Talk:2021 Kilmarnock incidents

Merge Kilmarnock stabbings to 2021 Kilmarnock incidents

It might be better moving the Kilmarnock stabbings page to this page considering it documents the wider incidents.--KeyKing666 (talk) 02:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

• Resolved. @KeyKing666, Moondragon21 Thanks for your contributions at Kilmarnock stabbings I've done a WP:BOLD redirect insstead of a merge to ensure the WP:CFORK is avoided. I'm not sure there is much content to merge and if there is if you could re-apply it to this article that would be great to avoid any red-tape hoops to keep attribution from a merge. I think we an inadvertent good faith content fork here. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Should this be an article?

While initial reports indicated a hospital related incident later reports seem to be indicating towards a high profile domestic relationship dispute and it is possible the case for a Wikipedia article is marginal or not appropriate, and I personally have elected not to trigger an AfD at this time. WP:BLP should be strongly respected for the mourning period and my sympathies lie with the victims, families, and friends. Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Given the coverage this has received and the three linked incidents I believe it is worth of having its on article. The incident has made national news over the past 24-36 hours and has gained widespread attention. 2A00:23C7:F382:3E01:4C04:2DA4:C8DE:CEA8 (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes. It should remain to be an article. This is a major incident which can be identified as a mass stabbing which has taken place in Scotland and whatever the nature, it is still an incident which involved the deaths of civilians. There are articles on Wikipedia which are similar such as the Quebec City stabbing, 2020 Reading stabbings and 2020 Villejuif stabbing which share a similar number of casualties as this incident. So I think it should remain. --KeyKing666 (talk) 00:05, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Strong yes given the reasons already outlined above. Given the article at Quebec City stabbing has less references and information, I would say this article has a stronger argument to remain than the Quebec City stabbing article does. Goodreg3 (talk) 02:24, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes - this is easily notable enough for an article. Jim Michael (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou for your comments. I note and acknowledge consensus of those who have commented above. Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Title

Incidents isn't a usual part of an article title. The police & media often use the term in early reporting, but we should have something more accurate. Another issue is that only one incident of three took place in Kilmarnock. Jim Michael (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Two incidents took place in KIlmarnock, the hospital comes under KIlmarnock. The a76 road is on the outskirts so it’s easier to place it under the banner of KIlmarnock considering it’s close proximity to the town. 2A00:23C7:F382:3E01:561:744B:83C0:895D (talk) 18:38, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Many sources - including our article University Hospital Crosshouse - say that it's in Crosshouse, near Kilmarnock. Jim Michael (talk) 19:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

@Jim Michael: can you suggest an alternative? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:18, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Once the media other than the red-tops report it as such, East Ayrshire murder-suicide, 2021 East Ayrshire murders or Murders of Emma Robertson Coupland and Nicole Anderson. Jim Michael (talk) 19:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Jim Michael, and until then? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Wait for other people to suggest alternative titles & for the media to report more about the case. Jim Michael (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Jim Michael, you seemed to be questioning the current title when you raised this thread, I thought you might have an alternative in mind. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:50, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I do question it, but can't work out what title to move it to, which is why I asked about it here rather than moving it or starting/suggesting a RM. Jim Michael (talk) 21:06, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Jim Michael, fair enough. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:12, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Strong disagree to moving to long winded titles. The media have always spoken of “KIlmarnock” attacks and incidents with no mention of East Ayrshire. Crocshouse Hospital comes under KIlmarnock (I should know I live here) as does the a76 road. It is a road leading out of KIlmarnock to other destinations and is closer to KIlmarnock than anywhere else. You cannot argue with the geography of an incident. 2A00:23C7:F382:3E01:561:744B:83C0:895D (talk) 19:51, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

People who live in Crosshouse consider themselves to be living in Kilmarnock? Jim Michael (talk) 20:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Browsing e.g. Category:Stabbing attacks in 2020 for example something like 2021 Kilmarnock stabbings seems a consistent title. When the article was created the precise nature of the incident perhaps not certain and indeed seemed to be hospital related; as things have developed "stabbings" seems more precise than "incidents". Kilmarnock seems to be a perfectly adequate general description of the location. Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:24, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Crosshouse is part of the urban area of Kilmarnock, so technically speaking, as part of the urban area, Crosshouse, like Crookedholm and Hurlford are part of the wider Kilmarnock urban area. Crosshouse does not have the same status in terms of size or population to make it notable enough to change the title from Kilmarnock to Crosshouse. The hospital itself is neither in Crosshouse or Kilmarnock, in fact sits between the middle of both. It just took the name of Crosshouse Hospital due to its proximity to the village and to avoid confusion with the Kilmarnock Infirmary at the time of opening. I guess you too are a local expert from Kilmarnock? Goodreg3 (talk) 00:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

@Goodreg3: No you guess wrong I am from the Pompey/Chichester area, though I accept your declarations you have connections to the locality. I also observe you are the article creator for this (and some other articles in the vicinity). If you believe the article name should not be changed please say so. If you (or anyone) has specific alternatives please bring up specifics for discussion. My suggestion of 2021 Kilmarnock stabbings seems within the scope of the requirements of the anon-IP who claims to be a local in the thread. I see the page remains non-curated at Special:NewPagesFeed and talk of a page move may be an additional reason for the Wikipedia:New pages patrol to delay review. My feeling in this case is names of individuals are should not be in the title whereas the title should be about the event per WP:1E. Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 05:43, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Murder cats

The first two incidents were clearly murders. The only suspect is dead. Do RS need to be added to the article which use the word murder before the cats can be on the article? Jim Michael (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Jim Michael, yes, per WP:CATVER: "It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories". -- DeFacto (talk). 14:54, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Mass stabbing

The definition is usually at least 4 victims, so this article shouldn't be in the template, nor should the template be on this article. Jim Michael (talk) 02:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

3 dead and 1 injured makes 4 therefore I think it constitutes as a mass stabbing. 2A00:23C7:F382:3E01:71EB:ABF1:1BD2:FC92 (talk) 13:07, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Today's edition of The Scotsman only supports there being one stabbing in this incident.[1] -- DeFacto (talk). 13:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

See 2020 Lugano stabbing where only 2 were injured but still described as a mass stabbing. 2A00:23C7:F382:3E01:71EB:ABF1:1BD2:FC92 (talk) 13:09, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

The killer isn't a victim & wasn't stabbed. The Lugano stabbing also wasn't mass. Jim Michael (talk) 13:25, 7 February 2021 (UTC)