment, meaning that you intend to reassess and make the final decision yourself. If you would like input from the reviewing community, and a community decision on whether to list or delist, let me know, and I will help you restart it on that basis. Geometry guy 21:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Could someone take a look at Jackie Robinson Day?

I found this article through the Main Page and was quite surprised to see it listed as GA. It seems far from comprehensive, with scant references to substantial sources and weak prose. I haven't got the time, but could someone consider re-assessing? the skomorokh 19:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ireland GAR

A few days ago Malleus Fatuorum demoted Ireland without any notification other than initiating the GAR by notice before demoting it 15 minute later. When I questioned him about it, his reply seemed rather dimissive and uncooparative imho. I noticed that under the GAR individual reassessment instructions it specifically says "Allow time for other editors to respond. It is also courteous to notify major contributing editors or WikiProjects and the most recent GA reviewer." I don't see that that was done and though I am not a major contributing editor no notice was even given to the Ireland WikiProject either, so while the article may have some issues I think demoting from GA was improperly executed. Comments would be appreciated as Malleus Fatuorum has now gone into semi-retirement and his reply suggested bringing it here. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 01:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to go with Malleus in this delist. There are 3 "citation needed" tags and 1 "weasel" term present in the article. "Places of interest" is more like a list and only has 1 reference in the entire section. All you need is one "citation needed" or "weasel" tag to fail the good article criteria. And keep in mind that the GAR notice is for any case where GA is listed under GAR. You don't need to go through GAR to delist an article as long as you can confidently explain why you undertake such actions and how the article is measured against the criteria. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 04:08, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I was not asking for an opinion on whether the delisting was correct or not but if the process was properly executed. I would have been happy to try to fix the article's problems and so avoid delisting. So, according to the response it seems that OhanaUnited also agrees that not notification of the GAR needs to be given, either on the article talk page or the WikiProject even though it is a specific instruction and was never given in this case. That makes two editors who seem to ignore your own GAR instructions and seems disrespectful to other editors who might jump in to fix the issues before a decision is made. At least in FAR time is given for editors to come to an article's rescue but 15 minutes for a GAR is not enough time, no matter how awful an article may be. ww2censor (talk) 05:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The delisting guidelines are only guidelines, not instructions. I do wish reviewers would more often allow time for editors to respond (even a day or two is better than nothing) but this is a matter for reviewer discretion, particularly for articles which obviously need much work: reassessment is not a sickbed. I do not find Malleus' response dismissive, but helpful advice: improve and renominate!

The GA process is designed to make it easy to list articles and easy to delist articles. This means that GA status is not a right, which once attained, can only be removed with due reverence. Those who wish to maintain the GA status of an article should maintain and improve the article.

However, Ohana's comment that "All you need is one "citation needed" or "weasel" tag to fail the good article criteria." is wrong and is exactly the kind of bean counting that once gave GA a bad name. His final remarks are confusing: what he means, I think, is that community reassessment is not required for delisting (it never was). However all delisting decisions must be accompanied by a reassessment page. This one has one and therefore process has been followed. You can ask for a community reassessment if you disagree with Malleus' decision, but it seems you do not. Nor do I. Geometry guy 10:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason why I said about the "citation needed" tag is because it fails criteria 2(a) and the "weasel word" fails criteria 1(b). I have been tolerant on criteria 2(a) already, allowing one or two with citation needed tags to remain as GA especially if the article is very long. And please don't try to shift the blame to only one person (aka me). No personal attack please. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

My remark addressed the comment not the editor: that is not a personal attack. I am not trying to shift any blame for anything anywhere. There's no blame here to shift. I am only pointing out that nowhere in 2a ("it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline") or 2b ("reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose)") does it say there should be no "citation needed" tags, and nowhere in 1b ("it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation") does it say there should be no "weasel words" tags; further WP:WEASEL isn't even listed there. Any editor can add a tag at any time: that does not mean there is a valid concern. Reviewers should be encouraged to read the article and apply the criteria, not count tags. Geometry guy 17:05, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Although WEASEL is not listed outright, the spirit ideology is to avoid "ambiguous, uninformative, or non-specific", as stated in Words to avoid 1st section OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 02:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Just for clarification here, it is my view that Ww2censor is being disingenuous in his claim that I "demoted Ireland without any notification other than initiating the GAR by notice before demoting it 15 minute later." In fact I delisted it without any notification whatsoever. That the [[WP:GAR]] template was on the page for 15 minutes is irrelevant, as I already tried to explain. It was not there as any kind of notification of anything, simply as a convenient way of generating the review page. Neither did I delist the article simply because it had a few "citation needed" tags; I delisted it because it was (in my view) inadequately cited as per 2b, and the amount of work needed to correct that was substantial. I take issue with Ww2censor's remark that my reply to him was "dimissive and uncooparative", and would urge him to get to work fixing the article instead of wasting further time here. Unless that is, he believes that the article does in fact meet the GA criteria, in which case a community review would be appropriate.

I have never delisted an article lightly; in the case of Ireland I judged that the amount of work required was too much to be completed during the hold period. The fact that the work has not yet been done six days later, or even started, tends to reinforce my view rather than the reverse. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Malleus is one of the most careful and thorough reviewers at GA (most definitely not a bean-counter!), and has my complete support. Geometry guy 18:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Endorse MF and his delisting. YellowMonkey (click here to chose Australia's next top model!) 02:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I endorse the delisting. MF made a judgement call and acted within GA review guidelines. Majoreditor (talk) 13:15, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems most of you are focusing on the delisting and not on the process. I still believe that notification should be given per your own guidelines and is just common courtesy, especially for the main article of a WikiProject that is assessed as Top & High. At least with FAR and FA notification is given and time is allowed for editors to address outstanding issues but I get the impression you guys don't seem to care too much about that. If you all think notification is a guideline to be ignored, so be it. Perhaps the notification guideline should be made compulsory. Malleus may well be a careful GARer but it is still a pity you endorse such non-notification irrespective of the merits of delisting or not. As a side issue, of course someone can renominate it after addressing the issues Malleus mentioned but from experience regaining an article's previous status is normally more difficult than avoiding delisting. ww2censor (talk) 04:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Give it a rest. Fix the article and renominate. GA is not a God-given right. The process was correctly followed, as has been been made abundantly clear. Or if you can't fix the article then shut the fuck up. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 04:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)