Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Cirt

Alleged cavassing

I do not consider this to be canvassing, and in any case, it's had no immediate effect, as I responded to put off the work. Bearian (talk) 17:29, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Re: Outside view by Gamaliel

I agree that it looks like some of the charges are just throwing everything at him to see if something sticks. But there are also some legitimate charges in there as well. This RFC seems to be treating Cirt like OJ Simpson--like the police then, we're trying to frame someone who's guilty anyway. It's bad for the police to use bogus evidence, but ultimately, OJ did do the deed he was accused of. Ken Arromdee (talk) 19:36, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Gamaliel's comment seems to ridicule Jayen's evidence without any substantive analysis (which is rather ironic). I'd also like to add that Prioryman's claim about wikihounding is an exaggeration. I commented at the linked to discussion and Jayen was not "heavily criticized." Indeed the thread went nowhere and people suggested RFC/U as the appropriate courses of action if either editor had complaints about the other. On that point, the arbs also suggested RFC/U when they declined the RFAr that Coren started about Cirt and the Santorum issue. I don't see how posting notice to each arbitrator about the RFC/U individually (as opposed to on a much more public noticeboard) amounts to "canvassing." People should look at all the evidence and decide for themselves what may or may not have merit. Many will undoubtedly find, as Ken has, that even if some of it seems overly ambitious there are very clearly troubling bits in there as well. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 20:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

If there's a legitimate charge in there I'd like to know what it is. It would save us all so much time. Wnt (talk) 20:38, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

For example, (1) biasing Wikimedia pre-election content relating to two US elections in favour of the candidates preferred by Anonymous, involving both the Wikipedia and Wikiquote main pages. (2) Multiple violations of WP:BLPSPS. --JN466 21:19, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Because you're planning to take my word for it? Cirt's involvement with political articles during elections is very troubling. I think his other promotional writing, like the Daryl Wine Bar article is also troubling, but less so because BLP issues are invovled with the political stuff not to mention gaming the encyclopedia to advance real life political interests. Those who have commented that Cirt has puffed up articles for both Democrats and Republicans fail to acknowledge that his interests in these matters clearly don't fall in line with party politics. The pattern her is clear by the way. Cirt has not only puffed these articles up when it mattered (ongoing elections or recent announcements of running for office), but he's worked as hard as he could to get maximum exposure through things like DYK. When someone engages in this kind of puffery they edit against WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. One of the additional aspects of all this that Jayen has not even mentioned is that Cirt's puffery has caused a serious amount of disruption in multiple venues related to the good faith efforts of others to curtail his politicking. It took 2 AfDs to delete both the Dickson and Daryl Wine Bar articles (articles that very clearly never belonged in the encyclopedia). During the process Cirt dragged editors to AN/I and otherwise contributed to a very unproductive atmosphere in order to defend his work. That was what bothered me most. That people who are just trying to do their job and keep the encyclopedia filled with good quality encyclopedic content all of a sudden had to suffer harassment at AN/I and all kinds of accusations of incivility, hounding, etc. because they didn't have the social capital he had. Yet they were right all along. That's not something we need around here. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, if that is your view, why don't you draw up an Outside view? I'll sign up to that. :) The RfC/U is already a lot to read; there are lots of other issues in a similar vein that could have been added. Some of the ones you mention are touched upon in the AN/I threads linked towards the bottom, in the Canvassing section, i.e.

• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive644#Philip_Baird_Shearer_-_block_review
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive649#Behaviour_of_admin_Cirt_in_content_disputes
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Potential_WP:CANVASSING_by_User:Cirt--JN466 21:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

While I personally have the opinion that OJ did it, if I were on that jury I could not have convicted him... because the police were so busy trying to frame him, badly, that they introduced far too much reasonable doubt. It's deeply troubling to hear someone say "we're trying to frame someone who's guilty anyway". Look closely at that statement: It admits that one is providing false evidence or false testimony in order to falsely prove someone guilty of a crime, but justifies it by assuming the role of judge and jury, declaring guilt without evidence or due process. The statement is, in short, vigilantism, and I don't see how such is compatible with Wikipedia's Pillars. It sure isn't WP:PROVEIT. Besides, comparing Cirt's editing with the brutal stabbing death of two people...? // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not trying to justify framing anyone, I'm saying that yes, I agree with Gamaliel that many of the charges against Cirt are absurd and are an attempt to get him in any way we can--the one about the two recipes probably being the worst--but there do seem to be some genuinely bad things in there as well. We *are* trying to frame a guilty person, and it's *not* good that we're doing that. Bring up things that he has actually done and stop making things up. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:47, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like we're in agreement there, then! My personal preference would be for this RfC/U to be closed out, and a new one opened by someone who does not have a long and antagonistic history with Cirt, addressing the specific behaviors that are troublesome, rather than trying to pillory him. It seems to me like we need more "stern intervention meeting" and less hatchet job. It'd be more productive. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 16:36, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I disagree. Several people at FAC commented that they felt they were being "sold" the book. The FAC failed; if it hadn't, the article on the bacon book would one day have turned up on our main page. The article's lead says, " "The book received positive reviews, and its recipes were selected for inclusion in The Best American Recipes 2003–2004." That is making a lot of the fact that two recipes were thus included. Why not just say, "two of its recipes were included"? Yes, seen in isolation, it's trivial. If you see it a dozen times, you go Ahem. If you see it a hundred times, you get pissed off. The difference between you and me is simply that you've not seen it as often. Partridge, at santorum, was another wonderful example of twisting a source in such a way that, although what was said was strictly speaking "verifiable", it completely misrepresented that source to the reader, to support a POV in favour of that term. This from an editor who is a master at quoting out of context (Cirt: "[Gloria] Gaynor worked her way through Scientology"; source: "Gaynor worked her way though Scientology, transcendental meditation, and Buddhism [on her search for a spiritual home]" and fights tooth and nail against having that put right. But I can understand that to someone who comes to this with fresh eyes, it is not compelling. So I'm all in favour of concentrating on the more material points. Cheers, --JN466 17:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I am completely unconvinced. Am I supposed to believe that in that text Cirt was trying to convince readers that the whole book was selected for inclusion in Best American Recipes? These seem like incredibly picayune things to pull up - especially by comparison to deletionists, for whom it's always their way or the highway, who make up a dozen bogus reasons to exclude something because they don't like it. Deletionists are all about the raw exercise of power, but for inclusionists, knowledge is the more important, and I cannot support a plan to punish an inclusionist for a few dubiously rough edges in a vast body of work. Wnt (talk) 23:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Timing of santorum edits

• On May 9, Cirt made five edits to Santorum (neologism), primarily adding a response by Santorum that in my view substantially improved the article's NPOV. [1] Prior to this, he had not been a substantial contributor to the page for at least a year. [2]
• On May 9, at 11 p.m. EDT, Jon Stewart suggested that users search Google for the term "santorum", leading the term to become one of Google's top hits. [3][4]
• On the afternoon of May 10, Cirt began seriously editing the article. In the course of 14 hours, he made the majority of 100 edits by six users. [5] This all occurred after the term became newly newsworthy and notable thanks to Jon Stewart.

So, based on the timeline, there is a perfectly credible alternative to the "pure political motivation" theory for Cirt's edits. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 20:55, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Page view stats bear out the link to Jon Stewart's show. On 10 May, the day after it was broadcast, views of the article went up from 1,900 on 9 May to over 149,000 on 10 May. [6] Note that Santorum didn't announce his campaign formally until 6 June. [7] Stewart's show is the only conceivable factor that could have produced that usage spike. Prioryman (talk) 21:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yeah, I'm having real trouble understanding the complaint... if something happens to make a topic suddenly far richer in reliable sources overnight, apparently what you should not do is make use of them and go digging for others that might have been missed? I guess I've been doing this Wikipedia editing thing all wrong... // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 21:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the Jon Stewart show. The article Macwhiz posted, published on the day after the show, described Santorum as a "presidential hopeful". Apparently, "On Monday night's Daily Show, Stewart ran down the list of lesser-known presidential [hopefuls] and encouraged viewers to Google them." --JN466 21:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

It's surprising that you weren't aware of it, considering that information about it was added (not by Cirt) to the article only a few hours after it was broadcast. [8] It's still there now in an amended form under "Reception and political impact", which says: "[Stewart's] reference to it in May 2011 caused the word to be one of the most queried search terms on Google the following day". Surely you must have read the article you've been campaigning against? Prioryman (talk) 21:16, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Jayen, I think that's where a lot of the consternation from "the other side" at santorum came from: that Daily Show clip generated tons of press in RSes, and fed interest in the term... leading to the reinforcement of the PageRank for Savage's page (and likely ours). If Cirt hadn't done it, someone else would have: bet you'd find a history of page expansions following notable usages on Stewart or Colbert's shows. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 21:17, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, the timing is certainly close. Cirt started editing the article on 9 May, 22:21 UTC. That's 17:21 Eastern time, and probably a few hours before Stewart's late-night show. But I agree Stewart's show covering the presidential hopefuls, and subsequent press coverage, cast a spotlight on the issue. --JN466 21:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

This is neither horseshoes nor hand grenades, though. As for the five edits Cirt made on the 9th, adding Santorum's POV to the article, I note that one of them was an article published on April 28—just 11 days earlier. This implies to me that Cirt was not exactly tending the article at the time. It is, however, consistent with an editor finding a recent source that has not yet been assimilated, and then finding other material in the process of balancing out the article. That's normal editing. Frankly, unless someone wants to present unequivocal evidence that Cirt was somehow collaborating with Dan Savage and Jon Stewart to hype the article before it made the news thanks to Stewart—which would be an absurd allegation—I think this has to be chalked up to coincidence. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. That whole complaint stinks of a witch hunt. That the complainants completely ignore the very obvious explanation for why the article ballooned in size and visibility and instead, along with SlimVirgin accuse Cirt of being in cahoots with Savage is deplorable. Even assuming that they legitimately did not know about Stewart's piece at the time that they compiled their complaints, it seriously suggests they were looking for things to complain about, rather than addressing real issues. The point about YouTube videos is just as patently ridiculous. The complainants may have some legitimate points in regards to problem behaviour by Cirt, but they've poisoned their case by including such suspiciously weak claims, and I can't see this rfcu going forward as a result. Just a lesson for next time: quality over quantity. Don't throw 20 complaints into the wild and see what sticks; research each one well and only include ones that can stand up to scrutiny. Throwaway85 (talk) 04:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Throwaway there is no "case" here to be poisoned. An RFC is not an all or nothing proposition. The initiator has made several claims about Cirt. If there are legitimate points in there then those should be noted and dealt with. If others bring up legitimate points same goes for that. To disregard "legitimate points" because you think others are not as legitimate does a disservice to the community and to the RFC process more specifically. Please remember also that the RFC does not result in sanctions. Its very purpose is to air these kinds of claims so that others in the community can evaluate them and determine which ones might require further action if any.Griswaldo (talk) 12:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, the readily-checked claims are either flimsy or trumped-up, so some of the other claims that depend on deep research into article histories get discounted: why go to the work of researching the minutae when everything else seems to be (how to be civil here?) lacking the full details to present a balanced view? It begs for TL;DR. There's also claims that depend not on objective evidence, but subjective evaluation of a vast editing history. I find it hard to invest the work in trying to find evidence of bad faith on Cirt's part when the evidence of good faith on the part of some of his accusers is so tenuous. I'm not saying that I couldn't be persuaded, nor that I think Cirt is perfect; I'm just saying that so far, this RfC/U isn't persuasive. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 16:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

That is why I said, at the top of the RfC/U, Users are advised that understanding the problem requires a close review of several lengthy articles. Please do not comment until you have reviewed the article versions indicated. Thank you., and repeated at three points in the RfC/U, Before reading on, please review this article version for neutrality. We cannot arrive at a serious work result when people are prepared to spend 2 hours on posting and reading drive-by comments, but are not prepared to invest two hours in going from an RfC/U from top to bottom, following the indicated links, and then writing a considered and informed opinion. You said, For example, it's implied that the Corbin Fisher article was a promotional piece. Having read the full contents of the leaked conversation between Cirt, SlimVirgin, and Shell Kinney, I did not get this impression. From reading the conversation between SlimVirgin and Cirt? SlimVirgin's stance in the leaked conversation between her and Cirt will not make sense to you unless you have read the article that the conversation was about. TL;DR is not the correct method to respond to an RfC/U. --JN466 18:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

And what we're (or at least I am) saying is that it's pretty unreasonable to expect people to go through all of the trouble of reading every edit to an article before arriving at a decision when you don't go through the trouble of realizing the very simple reason behind the Santorum article so quickly gaining in size and popularity (sure he DYK'd it, but it would have been grossly expanded anyway), or why he would include the "Message to Scientology" video, or any of the other things that showed a lack of understanding and research on your part. When I said you've poisoned your "case", I meant it. It's damned hard to convince a large group of people that there's a problem with Cirt's behaviour when so much of your evidence is so clearly flawed. It's not just bad, it's self-evidently bad to anyone with the most cursory understanding of surrounding events. It's for that reason that I, and others, have described this as having the appearances of a witch hunt. Rather than a considered critique of Cirt's behaviour, your evidence reads as a throw-the-spaghetti-against-the-wall attempt to list as many things as possible in the hopes the community is outraged at one of them, or sufficiently encumbered by the weight of the evidence to be unable to come to any sensible conclusion. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the evidence you've presented does very little to convince me that there's a problem with Cirt's editing, and that makes me think there are ulterior motives, here. That conclusion is only buoyed by the leaked emails between Cirt and SlimVirgin. It was obvious that both of them were playing political games and scheming and trying to lure the other into saying something that could be used against them, and I have neither the time nor desire to involve myself in that bullshit. That the complaints presented here in large part mirror SV's complaints suggest that this is an extension of her politicking, and the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm not going to defend Cirt, and I'm also not going to condemn him based on what is clearly an ongoing political struggle between rival groups on Wikipedia. Throwaway85 (talk) 19:20, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, what Throwaway said. You're asking me to devote hours to researching myriad issues as "background" before understanding your claims. In deciding whether I'd rather spend my time doing that or, say, productively editing the encyclopedia, I look first at the easier-to-verify claims. I don't think I'm alone in this. In this case, those claims came up short. I am not saying that none of your claims have any merit, or that I won't look into them; I'm saying that, because you chose to include some real reaches, a person could easily reach the conclusion "the easy-to-check claims have no merit, so it's unlikely that the others do" and not bother to look further. It would have been better to concentrate on one or two things and clearly lay out the timeline, with appropriate diffs. Instead, much of what the RfC/U links to is either picayune, or makes those opposing Cirt look at least as bad as what the RfC/U claims Cirt has done. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 00:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

FYI, here's an article about an earlier plug for the neologism on the Colbert Report from February 2011.[9] and here's one from a week earlier with a Google screen shot showing the Wikipedia article was already the #2 hit for "santorum".[10]   Will Beback  talk  23:28, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Quotation of Anonymous forum postings

The link given as evidence for the Anonymous forum: [11]

• The message Jayen selectively quoted as evidence is numbered #18.
• The message I quoted as saying Cirt is ethical is numbered #13.
• Cirt's name entered the thread in message #6, apparently from someone looking to see which editor performed a "cleanup" of David Miscavige. Interestingly, while the RfC/U seems to be trying to paint Cirt as a rabid anti-Scientologist, the folks on this anti-Scientology forum were concerned that he was making pro-Scientology edits—and perhaps even a Scientologist plant himself. The later comments #13 and #18 were by way of refuting those concerns.

Personally, I think that it speaks well of Cirt's contributions to that area if both the pro- and anti- forces are concerned that he's pushing the other side's POV. If you're pissing off both sides, you must be doing something right. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 21:04, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

The David Miscavige edits discussed at that board, by the way, were in response to a BLPN thread: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive96#David_Miscavige. I don't think Cirt would deny that he has links with Anonymous. He has stated that he knows Xenubarb, and contacted her for assistance on the campaign articles. Gregg Housh follows Cirt on scribd (as do Jason Beghe, and Mike Godwin, for that matter :) ). Cirt has uploaded tons of Anonymous videos to Commons, and has freely admitted joining Wikinews originally with a focus of reporting on that one issue. [12] Project Chanology is his most-edited article in Wikipedia. That's all fine; but I don't think it should induce an admin to actually set out to bias Wikimedia content pre-election in such a pronounced manner, using two projects' main pages. It's not good for this project to be used as an electioneering aid. --JN466 21:30, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Please don't play "guilt by association". Knowing someone, even to the extent that you could ask their assistance in obtaining a copyright signoff from someone they know, isn't the same thing as being an associate of someone. I know someone who works on the crew of CSI, but that doesn't mean I'm associated with their chronic use of invalid IP addresses. We all know someone who has done something that other people don't like, without being in any way associated with their actions. (Or worse, not even knowing someone, but being observed by someone is not proof of taint!) Scientology is a hot topic on Wikipedia, and I fear that "He's (pro-|anti-)Scientology!" is the Wikipedia equivalent of "He supports terrorism!" at this point.

Reading the BLPN thread you linked and the associated talk-page discussion, I see what looks like WP:BRD, with Cirt making a number of deletions to make Jayen and Resident Anthropolgist happy. It looks like good collegial editing to me.

Per your link, I see Cirt saying "I know I focused on a particular topic when I started out here and was learning the ropes, but I have since attempted to diversify the type of articles I write, contributing to 10 articles on other unrelated topics." I don't think this is an uncommon thing. If I look at your edit history, Jayen, I see you concentrating on a small number of articles in a narrow range of topics in your early days, too—but I would not now try to paint you as unhealthily obsessed with cars and Indian mysticism.

I am still nowhere near convinced that you have made the case that Cirt is using Wikipedia as "an electioneering aid", and by the arguments in this RfC/U, I'm left to wonder if any editing of political articles would be acceptable during political silly season under this line of argument. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 22:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

"Promise made by Cirt to Lar, Scott MacDonald"

The RfC/U has a section, WP:Requests for comment/Cirt#Promise made by Cirt to Lar, Scott MacDonald, which claims "Cirt... does the opposite of what he said he would do", claiming Lar and Scott MacDonald felt Cirt had not kept his promise as a justification for the claim. I find this to be an incomplete version of events.

Reading the linked discussion [13], I see that Lar did raise concerns, but appeared to accept Cirt's clarification that he had reduced, rather than eliminated, edits on Scientology-related topics. His undertaking, quoted by Scott Mac, used the terms "shift my focus away from" and "avoid", which aren't absolutes. Lar and Sadads defended Cirt against Scott in the thread. It was pointed out that the articles in question were edited primarily due to Cirt's concentration on freedom of speech–related articles at the time, and were tangentially related to Scientology. Further, the whole incident was the result of a posting at Wikipedia Review, not on-wiki criticism. I don't see Cirt "doing the opposite of what he said he would do"; I see people not reading carefully and presuming that Cirt said something he did not.

What I found interesting was reading this after reading Scott Mac's position on Delicious carbuncle's first ARBSCI enforcement request against Cirt. Scott Mac wanted sanctions against Cirt, while other admins found Carbuncle's request faulty and not actionable. While both editors were warned, the sense I get of the comments is that several editors found Carbuncle "seem[ed] as if he instigated this conflict" and "clearly the dubious party here". (In fact, the comments were more pointed when Carbuncle filed a second request within an hour of the first request being closed.) See Future Perfect at Sunrise's comments here: [14] "Apparently, D.c. has been on a long campaign against Cirt, having posted about him extensively both on Wikipedia and on Wikipediareview for several months." In fact, digging further, I found that Cirt had previously sought, and obtained, an indefinite topic ban against Carbuncle from ARBSCI. [15] It worries me that there seems to be a certain list of names that keep appearing when criticism of Cirt is to be found, and that every time I look into the disputes, I seem to find Cirt acting with reason, consideration, good faith, and an intent to find a solution... and the disputants, not so much. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Lar and Sadads defended Cirt against Scott in the thread. Say what now? Sadads appears to defend Cirt every-time he involves himself with related discussions, which by the look of it is quite often, but how on earth do you get Lar "defend[ing] Cirt against Scott" in that thread? To Quote Lar: "Nevertheless, I think Scott asks legitimate questions about your area of focus. I think you should answer them rather than taking umbrage," and "I applaud your reduction. I just think you should go all the way." (emphasis added). Just because Lar is being very civil and extremely tactful doesn't mean he's defending Cirt. Also the admins disagreeing with Scott in the AE request are Jehochman and Doc James who both seem to have a history of supporting Cirt from what I can tell, and that was brought up in relation to the AE request. You say you are worried about the same names appearing in these discussions. 1) I hope you are also including the same names that appear to defend Cirt and to accuse those who call some of his edits into question of hounding and other disruptive behavior. 2) I think you ought to dig further to see if the "same names" that are critical of Cirt's editing now have always been of that mind or if specific events precipitated this, and if those events are related to the later moments of involvement. You should especially consider the idea that if a problem is repeating itself without solution editors who feel that they understand the problem will most likely continue to try to have it solved. Do these editors have anything to gain from criticizing Cirt? Are they POV opponents of his? What is their motive? If you would WP:AGF for just one second you might realize that just maybe some of these people are simply concerned about something they feel is harmful to Wikipedia, its community and/or its editing environment.Griswaldo (talk) 12:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I do not defend Cirt in everything, in fact I have expressed to him on multiple occassions that he should probably be redirecting his productivity on wiki to topic areas which have a little less controversy associated with them. However, I am just extremely alarmed at the aggressiveness of the rhetoric and persecution of him. The way in which various individuals have taken to trying to change Cirt's behaviour is extremely inappropriate and could have been handled with, for lack of a better way to describe the behaviour, more maturity. We are (or at least should be) a community built on principles of good faith, and I make it my business to defend individuals, who are likely humanly flawed, when they are persecuted aggressively without due cause, Sadads (talk) 01:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Troubled

I see that Cla68 (talk · contribs) has started a section which is entitled "Cirt's enablers", which I find troubling because it looks like the start of a type of "hit list". I'm not sure that this is constructive... although, I suppose that one faction enumerating those who they view to be the members of their opposition may be helpful, if there's really some confusion about that or something. I guess that I'm just wondering what the point of this is? Is the intent here to attack other editors because they are friendly towards Cirt?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:04, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

This is indeed troubling, and looks like the out-of-process extension of the RfC/U to other disliked editors, who won't even have the basic protections of RfC/U prerequisites or the built-in space for a response. As it stands now, it serves to intimidate those editors who would offer a dissenting view to the certifiers of the RfC/U. When populated with names, it will only tar certain editors as "activists" and "bullies" by association. Insofar as this "hit list" makes no pretense towards dispute resolution or constructive dialogue, it offers a window into the motivations of the overall RfC/U on Cirt. Quigley (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the "enablers" section is unlikely to be helpful, and I would urge Cla68 to delete it. However, I would object to discrediting the RfC/U on this basis — preferring, instead, to WP:AGF and assume that Cla68 honestly believes that "These editors may be driven by a good faith respect for Cirt's editing ability and work". We should concentrate on Cirt's conduct and whether Cirt should modify his/her behaviour, and leave to another time (if ever) the question of whether or not other editors' actions may have contributed to the situation (if indeed there is a "situation" here). Richwales (talk · contribs) 05:27, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, it looks like he's refactored it into a statement in defense of DC and JN, which seems acceptable to me. Thanks for considering this criticism, Cla. :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 06:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Elections

Is anyone unclear about the election-related evidence? Hiram Monserrate and Jeff Stone were disliked by Anonymous [16][17]. As a result, their opponents Kenneth Dickson, Joel Anderson and Jose Peralta had political advertisements written for them, and featured on the Wikipedia (and Wikiquote) main page in the run-up to the elections. Are you all right with the ethics of this? Do you feel that being able to place such content on project main pages is a reasonable perk due to a prolific Wikimedia contributor? --JN466 12:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

• There is a related, standalone view: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Cirt#Editing_around_16_March_2010_New_York_State_Senate_election.2C_and_June_8_2010_Republican_primary_for_the_California_State_Senate --JN466 14:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Predictions

1) People who supported the continued existence of the santorum article, friends of Cirt and various uninvolved parties will support Cirt.

2) People who opposed the santorum article, those who hold a grudge against Cirt and those who have prior disagreements with him will support JN466.

3) Cirt will get a kicking from JN466's supporters.

4) JN466 will get a kicking from Cirt's supporters.

5) There will be a lot of futile bickering.

6) Nothing productive will come of this RfC/U.

7) After this RfC/U has failed, JN466 will continue pursuing Cirt until the community finally gets fed up and imposes an interaction ban on both of them. Prioryman (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Cirt should stop doing things that are worth pursuing? Tarc (talk) 19:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps he/she should also stop beating his husband or wife? Prioryman (talk) 20:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

But many of the things identified by critics of Cirt as "problems" are not seen as problems by many other editors: expanding the santorum article, writing articles on Dan Savage books, DYK submissions, etc. We can find a way to deal with whatever Cirt does that everyone sees as problematic (promotional tone, etc.), but I'm not sure how we bridge the gap with the larger issues when so many editors don't think they are issues at all. Gamaliel (talk) 20:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

They are not seen as problems by like-minded editors. Clique-editing is not a new Wikipedia phenomenon. Tarc (talk) 21:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

So everyone who disagrees with the RFC is in the wrong clique? Perhaps you should start another RFC on all of us. Gamaliel (talk) 21:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I removed a box to hide and archive this conversation, because in truth, it is illuminating. Anyone reading the RfC page should recognize that this is a political trial, in which we are debating over what should be allowed, not what Cirt did. The question we really need to ask is, is there a path to peace? It's one thing to have normal arguments over content - it's another thing to have two political parties arguing over every word as a tactic toward radically different visions of Wikipedia. Is there some way that we can avoid having constant battles over whether most of what is in an article should be taken out, whether articles should be deleted, whether editors should be punished for trying to make articles or otherwise take part in the normal process of promoting them? I mean, could we fork the project, let the deletionists compress the content into a Micropedia while the inclusionists could build up a Macropedia? Anything? Wnt (talk) 23:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

This debate doesn't have a thing to do with the deletionistism vs. inclusionism wiki-war. If you really think that this is what it is been about this whole time, well, naive is about the mildest thing I can say here. This is about Cirt deliberately violating WP:BLP policy by using the Wikipedia to propagate Dan Savage's anti-Santorum crusade. This is about Cirt elevating a concocted slur into a "neologism", using questionable sourcing to try to show the word being used in everyday English. This is about Cirt gaming DYK to increase the visibility of Dan Savage's books, thus elevating the visibility of the small-s "santorum" shtick...also accomplished by edit-warring the faux word into several sex-related templates while creating another entirely new one (now-deleted) to spotlight it. And you, Wnt, have been a part of this. A co-conspirator, accomplice, whatever colorful term we can find. You and many others, deliberately and royally fucking this place up by using it to further your personal ideological bent.

I think the above is what they proverbially call "throwing down the gauntlet", so, there you go. Tarc (talk) 23:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

So then this is an attempt to re-legislate the whole santorum saga?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is. This is exactly the point I was trying to illustrate above. A few hours after it had been cited on Jon Stewart's show, producing a massive spike in usage and public interest, Cirt expanded an article; he added the term to a handful of templates in which it was only one of dozens of other linked articles; and he wrote several DYKs, none of which linked to or even mentioned the dispute article, as far as I saw. As many other editors have said, that is normal editing behaviour. When Sarah Palin made up some well-publicised nonsense about Paul Revere, it started a lot of editors working on that article. Same with the Japanese earthquake, the civil war in Libya and so on. Nothing that Cirt did appears to have affected the page ranking of Wikipedia's Santorum (neologism) article, nor could it have, as it was already at or almost at the top of search engine results months before he started editing it. I think that Tarc and others are seeing Cirt's edits through an ideological prism - Tarc's disapproval of the Santorum article is leading him to assign improper motives to Cirt's reasons for editing it. From what I've seen of this dispute, which first came to my notice at DYK, there is no reasonable evidence that Cirt was attempting to game search engine rankings for the article. Did people ever stop to think what the point of that would be when the article is already at the top of search engine results? Bottom line, this is a political dispute - all that this RfC/U is going to achieve is to give the Santorum partisans (on both sides) somewhere to vent. Prioryman (talk) 00:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't know that it's so much of an ideological issue (although that's certainly an aspect, since if they shared the ideology that they attribute to Cirt I doubt there would be complaints), but there's certainly an interpersonal issue here (personalities clashing, which I think that you're properly describing as a "political dispute"). I suspect that you're correct about "Tarc's disapproval of the Santorum article is leading him to assign improper motives to Cirt's reasons for editing it." for sure, but he's not the only one doing so. One thing though is that giving people a place to "vent" isn't a bad thing in my opinion, and it's certainly not pointless.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

The only path to peace I see, short of forking the project, is to allow people to build articles from reliably sourced material without accusing them of promoting the subject simply because they want to work on it; without accusing them of breaking BLP by covering people involved in controversies with other people; without selectively decrying the promotional effect of templates and DYKs only when they support a point of view you don't like. And that is accomplished by clarifying that policy indeed does not and shall not prohibit these things. In other words, for the inclusionists to win. ;)

While I understand it may be "naive" to characterize this as inclusionists versus deletionists rather than Anonymous versus Scientology or Democrats versus Republicans, there's a reason: because the latter debates are affected by the simple truth that one side has a lot of facts on its side. So the other has a lot of facts to hide. And so inclusionism becomes associated with one side of many different wiki debates - and always the right side, regardless of the issue. Wnt (talk) 02:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

<Turns to JN466 *kick*> OK, my part is done here. :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:09, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Ooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuch! --JN466 00:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

*grin*
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:26, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding points 3 and 4: I'll kick 'em both! The way I see it, Cirt has a blind spot when it comes to being too positive, and Jayen has a blind spot when it comes to Cirt. Neither blind spot makes either editor a bad person, nor merits their removal from the project dragging them in front of every tribunal Wikipedia has to offer, especially when one has a history of withdrawing from confrontation to the point where it's fair to wonder if they'll be driven to leave altogether. I don't hate either of them, nor am I devoted to either of 'em. I'm here because I'm a pretty good writer and researcher, and I want part of my legacy to this planet to be a net increase in humanity's knowledge. Wikipedia's a good way to do that. Helping other editors past their blind spots works toward that goal. I don't think this RfC/U does that. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Where does the idea that anyone should be "removed from the project" come from in the first place. I see the claim getting kicked all over this talk page that people want Cirt removed, but what is the source of that because I don't see it anywhere?Griswaldo (talk) 02:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I can only plead that I should not have posted that when I was so tired. Reading it again, I see that I failed to fully type out part of my thoughts, and as such wound up with a misstatement. I have corrected it. While I don't see anyone actually calling for Cirt's expulsion, I look at Cirt's historical reaction to these occasional dogpiles (namely, withdrawing from areas of editing), and I believe that no one can reasonably believe that this RfC/U won't end with a further withdrawal. At some point, after enough withdrawals, there's nothing left; one is implicitly removed from the project. See my longer statement below. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:25, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikihounders vs Whistleblowers

One of the accusations against Cirt in this RfC/U is that he did not come to an article "organically". While this is framed as an issue of "honesty" and "deceit" for Cirt, the same burden to come upon articles "organically" is not held to Cirt's accusers. The view by Pieter Kuiper is a prime example. He complains that he did one action, "fixed a deletion request on Commons of some of those anti-Scientology video files of his", which "got me on his/her list of ideological adversaries" and got him banned. However, the AE request he points to shows a more complex and common pattern of Cirt's enemies. Like Cla68, who was incited by Cirt's edits on "List of Scientologists", certain people cannot resist following the edit histories of those with whom they've had a minor dispute, and habitually reversing their actions the follower thinks is unjustified.

As evidenced by Cirt's AE thread, Pieter Kuiper did this by following Cirt out of commons into en.wiki, finding fault in Cirt's created article about Aaron Saxton, and then again in the "List of Scientologists" article, and then declining one of Cirt's DYKs with an unusually combative reason. It was Pieter Kuiper's edit-warring against Cirt to keep these changes in an area with active Arbcom remedies, among other things, that got him banned; not Wikilawyer magic. It is clear that Pieter Kuiper already decided himself an "ideological adversary" to Cirt before Cirt even filed the complaint.

But Jayen466 does not see it this way, endorsing Kuipel's summary with the lament that this AE action "never got overturned". It is fair to assume that Cla68 has a similarly sympathetic view, considering Cla68's section "whistleblower protection", formerly "Cirt's enablers", recasts those who point out behavior like Pieter Kuipel's as bullies or intimidators. However, it would go a long way towards resolving the dispute if the battleground mentality were dropped, and the Wikihounding policy reexamined. The connotations of "whistleblower" and "shooting the messenger", both used by opponents of Cirt in this conflict, suggest that Cirt is some pervasive juggernaut that must be stopped, and that following and disputing his every last edit to the death is justified, if not a duty for all good Wikipedians. However, if Cirt were to be treated as a fallable human being, who can feel annoyance and distress at the caravan of microscopic scrutiny surrounding him, encouraged by certain off-wiki sites; if his concessions in topic areas were to be taken as the basis of a solution instead of a signal to go for the kill, then a key component of what should be an acceptable solution to both parties will have appeared before our very eyes.

Taking from DGG's proposed remedy, in any desired outcome, those who feel themselves Cirt's "ideological adversaries" should relieve themselves of Cirtwatch duty. Already, this RfC/U has attracted the attention of previously uninvolved members who would take up the mantle. This way, the perception among those sympathetic to Cirt that he is being "Wikihounded" will cease, and the perception among Cirt's accusers that they are the victims of "bullying" for these accusations will cease. It is natural for those accused of both Wikihounding and bullying to take an absolutist stance, and to argue that objectively, one of these exists, and the other is a fabrication. But perceptions are powerful, and regardless of the relative merits of each accusation, this proposed component of a solution will eradicate the potential for an explosion of bad feelings on both sides, wherever Cirt's editing is organically brought up. Thoughts? Quigley (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh my, "So what?" is unusuallly combative? For me, a yawn is the natural response to the question: "Did you know that Australian Senator Nick Xenophon quoted statements by former Scientology official Aaron Saxton during a speech in Parliament?" The only people utterly fascinated by this kind of thing are people obsessed with scientology. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 20:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The extreme pro- and anti-cult editing are often hard to tell apart. Same tone, same obsessionality with trivia. SlimVirgin ^{TALK|CONTRIBS} 20:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Quigley, there is a lot of sense in what you are saying. On the other hand, it's not for nothing that Cirt has attracted attention on that website. His strong POV; his prolific contributions (who can keep up with someone who makes 4,000 edits a month?), his frequent contributions to "loaded" topics (like a critic's book, a lost lawsuit, etc.); his combativeness and knack to get opponents sanctioned—these are all factors that have contributed to that. Pieter, for example, did not "find fault" when he corrected Saxton's birthdate, he "found an error and corrected it". He was still templated. When Cirt created Werner Erhard vs. Columbia Broadcasting System, he prominently and at length discussed allegations of incest made against Erhard (a living person), but failed to mention that these allegations were later retracted. He mentioned tax issues, but didn't mention that it was the IRS who later on paid Erhard $200,000 in damages. I wish there were more editors who looked at these articles; as it was, Cirt gave those who did look at it to make it NPOV, after it came up at AfD, a very hard time [18]. Cirt took one of his disputants there, User:THF, to WP:COIN [19] and WP:ANI [20] on the same day (over THF's actions at a different article), all while his Erhard-related dispute with THF, which had started at the article's AFD the previous day, was ongoing. That's the sort of stuff that gets you noticed at WR, and legitimately so. --JN466 23:11, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't get it

I'm looking at the evidence presented here, and... I mean, I'm really trying hard to see and understand the criticism, but... I can see some minor issues, I guess, but from what I can see they're easily mitigated by the fact that, while it may not actually be "hounding", there's certainly a bit of a "battlefield mentality" that both factions have fostered. I don't consider myself part of the "clique" (which is what Tarc apparently sees), but if some of you want to include me in it just because I'm more on Cirt's 'side' here then on JN's then I'm fine with that. Y'all seem like fairly reasonable people (I've talked to JN466 on the VP about that essay, for example. He listened to what I had to say, which tells me that he's hardly unreasonable), and everyone involved here seem to be veterans. This seems like a series of content dispute skirmishes that have been steadily building up to something like this occurring.

I guess that I'm wondering... is this really about Cirt specifically, or is it a wider issue (I mean, Cirt is obviously at the center of this, but...)? Are there actually a couple of multi-party factions here? Maybe RFC/U, with it's inherent set of "rules" and standards, isn't the best venue for this?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:22, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

multiply the minor issues by the over 2,000 edits per month rate. I edit kinda regularly and 200 is a lot in a month. each incident is not a big deal. the fact that there is one every month or multiple ones on the same month is the issue. The user's sheer volume and dedication to work on the project are what makes the bias, forum shopping, and requests to shoot the messenger about them such a problem. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Cirt's editing rate has dropped significantly since at least 14 June (weeks before this RfC/U), where he indicated that he was going to "reduce [his] activity level significantly" and "shift efforts in new areas of interest", which he has done, to U.S. Supreme Court cases. Quigley (talk) 23:51, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Yea, there's nothing quite like getting the fuck outta Dodge after you've just lit several fires, is there? Tarc (talk) 23:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

The certifiers' stated desired outcome is not to punish Cirt for alleged past wrongs, but to amend Cirt's future behavior. If this is an honest statement of intent, then they might have already succeeded. Quigley (talk) 00:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

So this is where I'm a bit confused. Cirt's editing rates seem to be the main issue, which really make me wonder about the motivation here. Is "contributing too often" really going to be something that we're going to turn into a problem? Don't you guys think that this will have wider implications then any effect on Cirt? ...This whole thing just gives me a creepy feeling. There appears to be a significant amount of anger and resentment on the part of the "anti-Cirt" crowd, just below the surface. If the problem is that our content seems to be slanted, then the solution to that seems obvious to me (and the solution shouldn't be to attempt to get rid of other content editors).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

It's becoming obvious, I think, that the aim is to get rid of Cirt or at the least to make it impossible for him to contribute without being hounded at every turn. I'm a newbie to this dispute (I only learned of it when it spilled onto DYK) but there seem to be two things going on here - a long-running dispute between JN466/Carbuncle and Cirt relating to Scientology (or cults in general?), and a newer dispute over the Santorum article. It seems to me that the long-running disputants have taken advantage of the most recent dispute to try to go after Cirt with this RfC/U. As an aside, I agree about getting a creepy feeling, not least because of comments like this: "I am intending to do a monthly thread here about Cirt's Scientology edits, because I would like to help them kick their nasty habit. Cirt, I don't say this in a mean way, but when you edit articles related to Scientology, it makes your fingers and breath smell like Scientology. And no one wants to kiss someone whose breath smells like Scientology." [21] I don't see how you can characterise such obvious harassment as "whistleblowing". Cirt isn't under any content restrictions as far as I know (surely they would have been mentioned by JN466) so this looks very much like an attempt to bully him into withdrawing from particular content areas or from Wikipedia as a whole. I can't support that. Prioryman (talk) 00:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That's a pretty good description of my own observations (and conclusions).
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:08, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I definitely share V's feelings. Unless we want to limit Wikipedia to a certain class of high-functioning autistics, human nature says that virtually every editor is going to have personal biases. However, having thousands of active editors means that the biases average out. Someone makes an edit that seems biased? You edit their edit. If you disagree, you take it to talk and hash it out, maybe by getting a 3O or via an RFC. That's how the place is supposed to work! I haven't seen evidence that Cirt won't back down when confronted with reasonable evidence contrary to his position. (Why would you back down from someone who doesn't present reasonable evidence to the contrary?) In fact, it seems to me like Cirt's behavior is lapsing into learned helplessness at this point. This concerns me. I do not want to be the next person who is run out of town on a rail. This is personal for me, but not because I know Cirt (I don't) or because I'm part of some clique (I'm not) or for political reasons: It's personal for me because the contents of First they came... keeps running through my head. If there were a good case here, or if it were limited to just the editing behavior that is worrisome and actually discussed it instead of using it to vilify Cirt... if I didn't keep wondering if this is just groundwork to take Cirt back to ArbCom for formal ostracism... I wouldn't feel that way about this RfC/U. But... here we are. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 01:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Exactly! That's where the "creepy feeling" is coming from, and First they came... keeps running through my head as well.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 01:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Quite right Macwhiz, this has become personal because the approach to the treatment of Cirt has been degrading to all those involved in ways that hurts the culture of the project, which we are very much part of, Sadads (talk) 01:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

This comment hits the mark. What distinguishes Arbcom cases from ordinary aggregated content disputes is the level of tendentiousness involved. Cirt has not displayed the level of aggressive persistence in his views that many of his past enemies, who have come out of the woodwork to condemn him here, have shown. At every level of this recent dispute, he has voluntarily withdrawn into smaller and smaller areas in which to edit. The only goal left for his detractors seems to be to have him stop editing completely. This is the real story of bullying here. Quigley (talk) 01:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh jeeze have we already come to Godwin's law? The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 01:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Godwin's law no longer applies, because unfortunately, Mike Godwin is no longer the legal counsel. :( Wnt (talk) 01:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

But did we mess up the Sircar/Case Corollary to Godwin's Law, as sanctioned by the man himself? [22] (Do we start counting from the debate on santorum or the start of the RfC/U?) // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

As someone who has used Wikipedia's dispute resolution system on several occasions, including a couple that progressed all the way to arbitration, I can attest that the process is not only time-consuming, but often involves having to endure some fairly harsh criticism from observers who don't approve and apparently feel that saying, "I don't agree with you" is an insufficient response. Emotions seem to run a little high, which I think might be helped if people remembered that this is just a website with most of its participants hiding behind anonymous accounts. Nevertheless, I guess being obliquely compared with the Nazis is par for the course. Cla68 (talk) 02:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment Huh? Do you all know how First they came… goes, and what that would translate to in the present situation? It would mean that when someone criticized Cirt's editing everyone would have just stood by while Cirt was crucified. That is exactly the opposite of what has been happening. When someone criticizes Cirt's edits it usually amounts to nothing as a best case scenario, and retaliation against the critic as a worst case scenario. Yet somehow you want people to believe that Cirt is a helpless victim here who is being bullied while the world stands by watching but refuses to help? A majority of people engaging this RFC have written and endorsed comments that state rather emphatically that Cirt's critics are full of shit, but somehow that means that Cirt is going to be railroaded? What planet do you live on? I'm sorry, but this is really starting to piss me off. Disagree with our comments all you want, but don't start playing the victim card in this way because it's totally offensive to every single person on this planet who actually has been a victim in their lives. Is your aim to increase the levels of drama and resentment against those who in good faith have come here to express their concerns? If you want to help us navigate this issue then point out the flaws in the arguments and endorse summaries that show how those critical of Cirt are wrong. And btw who wants Cirt gone? Who has proposed anything even remotely close to removing Cirt from the project? And who are Cirt's old "enemies"? The rhetoric being masticated and passed around above is completely counterproductive. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 02:24, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh and I didn't even want to touch the Nazi comparison, but clearly that's a rhetorical flourish that was not lost on me when I read this tripe. What is wrong with people?Griswaldo (talk) 02:24, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Totally offensive to every single person on this planet who actually has been a victim in their lives"? Talk about hyperbole and resentment. What I was talking about when I said Cirt's "past enemies" were comments like Pieter Kuiper's and LuftWaffle0's, where miniscule content and conduct disputes are woven together to create an alleged "pattern" of "bullying" and other behaviors; where the rebuttals to these cases exist, but are ignored because of the sheer volume of frivolous complaints being thrown at Cirt. Those who resent Cirt's activities on the project—and soon uninvolved editors, the certifiers hope—necessarily speak in platitudes, because they have information overload and little else in terms of quality of complaint. How can we speak of the real issues surrounding Cirt in a coherent, unified manner? We cannot, because it is only the sheer force of rage and resentment among certain editors that holds them together. Quigley (talk) 02:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec)You cannot because all you have to offer, apparently, is this rhetorical tripe. Someone compared those they disagree with to Nazis (though ironically they had to butcher the logic of the original story to do so), and you all stood around patting each others backs because you shared this level of outrage at the Nazilike Cirt critics of the world! And you want to tell me about my use of hyperbole? Give me a break son. It's disgusting what this has devolved to, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart, not hyperbolically.Griswaldo (talk) 03:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Calling criticisms against the filers and pilers on "rhetorical tripe" doesn't exactly win many friends. It's pretty clear that no one's saying Cirt is getting Final Solutioned. We're saying the attacks on him are disturbing and set a precedent that we don't want to see set. First they came is about Nazis, but the clear exhortation the author makes is to stand up when you see people get mistreated, even if you disagree with their views. Throwaway85 (talk) 03:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding "rhetorical tripe" see WP:SPADE. There is no policy or guideline on Wikipedia that says I need to tolerate being compared to a Nazi.Griswaldo (talk) 03:22, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Son"?! And with all of this condescension, you really wonder why some people suspect that you're trying to drive people away from Wikipedia? Give me a break. This never "devolved" into anything disgusting; it was disgusting from the moment, long before this RfC/U, that Delicious Carbuncle started ogling Cirt's edits, talking about "kissing" and the "smell" of Cirt's "fingers and breath". This is the language of Cirt's critics, and you're legitimizing it. Quigley (talk) 03:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Am I Delicious Carbuncle? Is DGG Delicious Carbuncle? Is Cla68 Delicious Carbuncle? Is Collect? Is Pieter? Is Jayen466? I wont defend anything DC has said here or elsewhere, so why the hell should I or any of the other people offering criticisms of Cirt in the RFC suffer these ridiculous comparisons because of what DC said somewhere in cyberspace? "But Delicious Carbuncle said really bad things about Cirt over at evil Wikipedia Review" is the lamest excuse I've ever heard. Check yourself and what you're saying if you didn't intend to drag anyone but DC into the mud because you did. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That's not an accurate interpretation of my own viewpoint, though. First they came... comes to mind as a reason for speaking up during this at all, for me. I don't personally have a bone to pick with anyone here (my only direct relationship to this issue is what I mentioned above, where I interacted with JN466 regarding concerns with the WikiBomb essay, immediately after he announced it's presence on the Village Pump). You guys may take exception to being compared to Nazis (which is certainly understandable), and may even be dismissive of these views because of that comparison (which would be unfortunate), but I hope that you can be reassured somewhat in the fact that (for me at least) the comparison is only incidental. First they came... can be used, and to me is used here, to express a feeling of strong misgivings related to observing the sort of behavior that this RFC/U appears to be. I certainly have no intention of calling you or anyone else a Nazi, but I don't want to see Cirt or anyone else run out of Wikipedia on a rail simply because some people don't agree with his (or her) politics. That smacks of... well, nothing good, I can tell you that (intentionally avoiding any other real world comparisons here, or other labels, regardless of how appropriate they may be).

I understand being upset based on the feeling that you're the messenger who is being shot, but we're trying to explain to yourself (and others) that there are implications to this that we have a hard time accepting. I don't think that the approach being taken here (especially the intense personalization of all this, centering on Cirt himself) is the best approach for the Project (and unfortunately, I have to admit that I wonder if that's not part of the goal of one or two of the participants, being an attempt to disrupt from within... The connections to WR certainly don't help alleviate that train of thought).

The one good thing to all of this is that at least it's actually being aired out. There seems to be a lot of resentment here because the concerns of quite a few people have been buried over the years, largely due to the "shoot the messenger" criticism. I think it's a mistake to attribute all of that to be Cirt's fault, though. Doing so sounds an awful lot like some sort of strange conspiracy theory, to me.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 02:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Yet that's a complete 180 from the other thing that "troubled" you just above. You say that Cirt is not totally to blame for "shooting the messenger" now, but just above you were troubled exactly because someone appeared to be getting ready to discuss the others who might share that blame. And yes, you did join in the comparison of those you disagree with here to Nazis, and yes it remains offensive.Griswaldo (talk) 03:12, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

And for frack's sake who the hell is running Cirt out of Wikipedia on a rail?Griswaldo (talk) 03:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's the thing; I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sympathetic towards your position (which makes all of this a bit confusing and difficult to express). I just have serious reservations about the manner in which y'all are trying to achieve... recognition that you've been wronged by the community? That, right there, is a huge part of the problem with this; I'm having a hard time finishing that sentence. The stated "desired outcome" on the front of this is tough to believe, and even if it is believed I think (and apparently other do as well) that there are wider ranging implications to all of this then you all are willing to admit. The structure chosen for this, and partially the venue chosen for this, is problematic.

Anyway, I hope that you'll stay engaged for a bit longer on the talk page here. I think that we should hash this out, collectively. Actually, I think that this discussion has a chance to be more productive than the RFC/U itself.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and the "troubling" aspect of the "Cirt's enablers" thing was that it was being added to an RFC/U... I mean, structurally this isn't supposed to be a threaded discussion type of thing. I'd like to point out that Richwales, who appears to be more on "your side", agreed with that concern as well.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:35, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Can we stop with the "sides" thing? It really just reinforces the battlefield mentality. I really dont like being lumped in here with Carbnucle who I defended Cirt from and evidently so does Griswaldo. The Resident Anthropologist(talk)•(contribs) 03:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Cla68 could make a big show of good faith to this effect by removing his "Whistleblower protection" view, which by its origins is a generalized attack on anyone who has defended Cirt from any accusation in the past four years. Because while Ohms law and Macwhiz speak in hypotheticals about this RfC/U affecting them sometime in the future, the certifiers have already thrown a poisoned net over a broad range of users, or "enablers"—to use their dehumanizing language—, extending the scope of the crucifixion beyond Cirt to anyone who has stood up against his accusers. The "sides" are not a supplement from this discussion: they are the original sin of this RfC/U. Quigley (talk) 03:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Cla68 edited the section to satisfy the reasonable concerns that Richwales had. By the way have you actually read Cla68's evidence in that section? Read through all the linked discussions? I highly suggest looking through the Delicious Carbuncle links specifically, then come back and tell me with a straight face that 1) people like me are on a certain "side" here, 2) Cirt hasn't pushed the boundaries of noticeboard use (hint see WP:FORUMSHOPPING) and 3) there aren't people out there running interference for Cirt when he gets into trouble. I, for one, rather explicitly admonished DC for his behavior in that scenario even supporting some kind of action against him for what he did actually do (violate WP:POINT) and defended Cirt, who around that time was showing a lot of good faith in fixing some of his POV pushing issues on other pages. However, Cirt stepped over the line when he refused to accept the results at AN/I and forumshopped his way to WP:AE, where he specifically requested help from admins on their talk pages. One of those admins showed up and topic banned DC, which was excessive and showed no parity. When truly uninvovled admins showed up at DC's AE appeal and started suggesting that either both editors should have the sanction or neither, one of Cirt's frequent defenders started running interference. The matter resolved in the lifting of DCs sanction, despite a clear consensus between truly uninvolved admins that Cirt and DC should have been topic banned from BLPs for some period of time. This incident rather clearly dispels several of the bogus claims you have all been spouting off here. 1) That there are "sides" in this matter, and that all the people critical of Cirt in the RFC are on some nefarious team out to get him and 2) that there aren't people out there who are on the ready to run interference for Cirt when others suggest remedies that might apply to him. Regarding the second point you might not like the fact that this type of thing does happen, but that doesn't change reality. And btw, I'm sure that a majority of the time that Cirt is criticized he is rightfully defended by people. No one is suggesting that justifiably defending Cirt amounts to enabling him. This regards specific types of situations quite clearly. I'm sick and tired of the straw man generalizations aimed at discrediting specific criticisms. Just utterly sick of it.Griswaldo (talk) 11:41, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't particularly like the "sides" thing either, but... it's endemic throughout this whole subject. I don't know how to avoid it, really. I have similar feelings of discomfort about apparently being on "this side" as you have about being on "that side", though. Maybe this is something which we can use in order to find commonality, here.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 03:57, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

And how is it "endemic" exactly? I see people on this talk page repeating the same tired notions that there is a "side" of people who are nefariously working against Cirt for some yet unexplained reason. There are no natural "sides" in the RFC proper, but those who object to the various criticisms of Cirt have absolutely worked as hard as they can to make it look like a mere matter of clique behavior, partisanship, etc. I just don't see it anywhere except for in your claims. Otherwise maybe you'd care to substantiate them with some actual evidence.Griswaldo (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

And I'd like to add that many of you here claim to be new to these issues, yet at the same time you boldly pronounce an understanding of the factionalism you think is involved here. If you are new to these issues how likely is it that you really understand the deeper social dynamics you keep on claiming here? Given the fact that I am less new to these issues, and I don't see what you're talking about, I'd expect the answer is not very. You want to convince someone that there it's fair to group all of those who have offered criticisms into one big gang then provide some evidence of that. If you can't then stop poisoning the well.Griswaldo (talk) 14:08, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to answer that exactly. It seems pretty self evident to me, from the links and whatnot that yourself and others have provided as evidence (let alone the statements). My observations lead me to the conclusion that there is factionalism here, regardless of whether you or anyone else intended them to exist.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 21:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That's not an answer. What is the source of the factionalism? Simply agreeing at various times during different disputes that Cirt might be at fault to greater or lesser degrees does not create a "faction." So what sits at the basis of this "faction."?Griswaldo (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Is your aim to increase the levels of drama and resentment against those who in good faith have come here to express their concerns?"

Well, first off, let's clear one thing up: I am not calling anyone a Nazi. First they came... was first written about the Nazis, yes, but it is a parable. As our own article says, Niemöller's "statement, sometimes presented as a poem, is well-known, frequently quoted, and is a popular model for describing the dangers of political apathy, as it often begins with specific and targeted fear and hatred which soon escalates out of control."

I came here in good faith and presented my concern that this RfC/U, presented in the fashion in which it was given, looks like a witch hunt. The RfC/U suggests that Cirt deserves some sort of sanction because of a long-term pattern of disparate activity, most of which is not against the rules in and of itself. As I read it—and I see that I am not alone in this—it asks that we declare Cirt did wrong for doing things that most of us do at least occasionally, if not frequently: Writing articles on the basis of a suggestion; avoiding the drama that comes with negative statements in BLPs; seeking permission to use a photo; creating templates; editing articles in line with one's own interests; expanding an article after a massive increase in WP:N and WP:RS; using the term several to refer to two; asking others for help... Yet the RfC/U doesn't really distinguish what exactly makes doing those things bad.

And some of the claims in this RfC/U seem to be decidedly lacking in good faith: The selective quotation of the Anonymous forums, the omission of Jon Stewart's story in the timeline of the santorum edits, faulting Cirt for marshaling attention to WP:BOMB when it was clearly an attack polemic, the misrepresentation of undertakings to "shift focus away from" and "avoid" a topic as a promise to never touch the topic again... That is poisoning the well.

When I see that occur, and I see editors that I otherwise respect and believe to be of sound judgement endorse such views, yes, I become concerned. "If you are new to these issues how likely is it that you really understand the deeper social dynamics you keep on claiming here?" Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? So far, this RfC/U isn't doing a very good job of explaining it. If Cirt's pattern of behavior is so bad to merit this much discussion—Jayen's been beating this drum for three years now, right?—then surely it can be explained to a newcomer clearly and succinctly.

But instead, I see an editor being faulted for doing things I have done and believed to be the right way to edit Wikipedia. I see some questionable tactics being used to discredit this editor. So yes, I find myself wondering, if I do not speak up now, and "the consensus of the community" is set that these things are wrong, will I then be at risk of sanction too?

So it looks to me like, to avoid creating drama, Cirt has backed away from editing Scientology, New Religious movement articles, DYK, interaction with Jayen, certain FAs, and political BLPs. Cirt posts to WikiProject talk pages before creating any new articles. These are pretty substantial chunks of repertoire to excise. As Quigley said, Cirt continually voluntarily withdraws into smaller and smaller areas in response to the rather substantial criticism. If I were in Cirt's shoes, I'd be thinking about giving up entirely, and I don't think that's right, just, or in the best interests of the project.

We have a statement that "Cirt has displayed a long-term pattern of... dishonesty and deceit", and the allegations of broken promises to withdraw seem to be the evidence for that statement—yet it asks for Cirt to make promises about future behavior. Wait, what? Accuse a man of lying about promises to do better, and then demand that he make some more of them to atone? So I think it beggars belief to suggest that this RfC/U asks only for admonishment. We know Cirt reacts to this sort of criticism by withdrawing from the field. The predictable outcome of this RfC/U is to cause further withdrawal. That's indeed railroading—"to procedurally bully someone into an unfair agreement".

Yet for the cries of rhetorical tripe, drama and resentment, mastication, butchery of logic, hyperbole, disgust, straw man generalizations, factionalism, and poisoning the well, if "simply agreeing at various times during different disputes that Cirt might be at fault to greater or lesser degrees" does create a faction, well, I'd have to count myself part of that faction. But I would not sign off on a statement about Cirt that kicks off the discussion with misrepresentations, and I would not dismiss the concerns of anyone who couldn't see my own point for all the hyperbole.

As much as this RfC/U purports to be a comment on Cirt, it's not written as one. It's written as the latest of many grudges against Cirt, and one that has a chilling effect on the behavior of a multitude of other editors. Give me a neutral, clear, well-sourced enumeration of Cirt's actual editing problems and I'll most likely endorse it. This RfC/U is not that document. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

whatever the factions

Whatever the factions users should attempt to step back from their personal positions and attempt to look at the editing patters of the user and to assist them by objectively commenting on the issues as laid out in the case. Clearly there are multiple problems with Cirts contributions. Simply supporting the user on the grounds of factionalism or whatever will not help address the clear issues that are laid out on the RFC page. If this RFC does not address the editing patterns they will only be repeated and the next location the user Cirt will find themselves at will be Arbitration, and they do look at the issues and edit patterns objectively. Failing to deal objectively and beneficially with one level of the dispute process just beckons the next level. Off2riorob (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to reply to this, because to me it's "factionalizing" participants in this discussion all by itself. The implication is that yourself and those who agree with you are able to step back and "see the true issues" (so to speak), while those of us who fail to agree with what you're saying are not being objective. Maybe that's not your intent, but that's what's coming across.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:42, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

My comment needs or requests no reply. Take it with a pinch of salt or don't take it at all. It is a stand alone personal opinion and not a focus or request for opinion and discussion. Off2riorob (talk) 23:51, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

So, basically, "you'll listen to what I have to say, and that's it"? This doesn't seem like a very constructive thread.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. I think my point was clearly made and without the need for me to restate it. I do find your habit of commenting out of the timeline disruptive, if its not against indenting guidelines it should be, can you indent please and follow the timelime. Off2riorob (talk) 10:23, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I agree there is factionalism here, but please understand that I did not speak in favor of Cirt because he is "in my faction". I spoke in favor because I, and many other people, do not believe, for example, that expanding articles, submitting multiple DYK hooks, writing articles about neologisms successfully started about living people, failing to add text based on a tabloid article critical to a living person, adding File: links, or reporting people to admin boards who are then blocked by an admin based on the admin's independent judgment, are crimes in the first place. No matter who does these things. This is an objective and beneficial decision - Wikipedia has too many rules already, and we don't need to be making up new ones on the spot. But you should know that there is also a certain amount of skepticism on my side about the objectivity of people on yours. Wnt (talk) 23:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, support support support meu amigo, is not imo really a helpful position for the person being discussed - as I have stated, so this section is not really a place to add more of that. Off2riorob (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

It's impossible to ignore the role of factionalism in the pursuit of Cirt. It goes back years.   Will Beback  talk  23:58, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Cirt's contributions are divisive in themselves, that is part of the report. If a user writes an NPOV article no one comes looking. The user Cirt has created the factionalism through their contributions. Off2riorob (talk) 00:04, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

There is no shortage of people complaining about NPOV articles in politics - especially where Republicans are concerned. And if you don't want your comments to be discussed, you really oughtn't post them on a discussion page. Wnt (talk) 00:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Cirt's recent contributions have been beyond such minor complaints and disrupted the whole project - attach that to the historic similar edit patterns and you have a clear contribution issue. - that is why we are here, not because of frothy lube. Off2riorob (talk) 00:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. The frothy lube issue actually seems to be a rather trivial example here. It just also happens to be what got Slimvirgin and then Coren so hot and bothered that they started imitating action. But that doesn't mean that "santorum" is a pivitol issue in the RFC, and indeed I don't see it treated as such by those who are critical of some of Cirt's behaviors.Griswaldo (talk) 02:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Is there any common principle on which we could all agree?

In the interests of moving beyond factionalism, I was wondering, can we all agree to dismiss any of these charges as just plain wrong?

For a first issue which I think hasn't been argued yet, I would like to dismiss all consideration of charges that Cirt "got someone blocked/banned" - once in the initial complaint, once in Pieter Kuiper's response. My feeling is that if you suggest someone should be blocked on a noticeboard, without making clearly false statements, and an admin makes the decision to apply a block based on that, then the responsibility for the block is on the admin, not the person making the report. I am not saying those blocks are necessarily fair; just that they aren't Cirt's responsibility. I am also not saying that recommending someone to be blocked is blameless if you do it and the admin decides the block is unjustified, especially if this happens frequently or appears to be forum shopping. But to me it looks really bad to have people saying "he got me blocked" as part of the case against someone. Wnt (talk) 00:09, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I could easily agree on this. Such issues are minor compared to WWW publication of promotional content. Off2riorob (talk) 00:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

People are free to say what they wish here as far as I am concerned (within reason.) "He got me blocked" is not the greatest argument in the world as you just observed. Should poor arguments be removed? is a question I dont like. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 00:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I could agree to this as well. I understand what you're saying as well RA, but... the idea is to try to get to what people think are the really important issues, and this seems like an easy issue to set aside.
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 00:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I think that removing the absurd arguments is a good start. RA, I understand what you're saying about removing poor arguments; if Wnt were suggesting that we actually delete them from the page, I'd be wholeheartedly agreeing with you. But I think Wnt means "remove" in the sense of "dismissal of charges": an endorsed statement that a particular charge is without merit, or at least not something that rises to the level of scrutiny an RfC/U provides. There are definitely several items presented here that could gain consensus for such, not least of which is Wnt's suggested item. Much as I would ideally prefer to see this RfC/U be withdrawn and replaced by one written more neutrally by someone without such an, ah, colorful and storied history with Cirt, this suggestion at least moves us forward. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:16, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Let me ask you this. Do you or Wnt agree with any of the other criticisms of Cirt's editing made by people other than the RFC initiator? I ask because you've not endorsed any such statements. So far the only common ground either of you have suggested regards the dismissal of one of the criticisms levied against Cirt. If we continue down this path which of the criticisms will you actually get behind? I don't intend on stretching my principles to agree to all kinds of concessions that go in one direction.Griswaldo (talk) 02:45, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

To respond to Griswaldo's question, the main thing that Cirt has done which I'll admit is annoying is making promises to disengage rather than fighting it out at the time. I mean, I've talked about factionalism above, but I don't see Cirt as a member of my 'faction" because he doesn't really get up and argue for his rights the way I'd like. Instead he makes retreats that seem to get him picked on more, which have allowed the charges in this document to pile up unanswered. In this game he's not really my teammate, he's the ball. Now even so, as a matter of principle, I don't think an editor can be held to a binding commitment if he tells some other editor in a discussion that he'll back off editing a topic. It's up to him to decide how much and how long; that's what makes it "voluntary". But these retreats are a missed opportunity and have contributed to these troubles, because otherwise all (rather than most) of the issues here would be things being reargued after being debated to closure at some time in the past. I think in the future, in regard to any and all editors, we should put less emphasis on statements about withdrawing from the topic. We should try to say whether a pattern of behavior is right or wrong, as a matter of principle, whenever there is underlying political disagreement, not as a push to judge the editor, but as a push for clarity in how Wikipedia works. Wnt (talk) 05:39, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I concur (incidentally, the characterization of Cirt being the ball is compelling to me. Kudos). Oh, except I'd edit the last part to be "not as a push to judge the editor, but as a push for resolution of the issue."
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 06:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'll put it this way: I definitely see worrisome smoke and am looking for fire on the following points:

• Misquoting references in a way that alters what they say
• Questionable use of self-published YouTube videos
• Excessively positive articles (albeit I'm open to the "tired of BLP zealot beatdowns" defense, but only to a point)
• A tendency to undertake promises to change editing habits that are phrased in such a way that they are often misunderstood (although I see no reason to believe this is conscious or malicious)

I'll even raise you a concern not stated in the RfC/U: Since I started editing here, I remember seeing a few occasions where Cirt used admin powers somewhat capriciously, but... not maliciously, but more like an eager puppy, y'know? But before I would make a Federal case out of it, I'd want to see if it was just a new-admin thing, and how many new admins go through the same thing.

I'm not saying those are the only things I could agree on; just that those are the only ones where the RfC/U isn't making it very difficult for me to see the basis of the accusation. And I'll close by noting that I did, in fact, endorse Richwales' criticism earlier this evening. I need to think more on DGG's and RA's views. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:01, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and I would be far more likely to endorse a desired outcome that's rehabilatory, rather than penal. If, for the sake of argument, I did agree with all the points Jayen presented, I can't see how I could accept the proposed outcome. It would make no sense. If Cirt really did do all this stuff, and all the hypothetical Cirt-supporters haven't set him straight, I don't see how he could be trusted to continue editing—we'd have established Cirt's word is no good. But I don't agree with all the points, I don't think it's that bad, and I do get the sense he is willing to address his problems if we approach this as helpful neighbors. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure anyone would disagree with #3. Gamaliel (talk) 03:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

What about articles related to Scientology or Werner Erhard? Excessively positive? I don't think so. I think people have been arguing that some articles written by Cirt are promotional. Promotional means more than simply excessively positive, but even so not all his articles are promotional in a positive sense.Griswaldo (talk) 03:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

He is considering points made by people. Let's leave it at that. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 03:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that I could be sufficiently neutral on the topic of Scientology to offer a worthwhile opinion. I'm not sure that we need to drag Scientology into it, though; there ought to be plenty of examples either way without crossing that bridge. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 03:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Why would we expect to find negative writing about subjects outside the ones that Cirt clearly has a negative attitudes towards? I don't follow. POV pushing can work in either direction ... excessively positive or excessively negative, but both require an impetus. If I edited Wikipedia mostly on topics related to Wicca, an I hated Wicca, and someone decided to start an RFC on my editing pointing out that I have a lot of negative POV pushing in the area of Wicca I suppose someone should tell them to find other examples of negative POV pushing from me, unrelated to Wicca? Makes no sense.Griswaldo (talk) 04:19, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Griswaldo, why have you not endorsed any statements that rebut criticisms of Cirt's editing? (Khazar's view is, on the whole, very negative about Cirt, except to make a meek acknowledgement of the "quality content [Cirt]'s created".) Is this not "stretching [one's] principles to agree to all kinds of concessions that go in one direction" on your part? Quigley (talk) 03:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see a lot of "rebuttals." I see a lot of dismissive comments, both here on this page and in the RFC.Griswaldo (talk) 03:44, 30 June 2011 (UTC)\

That said I will promise to reread them all tomorrow. Maybe I've been too dismissive of them myself. I meant that honestly. I'm happy to reengage the comments I have not endorsed. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. Speaking for myself, I'm not at all out to vilify yourself or anyone else here. :)
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The RfC/U process solicits summaries "written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete." You cannot say that the only productive and principled comments are the ones that praise Jayen466's and Cla68's summary, or that agree Cirt should be placed under sanctions. Quigley (talk) 03:51, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Well my own comment, for instance, does none of those things so I'm unsure why you made that leap. As I just stated above, however, I will earnestly re-read the other comments tomorrow when I'm more awake.Griswaldo (talk) 03:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I have no objection to using the term promotional as I used it myself in my response to the RFC. Gamaliel (talk) 04:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm guessing that this comment is in relation to macwhiz's, specifically regarding "Excessively positive articles" (so, you're saying you'd support "Excessively promotional articles")?
— V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 04:56, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It's a response to Griswaldo's response to me, but yes, I would support either of the two wordings, though the latter is probably more spot on. 14:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Do I understand it right that a few editors here are trying to propose deleting some editor's views from the RfC without their permission? If so, I think this is a first. Cla68 (talk) 12:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we should not delete views/claims from an RFC, even when they are clearly fictitious. However, by the same token, I think there should be consequences for filing an RFC full of provably false statements and invalid charges, and this RFC would clearly qualify. Raul654 (talk) 13:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

That's a serious charge Raul. I do not think there is agreement on that. Can you please list the "provably false statements and invalid charges" here so that those you accuse can respond. These types of statements amount to slander (and no I don't mean in any legal sense) unless they are accompanied by evidence.Griswaldo (talk) 13:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I personally doubt Raul even read any of the RfC/U before he declared it wholly without merit. --JN466 15:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You've made it very difficult for people who value their time to take this RfC/U seriously, by demanding hours of background reading from users—many of whom did not feel incensed by Cirt after reading—and by inflating your statement of the dispute with easily falsifiable claims (pilloried on this page as well as in the outside views and response). Even those who broadly agree that Cirt is a Bad Guy™ concede that "many of the charges against Cirt are absurd", but that that's okay because Cirt is "guilty" (of what? I don't know). For many people jumping on the Cirt-hate dogpile, it seems that one's opinion of Cirt is more important than the points in this RfC/U. Quigley (talk) 19:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's an impasse. You have enough time to post 2000 words to express your opinion, but not enough time, it seems, to read the evidence. There's nothing much to say then. If you do happen to read the sections about the State Senate elections, let me have your considered opinion whether you think the use of Wikimedia projects and main pages to promote Peralta, Dickson and Anderson was appropriate. Cheers, and no hard feelings. --JN466 21:06, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Nothing I said ever implied that I did not read your allegations regarding Peralta, Dickson, and Anderson. I did not comment on them in my own view, because I was not sufficiently involved at the time of those articles' writing to weigh all of the evidence (as opposed to your selective evidence) fairly. But my not signing your statement of the dispute did imply that I found those allegations lacking. In fact, I found your accusation that Cirt's motivation for improving those articles were the subjects' peripheral positions on Scientology as absurd a conspiracy theory as the accusation (a lead trial balloon which you did not include in your statement of the dispute, but which I included in my own summary) that Cirt improved the santorum article in 2011 because Dan Savage made a blog post critical of Scientology in 2008. The charges against Cirt are so bizarre, petty, and uninteresting that resolving the interpersonal dispute that seems to be at the heart of all this is infinitely more productive than playing six degrees of Xenu. Quigley (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Wait I am confused Where is that accusation on Dan Savage-Scientology link? I have reviewed the main RFCU page not seeing it. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 21:59, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is any particular connection between Santorum and Scientology. Santorum was accused once of having connections to the Moonies, and as a religious fundamentalist he would be likely to support religious fringe groups' rights in ways anti-cultists would not appreciate, but I don't think you need any of this to dislike Santorum. --JN466 22:12, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Quigley posits above that one of your conspiracy theories is that "Cirt improved the santorum article in 2011 because Dan Savage made a blog post critical of Scientology in 2008." I am not finding that accusation made by one person here. The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It's here, linked to in my view from the beginning. It's also on Wikipedia Review, where that trope likely originated. Quigley (talk) 22:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah missed that I as I was clicking through the as I was looking for a statement by Jayen466 saying that. As far I can tell Jayen466 never made or supported that accusation.The Resident Anthropologist (talk)•(contribs) 22:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The reason you can't find it in this RfC/U is that it's not there. It is true that Savage does not like Scientologists, and has written about them on various occasions, and it is true that he does not like Santorum, but these are dislikes shared by millions of people. --JN466 22:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, let's look at this ... (1) a noted anti-Scientology activist on an Anonymous forum says it is important to campaign against Stone (2) she says she helped Cirt to acquire photos of politicians for the Jeff Stone/campaign articles on Wikipedia (3) Cirt writes promotional articles, described by several editors as "advertisements", on Stone's opponents in Wikipedia, prior to the election, and places them on the main page as DYKs (Dickson in Nov. 2009, and Anderson five weeks before the election) --- and it is an absurd conspiracy theory to surmise that anti-Scientology sentiment had anything to do with Cirt's interest in these articles? And then the same thing happens again a few months later with Jose Peralta and Hiram Monserrate (the latter a supporter of Scientology's detoxification program for 9/11 firefighters), a flattering bio of Peralta goes on the WP main page three days before the election, and an equally flattering Wikiquote entry goes on the Wikiquote main page for the entire week before the election? With respect, it seems to me more absurd to assert that Cirt's activities were unrelated to that outside campaign. --JN466 22:09, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

What are we supposed to do about what Wikiquote chooses to feature? Did he make them choose to accept that quote? What are we supposed to do about people on Anonymous forums talking about him?

Regarding your comment about reading the evidence, sure, think it's only right for people to read over the evidence. The problem is that when the "prosecution" dumps a huge unedited torrent of charges at someone, and so many (like I said in my response) are completely unjustified, how can you expect the people responding to go over every detail with exacting care? That becomes a guilty until proven innocent standard, where it is easy to lay more charges than someone can rebut. And so fairness demands that people stop taking the trouble to go over every charge in detail, focusing only on the broader picture that every one they look at closely falls apart. Wnt (talk) 23:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Had you read the RfC/U, you would know that Cirt placed the Peralta article on the Wikiquote main page himself. --JN466 23:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Wnt, did you just recommend that observers not read through and study the evidence presented in this RfC? Cla68 (talk) 23:24, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I do have to concede that, surprisingly enough, I see the semi-protected template he added the name to really does go straight to the Wikiquote main page. Some of the vandals aren't trying hard enough. It still is not Wikipedia and thus not our concern. I don't even know if NPOV is a policy on Wikiquote, or could be. The things I discussed on the entry I made are the things that sounded most serious to me - as I say there, there were things I couldn't or wouldn't run down in full detail. Wnt (talk) 23:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A suggestion to Cirt

It is becoming obvious that editors commenting here are, to some extent, having difficulty coming to a consensus, and instead becoming polarized into something like opposing camps. Part of the reason for this is that the editors making the complaints have raised a large number of specific concerns, and it is difficult for those of us who have previously been uninvolved to sort through all of them, especially when there are some issues that seem to be quite serious and credible, and others that seem to be insubstantial.

Cirt, in your response you say: "While I don’t believe I’ve substantively breached these requirements, I concede that on occasion my actions have left me open to accusations of having done so." I would infer from that, that you consider most of the specific accusations against you to be factually in error, while acknowledging that there are also some areas in which you are quite willing to try to do better. However, you have not given any specifics (although other editors, of course, have done so). Would you be willing to refute, specifically, any of the accusations against you? As uninvolved editors try to work through the nearly-tl;dr accusations, it would be very helpful if you could indicate those accusations that you consider to be significantly inaccurate, as well as any that you are willing to acknowledge as valid (if any). You don't have to do that, of course, but if you do, you will increase the likelihood of an outcome that you could accept as valid. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Where the certifiers have unleashed this avalanche on Cirt before, he has tried to respond by addressing the factual concerns, but his pursuers seem satisfied by nothing less than an unconditional admission of wrongdoing and an imposed retirement. Quigley (talk) 21:32, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I looked at that link, and while it speaks to some of the issues raised here, it isn't really addressed to this RfC/U. Given that the link is followed by further discussion, it's not clear to me what Cirt's opinion is now. (And I am more persuaded by things like, to take an example from observations made by other editors during this RfC/U, that the increase in activity at the Santorum page followed Jon Stewart's comment, which is a claim of fact, than I am with statements along the line of I promise to abide by Wikipedia consensus, which isn't.) And I would much prefer to hear from Cirt him/herself, rather than from other editors who have already made their own views clear. An expansion, by Cirt, of Cirt's response could be very helpful. If it's merely a link to a previous refutation, that's fine, but I would like to hear it from Cirt. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

One thing I would like editors to remember is that an RfC/U is not a process to seek sanctions against an editor. It is an effort to air and discuss concerns, and talk about them as adults. --JN466 22:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the Partridge citation

One of the issues raised with Cirt's editing was the addition of a quote from The New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English: [23] In the past, I have been critical of this edit myself. However, given that other quotations given as evidence of Cirt's bad faith have turned out to be less than complete, I wanted to see the whole context of Partridge for myself, not just the extended quotation provided here and at the santorum talk page. Luckily, it turns out to be available in Google Books' preview: [24]

Jayen did quote the entirety of the relevant paragraph from Partridge. However, I fear that without the context of the entire preface to the work, the paragraph may be misconstrued when deciding how Partridge feels about santorum.

Yes, Cirt's edit is far too easily read as implying that Partridge listed santorum. However, it seems to me that it's very much a judgement call, and one's interpretation of this issue seems to be a good barometer of how much good faith one feels willing to extend to Cirt. What Cirt wrote is literally true: Partridge did, in fact, cite santorum as an example of deliberate coining—in fact, as the sole such example, which one could argue is a degree of notoriety itself. It's not possible to argue the literal truth of the statement; instead, there's disagreement over what it implies by omission, and whether that omission was deliberate.

I think it's equally possible to conclude that Cirt carefully crafted this statement as a deliberate attempt to hide Partridge's decision to omit the word from its gloss in an attempt to confer more legitimacy on it, as it is to conclude that Cirt found a mention of the word in a respected work and created a paraphrase of that work that avoided giving it undue weight, without considering that others might misconstrue it. It's almost a Rorschach test.

(I note that Partridge never said santorum was not a legitimate word; only that they had made the editorial decision not to include intentionally-coined words. The Preface notes that they included "poorly attested words" and offensive words. It also mentions hoaxes, but gives a different example; it does not consider santorum a hoax.)

Looking into this clarified in my mind one of the problems with Cirt's editing: Cirt writes very precisely and with great economy. Cirt uses language with particular meanings, and expects people to read with equal precision. Reading many of the disagreements cited in this RfC/U, I think that people more often take issue with what they thought or remembered Cirt said than what the words strictly say. That's not to say the readers are wholly at fault; a writer who is correct in the details but frequently misunderstood is still at fault for not expressing themselves clearly to their audience. This is especially true when Cirt is interacting with other editors. When tempers flare, economy of words is interpreted as hostility, and precisely-chosen words may be interpreted with less precision.

In the absence of compelling and unequivocal evidence that Cirt is intentionally out to inject misrepresentations into Wikipedia, I presume good faith. However, I agree that this edit was troublesome, because while technically correct, it did wind up misleading some readers. Had the sentence been worded "The 2006 edition of The New Partridge Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English noted santorum in its preface, but chose not to include it because the term was deliberately coined", there would not have been the risk of incorrect perception. // ⌘macwhiz (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)