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Judy Justice
File:JudyJusticeShow.png
GenreArbitration-based reality court show
Created byJudy Sheindlin
Directed byRandy Douthit[1]
StarringJudge Judy Sheindlin
Law Clerk Sara Rose Levy
Stenographer Whitney Kumar
Bailiff Kevin Rasco
Narrated byAl Murdock
Country of originUnited States
Original languageEnglish
No. of seasons1
No. of episodes28 (list of episodes)
Production
Executive producers
  • Randy Douthit[2]
  • Scott Koondel[1]
  • Amy Freisleben[2]
Production locationsCulver Studios, Culver City, California
Production companyAmazon Studios[3]
Original release
NetworkIMDb TV
ReleaseNovember 1, 2021 (2021-11-01) –
present

Judy Justice is an American streaming arbitration-based reality court show (and spin-off of courtroom series Judge Judy[5]) presided over by former Manhattan Family Court Judge Judith Sheindlin. The show features Sheindlin adjudicating real-life small-claims disputes within a simulated courtroom set. Prior to the proceedings, all involved parties sign arbitration contracts agreeing to Sheindlin's ruling.

The program is produced by Amazon Studios.[3] Unconventional for the court show genre, Judy Justice is the first standard courtroom series to broadcast new episodes exclusively through a streaming service. The series is streamed on the free, ad-supported video channel, IMDb TV, which is owned and distributed by Amazon Studios.[6] With IMDb TV in only its fledgling stages, Judy Justice has been hailed as "easily its biggest original project yet."[7]

By November 2020, it was reported that the program had been picked up for 120 episodes, the largest initial order package for a first-run streaming series.[3][8] To date, Sheindlin has a contract with Amazon to rule over the court show for two seasons.[7]

Early projections are that the series will compete in an uphill battle against CBS-owned reruns of top-rated Judge Judy for courtroom ratings leadership.[9] Judy Justice, advertised as a flashier version of Judge Judy,[10][11] premiered on November 1, 2021. A new episode will air for each weekday.[12][2]

Cast and crew members

Judge Judy Sheindlin

Judge Judy Sheindlin was born on October 21, 1942, in Brooklyn, New York, to German-Jewish parents Murray and Ethel Blum. Sheindlin is a former Manhattan Family Court Prosecutor turned Supervising Family Court Judge turned famed Judge Judy television series arbitration star of 25 years. She is the arbitrator and sole creator of Judy Justice.

In a notable contrast from Judge Judy, Sheindlin presides over Judy Justice without her trademarked lace collar or traditionally black-colored judicial robe. Rather, she presides over Judy Justice in a burgundy red colored judicial robe–a move first seen in the courtroom series, Judge Karen (Karen Mills-Frances similarly sported the unconventionally burgundy red colored judicial robe). Sheindlin has described the adjustment as a measure taken for the purposes of creating a chicer, flashier version of Judge Judy.[10]

Taking to her same tough adjudicating approach from Judge Judy, Sheindlin is seen in an early trailer for the series wielding her trademarked crusty disposition while exerting her strict enforcement of rules, expectations and desire for concise, relevant communication out of the parties. Yahoo! has characterized Sheindlin's Judy Justice as "Judge Judy returns to devour litigants. . . ."[13] Also of note in the spin-off, Sheindlin resurrects her famed catchphrases termed judyisms, which she routinely used in the Judge Judy program to distinguish her message and add entertainment value.[14]

Supporting cast

Sheindlin's supporting cast is made up of three members: a law clerk, a stenographer, and a bailiff. The added positions of a law clerk and stenographer seated within the witness stands were described by show cast and crew as a necessary move to create more life and entertainment at the bench. It has also been described as instrumental in reflecting Sheindlin's pre-celebrity Manhattan family court roots where there existed a law clerk to one side of her and stenographer to the other, likewise seated within the witness stands.[15][16]

  • Sara Rose Levy, Sheindlin's 24-year-old granddaughter, [17] law school student,[11] law clerk, former Judge Judy and Hot Bench production assistant, and former Late Show with Stephen Colbert intern,[17] serving as legal analyst over Judy Justice.[18][19] Touching on her role in Judy Justice, Levy noted her responsibility to provide research pertinent to the proceedings, as well as contributing a Generation Z perspective to the program.[15] Levy has been characterized by Sheindlin as "snarky" and "opinionated"—Sheindlin likening Levy to herself.[7] It was suggested by the New York Post that Sheindlin is grooming Levy to fill her shoes and carry on the torch in leading the way in courtroom programming.[17]
  • Whitney Kumar, board-certified court reporter in the state of California, as Judy Justice stenographer.[20] Outlining her role, Kumar explained that she serves to remind Sheindlin of anything orally communicated throughout the proceedings that ends up in dispute.[15] A running theme from Judge Judy, there were frequent instances where litigants contradicted themselves by making discrepant statements at different intervals of the case, Sheindlin typically remarking back with, "You want me to play back the tape? I'll have my production team play back the tape for you."
  • Kevin Rasco, former Los Angeles probationary officer, entrepreneur, and head of behind-the-scenes security at Judge Judy for its final three years, as Judy Justice bailiff.[21][19] Rasco explained his courtroom duties as protecting Sheindlin and keeping order in the court.[15]

Backstage crew

Sheindlin has spoken highly of the backstage crew that helped her produce and direct the Judge Judy program, sharing that most of them have joined her at Amazon. "That will keep my life on a steady keel," explained Sheindlin.[22][23] According to Judge Judy team members, the vast majority of behind-the-scenes crew from Judge Judy were said to have rejoined Sheindlin for Judy Justice.[24] Included as part of Sheindlin's backstage crew are former Judge Judy executive producers resuming their same roles in the spin-off:

  • Randy Douthit, former Judge Judy executive producer and director (1996–2021), resuming that role as executive producer and director of Judy Justice.[2]
  • Amy Freisleben, former Judge Judy legal assistant (1998–2016) and Judge Judy co-executive producer (2016–2021), resuming that role as co-executive producer of Judy Justice.[2][25]

Program details

On-air format

In a court programming trend initiated by the Judge Judy program, each Judy Justice episode commences with a cold open trailer of the forthcoming case to be featured in that airing. This is followed by the show's title sequence, presenting the cast. Litigants are then shown making entrances to their respective podiums, one always assigned to plaintiff and the other to defendant. Bailiff Kevin Rasco swears in the litigants and then instructs the audience to come to order and rise for Sheindlin's entrance. After Sheindlin instructs the audience to be seated, Rasco provides her with case files, docket number, and proceedings begin.

According to Judy Justice Executive Producers Randy Douthit and Amy Freisleben, most cases on the series focus on a single long case as opposed to the more rapid format of the Judge Judy program, which typically featured two shorter cases. Moreover, cases were said to be more involved on Judy Justice, entering into disputes further in-depth in contrast to the cursory style of the Judge Judy series. It was said that this is largely made possible because of the streaming broadcast setup of the program, thus absent the restrictive time constraints that exist in first-run syndication (broadcast method used for the Judge Judy program).[26]

Once the case has completed, two segments follow: The first segment features the parties of the proceedings sharing their feedback to the verdict and matters related to the case, done by breaking the fourth wall. This is followed by another segment involving Sheindlin and her granddaughter, Sara Rose Levy, the two meeting in Sheindlin's judge's chambers to opine on the preceding case. Levy has described this segment as a tool to add a young adult perspective and contemporary insight to the program. Explained Levy, “The term LMAO came up on a case the other day, for example, and [Sheindlin] needed me to interpret.”[11]

Monetary award limit

In a first for standard court shows, the maximum award limit for Judy Justice is $10,000. Conversely, the maximum award limit for most arbitration-based courtroom programming, including Sheindlin's Judge Judy precursor, has historically been $5,000.[11] While the Judy Justice award limit represents an advance for the court show genre, the norm for actual small claims court in its authentic form outside of televised entertainment allows complainants to request anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000, depending on jurisdiction.[27]

First-run streaming

In March 2020 when Sheindlin initially announced her plans for a new court show, she and her new talent agent, Scott Koondel, rejected the option of first-run syndication in favor of first-run streaming.[28] Judy Justice is the first standard arbitration-based reality court show to air first-run episodes through streaming. The nontraditional comedy court miniseries, Gary Busey: Pet Judge (ran six episodes in 2020), was a streaming broadcast as well. On moving from 25 years in first-run syndication to a streaming service, Sheindlin has stated, "In three to five years all broadcasting will change. Now it’s streaming. I’m excited to be in this new venture."[10]

Set design

Sheindlin has advertised her newer program as more trendy and chic than the precursor, referencing the use of new media, a new robe, and an all new look.[10] Judy Justice showcases a similar but refreshed, upscale, modern version of the courtroom set design from Judge Judy, with a different wood color, marble columns and monitors that are built into the set.[29][26] Sheindlin also presides from a taller, black-colored executive office chair in Judy Justice, discontinuing the burgundy red colored executive office chair used for most of Judge Judy (a reversal on those colors, Sheindlin now sports a burgundy red robe in Judy Justice, discontinuing use of her traditionally black robe from Judge Judy).[30] While the American Flag and New York State Flag was behind Sheindlin in Judge Judy, the New York State Flag is replaced in Judy Justice with another. Whereas the audience stands were filled with individual chairs in Judge Judy, furnished benches fill the stands in Judy Justice.[31][10]

Episode list

Altogether, the first season of Judy Justice will contain 120 episodes. As reported by the show's staff, episodes span longer and explore further in-depth than the typical episode of Judge Judy.

Origins and development

Matters leading to Judy Justice

Amid Sheindlin's displeasure with various salary and programming-related judgment calls made by Judge Judy distributor CBS Media Ventures, as well as recurrent legal claims filed against her and CBS by talent agency Rebel Entertainment to secure allegedly owed profits for uniting her and CBS, she announced the end of Judge Judy.[32][33] It was in a March 2, 2020, appearance on The Ellen DeGeneres Show when it was first reported by Sheindlin herself that her long-running, top daytime Nielsen-rated courtroom series would conclude in then following 2020-21 television season (the show's 25th anniversary season).[34]

The timing of Sheindlin's news took CBS off guard and by surprise. At that point, the network had only tentative plans related to the program's series end, with nothing set in stone.[33] Judge Judy program's Bailiff Byrd later reported that he too was unaware of Judge Judy's series end and the development of a spin-off series until Sheindlin's Ellen DeGeneres Show appearance.[35] In revealing the end of her contract with ViacomCBS, Sheindlin shared that the network would subsequently take over syndicated reruns of Judge Judy while she would seek a new broadcast distrubutor to resume arbitration-based dispute handling for a court show entitled Judy Justice.[36][37][38]

Establishing a distributor

After Scott Koondel shopped Sheindlin's spin-off series around the media to various streaming distributors for several months, it was first announced on October 29, 2020, that Sheindlin had signed a deal with Amazon Studios to stream Judy Justice.[32] Some early media reports of the Amazon partnership claimed that Judy Justice would be produced in part by Scott Koondel's Sox Entertainment production company,[39] though updated reports have only cited Amazon Studios as producing the series.[40] The information that has remained consistent in both early and later news reports, however, is that Sheindlin hired Koondel to market her new court show around the entertainment industry. Koondel's efforts resulted in the partnership between Sheindlin and Amazon.[3][41]

Koondel previously served for 25 years at CBS Television Distribution (distributors of Judge Judy) up until October 2018, exiting from a senior vice president role at the network.[42][43][44] Koondel's departure from CBS was to launch Sox Entertainment in December 2018 in order to package and produce his own entertainment programming.[45] As first reported on September 9, 2021, Judy Justice premiered on November 1, 2021.[12][2]

Pre-production arrangements

Sheindlin returned to Los Angeles—the same city where Judge Judy was filmed—in mid-July 2021 to begin production on Judy Justice.[46][23] Specifically, the court show is filmed in Culver City, California at Culver Studios.[47] Per her contract, Sheindlin and her production crew must shoot a certain number of episodes (120 as last reported in late 2020) by December 2021. In contrast to most streaming programs which release episodes in large batches at extended hiatus intervals for seasonal binge viewing, it was reported on September 9, 2021, that Judy Justice is scheduled to release a new episode for each weekday, the custom of most courtroom programming.[2]

Until September 9, 2021, when numerous Judy Justice details were revealed with significant media publicity and numerous press releases, Sheindlin and the program were largely confidential with journalists on what to expect, feeling that revealing too much would spoil the surprises for viewers. Sheindlin had also shared that contract restrictions prevented her from disclosing details in relation to Judy Justice.[48] She did, however, note her desires to abandon her trademarked lace collar, as well as the traditionally black colored judicial robe in favor of another colored robe—a move first seen in the court show genre on the series, Judge Karen, when Karen Mills-Frances sported an unconventionally burgundy colored judicial robe.[22][48] On September 9, 2021, Sheindlin revealed her new robe color as burgundy red in the first videography from the program, a bumper ad in which she declared, "Court is back in session."[12]

In discussing her judicial tactics and adjudicating technique, Sheindlin has shared that although set designs, litigants, subjects, graphics and music all differ from Judge Judy, she herself remains the same: "It will still have the comfort of truth-finding. I'm still the only judge, but it will be different."[8] Elaborating, Sheindlin stated she would not be "reinventing the wheel. Look, I do what I do. I don’t know. Give me a robe and a case, and I’ll do my job. So within the confines of me doing what I do, we’ll be changing some of the things around me. But I’m not becoming a ballet dancer”.

Partnership with Amazon Studios/IMDb TV

Salary and contracts

Sheindlin has alluded to her contractually agreed upon salary rate from distribution company Amazon Studios for hosting Judy Justice, stating that she plans on maintaining her reputation as the highest paid celebrity in television. Sheindlin rationalized that due to how public her massive income level has been over the years, that salary negotiations with Amazon went over effortlessly. Elaborating on the subject, Sheindlin stated, "The folks at Amazon understood what the parameters were, and there was no issue". By late into her 15th season of Judge Judy (2012-11), Sheindlin had signed a contract renewal that advanced her salary to $47 million annually from the program, lasting through to the series end.[49][50] As of 2020, Sheindlin had a net worth of $440 million.[51][52] As part of her contract with Amazon, Sheindlin has complete ownership rights over Judy Justice.[53] It was reported in March 2020 that Sheindlin had committed to at least two seasons of Judy Justice.[44]

Amazon Studios/IMDb TV's future outlook

So confident was Amazon Studios in Sheindlin's potential to draw viewership that the company ordered 120 episodes of Judy Justice by November 2020, a year prior to its debut. The order was unprecedented as the largest initial order package for a streaming series. Expressing optimism over Judy Justice, Co-Heads of Content and Programming for IMDb TV Lauren Anderson and Ryan Pirozzi were quoted as stating:

Judge Judy Sheindlin is a TV icon and visionary who has entertained millions of fans for decades. As we build the IMDb TV slate of high-quality, ambitious Amazon Studios originals, we are delighted to deliver customers a court program from the legendary Judge Sheindlin who, without a doubt, is the very best in the business.[3]

IMDb TV executives are reportedly aiming to build their to date "little known,"[54] free, ad-supported video-on-demand service into “a modern broadcast network” for Amazon. According to the streamer, Sheindlin's spin-off series will play a key role in developing this strategy through attracting her legions of viewers.[55]

Critical reception

Fan disapproval over perceived snubs of Bailiff Byrd

In December 2020, during 25th season production of Judge Judy, Petri Hawkins-Byrd (Sheindlin's bailiff in the Manhattan family court system as well as bailiff for Judge Judy program's entire 25 season run, making him the longest television court show bailiff in history) noted publicly that he would be "honored" if invited back for the spin-off series in an interview with the Associated Press.[56]

On September 9, 2021, however, it was announced that Kevin Rasco would serve as Judy Justice bailiff as opposed to Byrd. It wasn't until the first trailer for the court show released on September 30, 2021, that widespread criticism and outrage erupted from Judge Judy fans over the absence of Byrd from the spin-off. In the trailer, Sheindlin additionally remarked that she was solo as far as a cast for Judge Judy's 25 seasons in order to promote her Judy Justice cast. In promoting the Judy Justice cast, Sheindlin characterized Rasco as "the warmest of people."[57][58][59]

Addressing fan complaints over his absence in an October 8, 2021, interview with Entertainment Weekly, Byrd stated that he was not asked to participate in Judy Justice. Byrd added that he was not offered an audition nor communicated with at all in regards to the spin-off since Sheindlin first disclosed news of the court show in her March 2020 Ellen DeGeneres Show appearance—news that came as a surprise to Byrd. It wasn't until Byrd phoned Sheindlin himself—after dealing with his wife's brain tumor cancer—in July 2021 after Judge Judy ended and production of Judy Justice was beginning did he first discuss the spin-off with Sheindlin. According to Byrd, when he asked Sheindlin if he would have a role in the streaming series, Sheindlin explained that he was omitted with the explanation that his salary amount would have been too high. Byrd described feeling perplexity and dismay by Sheindlin's statements, reasoning that he never had the opportunity to discuss salary or lower salaries with anyone. He added, however, that he was humbled by the show of support from fans.[35][60][61]

In her own statements to the press, Sheindlin praised her former bailiff, stating "Byrd is terrific, and we had a great 25 year run. This is a whole new program with a whole new cast and an exciting energy.”[62] Byrd ultimately expressed that he holds no grudges, is grateful to Sheindlin and wished her all the best with Judy Justice.[63][64][65]

Since then, Byrd has also shared that he felt snubbed when he was not allowed to present Sheindlin's 2019 Lifetime Achievement Award to her at the Daytime Emmy ceremony. Byrd added that he was seated 15 to 20 rows back while Sheindlin sat with Judge Judy Executive Producer Randy Douthit in the front rows. Questioned about the matter, Sheindlin shared that it was Amy Poehler who called up the Television Academy and requested to present her with the award because she was a big fan. According to Byrd, however, Poehler later shared with him that she was equally perplexed over his exclusion from the ceremony.[66]

Media reviews and Judy Justice response

Following its November 1, 2021, debut, Judy Justice was heavily panned by media critics as lacking in a different direction from Judge Judy, with such characterizations made as "indistinguishable with Judge Judy," "This may seem familiar, but the mics on the [litigants'] desks are slightly smaller. An excerpt from Beethoven's Symphony No. 5 has been replaced as the theme song by something that sounds vaguely similar. Another major change: there's a new bailiff," “a tricky sell. The show, but for its title and some shifts on the margins, effectively serves as the 26th season of Judge Judy.”[67][30][68] An article from The Guardian additionally reads as follows:

Although only the top percentile of Judge Judy acolytes would be able to spot any difference. Sheindlin isn’t wearing the lace collar of old, and her robe is now burgundy instead of black, but this is by no means a reinvented wheel. The format of the new show remains exactly the same as the old one: a procession of dirtbags line up to publicly air their petty disputes, and Sheindlin interrogates them before making a decision. At first glance, it’s hard to know who–other than Sheindlin’s accountants–Judy Justice is for.[69]

In response to media criticism, Judy Justice executive producers claimed to having achieved success in the show's development of its own identity apart from Judge Judy. Pointing attention to the updated courtroom set design, advanced maximum award limit, and casting changes, Judy Justice Executive Producer Amy Freisleben stated, “It looks like a modern courtroom that you would find in any major city. [The on-screen cast offers] more action on the bench and more elements to work with. The casting of these three supporting players was to fulfill the new energy. . . . Judge Judy only considered cases whose litigants were suing for $5,000 or less, but with the support of Amazon, Judy Justice has double the jurisdictional limit [$10,000]. This allows a wider pool of cases for us to search for the program and get the best possible case for Judy".[26] Freisleben's fellow Executive Producer Randy Douthit additionally reasoned that delivering a fresh, new presence was behind the decision for a new bailiff in place of Bailiff Byrd. Defending additional moves made by the show, Douthit shared his feelings on the recruitment of Sheindlin's granddaughter, stating that Levy would appeal to the more “youthful streaming fanbase”.[26]

Allegations against Executive Producers

Amid the spin-off's critical fan and media reception upon debuting, Judge Judy and Judy Justice Executive Producer Randy Douthit came under fire in November 2021 over years of lawsuits and allegations in relation to creating a toxic workplace backstage of Judge Judy. Discovered were multitudes of legal allegations leveled at Douthit by 16 former Judge Judy producers that reported to him, involving workplace drunkenness, sexual harassment, body shaming, ageism, ableism, anti-blackness, and misogyny.[70][71][72] Among examples, a 2009 lawsuit filed by former Senior Producer Jonathan Sebastien alleged that Douthit announced, "We're not doing any more Black shows. I don't want to hear Black people arguing." In November 2021, 6 former Judge Judy staffers confirmed Sebastien's charges made against Douthit. [73][71][72] Additionally, Executive Producer Amy Freisleben has been accused of pitting staffers against one another, threatening people's jobs frequently, drinking on the set, and showing contempt for the show's guests. Sheindlin was criticized over turning a blind eye to the matters and allowing the aforementioned executive producers to resume their roles in Judy Justice, causing former staff members to express concern that history will repeat itself.[24] Expressing resentment over how her leadership was portrayed by media outlets, Sheindlin was quoted as stating:

To author a piece which speculates that I 'was untouchable,' 'don't care how the show gets made,' 'that I don't trust anyone,' 'didn't like cases involving dogs, dog bites or strippers,' 'by and large didn't interact with staffers,' 'wasn't worried about the coronavirus,' is appalling.[24]

Viewership barriers

Amazon's Judy Justice first-run vs. ViacomCBS's Judge Judy reruns

Judy Justice will be in direct competition with reruns of its predecessor for highest court viewership ratings. It's thought that Sheindlin's top-rated, completed precursor—which is under complete ownership rights to ViacomCBS—will serve as her only viable competitor and biggest rival in the court show genre. In early September 2021, veteran syndicated television programming analyst Bill Carroll projected stiff competition from syndicated Judge Judy reruns by CBS, such that will presumably leave Judy Justice defeated by its rival. Explaining his rationale, Carroll stated:

Judge Judy viewers have been conditioned through the years to seeing reruns. Some stations would run back-to-back episodes, one new and one rerun. The show's look and format was kept so consistent through the years that to many viewers it is timeless. If you were to say to most viewers that these are not new shows, they would say, ‘Oh, really?’ They're almost certain to surpass Judy Justice in viewership although, to be fair, streaming audiences are smaller than most TV shows.[9]

CBS has additionally reported that the number of stations carrying the reruns are "substantially the same" as when fresh episodes were provided. That being said, it was reported that the value of Judy Justice to IMDb TV will be in driving extensive viewership to the service, where those audiences may be exposed to other programs and offerings.[9] On the subject, Carroll was quoted as remarking, "For [Amazon], it can't be anything but good. For [Sheindlin], it allows her to do what she loves to do."[9]

It was later reported on October 25, 2021, from Nielsen ratings data sources, that an estimated 7 million viewers were still tuning into syndicated Judge Judy reruns, a decline of only 11% from May 2021 when the court show was airing new episodes.[11] Worthy to note that according to The New York Times, in contrast to traditional syndicated broadcasts, ratings are not publicly reported for streaming broadcasts, taking pressure off of streaming entertainers.[11]

Streaming service outlook

Sheindlin and Scott Koondel's decision to air Judy Justice through a streaming service as well as on IMDb TV in particular (versus first-run syndication) has been met with significant negative projections and criticism, one review remarking, "Streaming represents a test for Sheindlin and for her producers (Randy Douthit and Scott Koondel) to see if she can capture an audience excited to see what they’ve seen before. . . . And it’s familiar enough—with the point that Sheindlin cannot suffer fools having been very amply made at this point—that Judy Justice’s existence on streaming comes to feel deeply strange."[67] Another review of the program reads "CBS is aggressively broadcasting a series of reruns (which have traditionally always got high ratings) during the first volley of Judy Justice episodes, in the hope that casual viewers would prefer to watch easily accessible old episodes rather than seek out a new and hellishly obscure [IMDb TV] streaming service."[69]

Sheindlin on projected obstacles facing Judy Justice viewership

Judge Sheindlin was questioned on whether she had any concern over Judy Justice failing to succeed due to IMDb TV's obscurity, the speculated loss of much of her older-aged Judge Judy viewers who are thought to be largely oblivious to new media like streaming, as well as the drawing power that the Judge Judy program still holds in broadcast syndicated reruns. Sheindlin has described herself as "relatively worry free," adding "I did the math, and I’ve already got enough [money] for 24/7 nursing care until I’m 150." Nonetheless, Sheindlin revealed that she has shared with IMDb TV her objections with their company name and branding, resulting in the company determining that the name "IMDb TV," its image and branding will all be revamped in the imminent future.[11]

Acknowledging the residual and perhaps insurmountable ratings success of CBS-owned Judge Judy reruns in a discussion with The New York Post, Sheindlin commented, “Viewers can still catch me at 4 o’clock with my old hair. And the last time I looked, Judge Judy was the number-one program in syndication in daytime television. If we can bring half of that 8 million viewer audience with us [to Judy Justice], that’s terrific."[47]

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