Talk:War in Donbas

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End date[edit]

If the war was subsumed, then it did not end. This article is about a period or phase of the Russo-Ukrainian War ending in February 2022, but that doesn’t mean we should arbitrarily say that the war ended and that it had a fixed duration. The end date should probably be removed, because there is no source cited that gives this as the date the war in Donbas ended.  —Michael Z. 13:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the title “War in Donbas (2014–2022)” the years refer to the scope of the article to help identify its subject. They work in contrast to the former article title of the following phase which was “Russian invasion of Ukraine (2022–present).” They continue to serve as disambiguation in reference to other subjects listed at Battle of Donbas. The years are not a part of the article text that gives the duration of a war bracketed by periods of peace.  —Michael Z. 13:26, 17 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fighting in Donbas has changed substantially. In 2014 it was mostly separatist proxies fighting an insurgency with a lot of territory changing hands. As years passed the separatist proxies organized and received increased support from Russia, it became a slower and more attritional war, however fighting was not as intense so it makes sense to fit it into the initial insurgency's article. But with the new Russian invasion we went into a full-scale war between two professional armies with battles bloodier than anything we've seen here since 1945.
We can also argue political objectives were different. In 2014 Russia likely tried to make Donetsk and Luhansk highly autonomous provinces with veto powers within Ukraine to keep it from approaching the West, like it attempted with Moldova and probably Georgia. In 2022 the objective was simply conquest and expansionism.
They're different engagements and we can only group them together through time. If we adopt this interpretation we will have for some reason an article on the 2022-2023 phase but not one on the 2014-2022 which we can further divide. Furthermore there's barely any information here of what happened after 24 February 2022. This should become an enlarged discussion, likely a RfC on the article's scope, instead of being resolved through an unilateral decision. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I’m only suggesting removing the date from the infobox. No other change. The article does not say the war ended in February 2022, so a specific “end date” should not be presented as if it were a “key fact” in the infobox.  —Michael Z. 00:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, should be ongoing. Otherwise "status" tag is inappropriate. Beshogur (talk) 20:03, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The subject of this article is a specific phase of the overall Russo-Ukrainian war, the War in Donbas, and previous editor consensus was that the specific phase ended with the start of the next phase, the invasion of Ukraine. To change the date would require a new consensus. Thus, pinging some of other editors who have been involved in previous discussions and actively edited the article, sorry if I missed someone, so they can express their opinions. @HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith, Cinderella157, Alaexis, and RGloucester: EkoGraf (talk) 22:25, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The scope of the article is up to 24 February 2022, when it was subsumed by the Russian invasion, though this does not preclude a brief summary of what immediately followed for continuity. Per MOS:MIL, the result parameter is quite specific in what may be placed there. Being subsumed into a greater conflict is inconsistent with the result parameter but quite consistent with the status parameter when there is not a final result. An end date of 24 February 2022 is an end for defining the scope of the article. It doesn't mean that some referee walked out into no mans land and blew time. However, it is a date when the nature of the conflict transformed into something else. I don't think that readers are being misinformed by having an end date in the infobox. Some of the argument over this, including tagging of the end date as dubious is IMO petty pedantic. It probably also reflects that an infobox cannot readily capture such nuance and is not really the place for nuance. The date parameter is actually optional and being somewhat Solomonic, we could choose to omit it from the infobox, leaving it for the lead to report. Note also, that for a war, we should probably report the year rather than a specific day. Another solution is to omit the end date from the date parameter and place a date against the invasion in the status parameter per this example. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:50, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I thought it was obvious that the "War in Donbas" ended with the beginning of the full-scale invasion. I think the #1 priority here is that we do not confuse readers into thinking the war in Donbas as we define it is still ongoing. I don't have a particular preference as to how exactly we represent this in the infobox. I don't really see the problem with the "subsumed" result parameter - seems like an WP:IGNOREALLRULES situation to me, since this is an odd case that the makers of the documentation for the template probably did not consider. I think leaving out an end date is an unnecessarily bureaucratic and confusing choice, and hinders communication of the actual important facts. HappyWith (talk) 04:08, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, not obvious at all. According to the first line of the article there has been a war (lowercase w) in the Donbas region, but there is no formally titled War in the Donbas with some kind of official end date on the signing of any armistice, pullout of invasion forces, or anything else. “As we define it” is not a thing either; it’s just what we’ve written this article about, in summary style as child article of the broader Russo-Ukrainian War article. I thought it was obvious that war has continued and escalated greatly in the Donbas, not ended, and this is an actual important fact that should be communicated, not contradicted. I only see reasons to follow that rule.  —Michael Z. 16:30, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My main point is that while there may be an end date for the scope of this article, as we define it, but that is not a key fact about the subject, and so should not appear in the infobox.  —Michael Z. 16:37, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While you are discussing other matters, @Baba Mica quietly sneaked false start date [1] regardless to this discussion Talk:War in Donbas#Is there a consensus in reliable sources stating when this war started? and regardless to what sources say. Manyareasexpert (talk) 17:05, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article is too big[edit]

WP:TOOBIG needs to be applied; this article is oversized. 182.239.148.125 (talk) 09:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Alley of Angels has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 21 § Alley of Angels until a consensus is reached. Utopes (talk / cont) 02:28, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The redirect Draft:Alley of Angels has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 28 § Draft:Alley of Angels until a consensus is reached. HappyWith (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]