Talk:7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel/Archive 1

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Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... I am surprised how an important article like this is nominated for deletion!!! These are important and dangerous events! --Osps7 (talk) 05:33, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate Page

Shortly before this page was added to the current events portal, i accidentally created another page in October 2023 Gaza-Israel clashes, which is probably a better name. Either that one be deleted and merged into this or the other way around. Totalstgamer (talk) 05:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 7 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Already merged and redirected with this edit at 09:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC) Fuzheado | Talk 11:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

---

Operation Al-Aqsa Flood → October 2023 Gaza-Israel clashes – both more neutral and includes a wider scope of events, including the allegedly ongoing but undoubtedly inevitable Israeli response Totalstgamer (talk) 06:00, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - For this I tend to look at other operations. A good example is Operation Overlord. If that doesn't ring a bell, how about D-Day/Normandy invasion? Since there is an official operation name, Wikipedia's neutral naming process names based on the operation, not month/conflict. Another more recent example of this practice is Operation Martyr Soleimani in 2020. Since this isn't a specific battle (example is Operation Detachment, which redirects to the single battle location of Iwo Jima), the operation name is appropriate. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:12, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There's a convention around Gaza-Israel conflict names, such as in 2023, 2022, 2021, 2014 and 2009. What happens, inevitably, when Israel leads a counter-operation? Totalstgamer (talk) 06:15, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Then this should be taken up at a larger discussion board, since convention naming practices do not agree with each other. The 2023 clash example is solid, but like I pointed out with Operation Overlord, Wikipedia named based on the operation. I think since we have the official operation name within 2 hours of the war starting, the operation name is still the most appropriate to use here. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support, per nom, as well as Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Military history#Operational codenames and Talk:2022 Gaza–Israel clashes#Requested move 5 August 2022.

Mupper-san (talk) 06:27, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Actually, per the MOS, it might be WP:TOOSOON to tell whether or not it isn't the "famous" name. Heck, we have several reliable sources mentioning this by name (the operation name) within a few hours of it starting. This rarely happens, even in the overall Israel-Palestine conflict. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

And Operation Cast Lead is not used for the Gaza War (2008–2009). I don't see any reason that the Hamas title should be used as the primary name, especially for such a contested topic, any more than Israeli operational names should be used for other cases.

Mupper-san (talk) 06:42, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I hadn't ever heard of "Operation Cast Lead" before, so that makes perfect sense. However, also per MOS, if it is well-known, then it can be used. The following news articles mention "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood" by name: Al Jazzera, Barrons, Bloomberg, Mint, News 18, Times of Israel, Hindustan Times, and others (4-pages on Google news already for that exact quote). Per MOS, which was linked earlier, well-known military operations are named based on their operation name. The military operation started a few hours ago and we already have 4 pages of news articles mentioning it. It is TOOSOON to truly tell whether or not the operation name will stick or not. I recommend putting this requested move on hold for at least 48 hours to see if the majority of news outlets mention it by the operation name or not. This RM in general was WAY too soon, especially since right now, there is way more media outlets calling it the operation name. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support move from current NPOV title but these are looking a lot more serious than the usual "clashes," more akin to a Hamas offensive/attack/invasion of Israeli territory. PrimaPrime (talk) 06:53, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a reasoning for the NPOV title reason? Operation names are used as Wikipedia titles (i.e. Operation Overlord). If you are thinking the title violates NPOV, then you aren't actually thinking with an NPOV, given that operation titles are used for several article titles on Wikipedia. (Not an accusation at all, but an observation that a title from Hamas is NPOV, but a title from the US isn't NPOV...) In complete reality, the RM discussion isn't at all about NPOV issues/potential issues, but rather if it is the more common name, since that is what MOS states. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 06:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The main article for that topic is Normandy landings, if this conflict expands to the point where we decide to split off a separate article just about the Hamas opening strike then perhaps the Operation _____ format would be appropriate. PrimaPrime (talk) 07:18, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I’ll have to agree to disagree with you on that I guess. I still believe there is (1) enough RS sources using the “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” (or “Operation Al-Aqsa Storm” — translation differences) name to where it is the main name for this. Also, the Normandy landings isn’t the name topic for Operation Overlord. It is the most well-known part of the operation. But this isn’t (1) small clashes (given media has used the term “war” and Israel also used the term “war”) and (2) this isn’t a small battle/small part of an operation (like the Normandy landings are a small part of the whole Operation Overlord)… Operation Al-Aqsa Flood is like Operation Overlord, with these smaller “clashes”/battles across Israel and the Gaza Strip, not to mention the various rocket struck cities.

All of that is to say Operation Al-Aqsa Flood is closer to what Operation Overlord is than it is to say the Normandy landings. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 07:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Wait until dust settles GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 06:54, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Wait. this may become a full scale war. Wait until official word is given. 85.65.187.175 (talk) 07:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Israel has announced the name for its own operation to counter the incursion so a descriptive title is obviously preferable over the operation name of one party to the conflict. Lightspecs (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 08:21, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support Operation Al-Aqsa Flood is the name of the Hamas operation, Israel launched Operation Iron Swords in return, both should be covered under a WP:NPOV --Jurryaany (talk) 08:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, what is happening is unprecedented and unheard of in the last two decades. In recent history, this is extremely escalating regarding Israel-Palestine, and Israel is now in a full state of war. Winn24 (talk) 09:07, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support '2023 Gaza-Israel War'. Abo Yemen✉ 09:29, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support with an alternative name of '2023 Gaza-Israel War', given that Israel have declared a state of war. - Hu753 (talk) 09:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support The IDF is calling there operation "Operation Iron Swords" now, so should we have two articles for the same event? I don't think so. But if we are going to, we should label each by their respective operational names according to each side. Completely Random Guy (talk) 09:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Most of them uses the "Operation Al-Aqsa Flood",no need to stress out about this. MissionGuyNoob (talk) 09:49, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Support Don't need two articles for same event and as is customary in this area, we don't use operational names of one of the sides for neutrality reasons.Selfstudier (talk) 09:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Point of information - it has been redirected already with this edit at 09:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC) - Fuzheado | Talk 11:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is this the start of a new antifada ?

looks like the new antifada 2600:6C50:1B00:32BE:B1BD:E5DB:1402:2AC5 (talk) 06:23, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Until the majority of reliable sources state this, it is not. Nythar (💬-🍀) 06:43, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Antifada? it's a massacre. terrorists infiltrated the towns, broke into houses and murdered women and children 2A02:6680:1102:4DDB:31F5:AC85:6BCB:2115 (talk) 08:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

this is a war

looks like a war 2600:6C50:1B00:32BE:B1BD:E5DB:1402:2AC5 (talk) 07:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Looks like a massacre. 2A02:6680:1102:4DDB:31F5:AC85:6BCB:2115 (talk) 07:46, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Low importance?

So Israel declares a state of war and this is a "Low importance" article for both Israel and Palestine? Genabab (talk) 07:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The article will likely be re-rated later, it only just got created and it is about a current event. SignedInteger (talk) 07:59, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The location of this conflict being listed as "Gaza strip" is misleading at minimum

Obviously the terrorists came from the Gaza strip, however the operation within itself is being conducted in the surrounding area. Israel will probably retaliate inside the strip, however that has not happened yet. 87.6.58.122 (talk) 07:57, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Terrorists infiltrated the towns, broke into houses and murdered women and children. 2A02:6680:1102:4DDB:31F5:AC85:6BCB:2115 (talk) 08:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Possible avoidance of the term "resistance fighters"

In the description is currently the phrase "Palestinian resistance fighters". This possibly runs the risk of not looking neutral. In various sources right now [1] [2][3][4]they are consistently being referred to instead as "militants". Nonovix (talk) 08:47, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Fake news

The article is full with spreading of rumors and false information. One Merkava is captured and one destroyed? Over 35 soldiers, police officers and civilians captured? Those are rumors. Don't spread them. 2A10:8012:7:7A7E:AE61:EC3:4EC:4F41 (talk) 09:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

I've remove it. There is indeed some video that claims this, but they aren't verified, and no claims where made in the Palestinian media. HiyoriX (talk) 09:52, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Map of alleged territory seized by Hamas

I have stumbled upon this tweet which purportedly displays the towns under temporary Hamas occupation. Should this image be included in the article? https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1710584095632163250 Ecrusized (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

History attribution

Article is a WP:CFORK from 2023 Israel–Hamas war per talk page consensus there; for history see that page. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 19:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC on including the attack in the list of major terrorist incidents

See here. François Robere (talk) 14:41, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas document

"The mission of the department - to attack Kibbutz Alumim with the aim of obtaining as many casualties as possible, taking hostages and preparing within the Kibbutz until further instructions are received." publish at kan. https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/566768/ 2.55.164.196 (talk) 18:20, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

“The terrorist attack was met with an Israeli counteroffensive”

(sited at Wikipedia that US and UN declared Hamas as a terror organization) 2A02:14F:17A:F5C5:45CD:786C:C5:8BC9 (talk) 08:03, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This is already well-covered under the section Israeli response. Tollens (talk) 10:58, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Nope.. still doesn’t say terror attack. Again- Hamas is declared as a terror organization 2A06:C701:4A08:FB00:38E3:61FE:DA96:4EAC (talk) 16:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah - I misunderstood the request. Please see MOS:TERRORIST. Tollens (talk) 20:59, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

no Abo Yemen✉ 17:10, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2023 (2)

Israel has killed gaza civillian around 2200 people, most of them are child and woman. Astha47 (talk) 22:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This article is only about the attacks carried out by Hamas on 7 October – please see 2023 Israel–Hamas war for the article about the war as a whole, which already includes this information. Tollens (talk) 03:43, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2023 (2)

Change word MILITANT from “conducted by the Palestinian Islamist MILITANT group Hamas”

To “terrorist”

“conducted by the Palestinian Islamist terrorist group Hamas”

SOURCE: Director of National Intelligence - Counter terrorism unit: https://www.dni.gov/nctc/groups/hamas.html 96.225.21.157 (talk) 16:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. This is a controversial change that seems to go against MOS:LABEL. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 19:49, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 October 2023

The death toll for the music festival massacre was 270+, not 260 172.195.84.132 (talk) 03:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 22:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Added hat note for a redirect for "7 October 2023"

Since this seems to be the main historic event for this day, I have added a hat note for a redirect from "7 October 2023" to this article. Dmy format is standard in this part of the world. This event has been heavily compared to both the Pearl Harbor attack and 9/11. The January 6 United States Capitol attack has a hat note for redirect from "January 6, 2021" and the Attack on Pearl Harbor has a hat note on "December 7, 1941" as a redirect, so why not have one for this event as well? I don't think that a redirect for "10/7" or "7/10" is appropriate since I don't see that many sources calling it the "10/7 attacks" but I think that "7 October 2023" is appropriate. Undescribed (talk) 02:53, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

RfC on including the attack in the List of Islamist terrorist attacks

See here. TarnishedPath^talk 07:46, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Document

The document showing Hamas aimed to target children in schools was supposedly going to take place 7th of october - during sabbath day when schools are closed. suggests fabrication. 85.231.117.101 (talk) 08:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

900 Israeli civilians?

Hi, is there any source support that "all the 900 deaths" are civilians? If not, it should be "900 deaths" without "civilians". Thanks.-- فيصل (talk) 23:08, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

alharb ealayk there is way more than 900 only few of them are soldiers אמיר יוגב (talk) 07:25, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

It's actually 1300 deaths in total at the moment (it might be more). 900 of them were civilians. SuperSardus (talk) 17:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah but he asked for sources Abo Yemen✉ 05:23, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.trtafrika.com/world/live-blog-israeli-attacks-kill-900-civilians-including-260-children-in-gaza-15330698 A3811 (talk) 08:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Total Israeli deaths are about 1400, the absolute majority are civilian.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/12/israel-hamas-war-gaza-civilian-deaths

https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001459676

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-refugees-6cf0ff04e513ecec12cf9152656ac1b6 Homerethegreat (talk) 16:56, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

worst casualties since the Holocaust?

This statement seems to not bear up to some fact-checking, I'm not sure if it should be amplified so prominently. Didn't more people die in 1973? Andre🚐 03:44, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The statement is actually worst single-day massacre of Jews since the Holocaust, which is correct. BilledMammal (talk) 03:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Because 1973 happened over multiple days? Or it's not considered a massacre? Andre🚐 04:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Both; my understanding is that no massacres took place during the Yom Kipper war, and it took place over almost three weeks. BilledMammal (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Quick question, what is the worst single day massacre of Palestinians? Selfstudier (talk) 16:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

@Andrevan: I find the overall framing rather curious. We know that the majority were Israelis, and that there were also many non-Israelis, and some dual nationals, etc., but who decided the head count of people that identified as Jews (as opposed to other identities, e.g. irreligious Israeli) and matched it up against historical figures? I get that the Israeli government racially profiles everyone with Jewish ancestry as Jewish, and I assume this is going by their summations, but it seems very late 19th-century to early 20th-century to actually be counting people by the religious/ethnic affiliation, when they were not, for example, attending a house of worship ... and not forgetting Israeli Arabs were also killed. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:22, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, we do know that Hamas targeted Jewish people in kibbutzim and predominantly Jewish settlements, but yes, we don't actually know how many were Jewish versus Christian, Arab, or other. But the sources are likely assuming any Israeli-sounding non-Arab-sounding person is a Jewish Israeli, which is probably a reasonable assumption to make, and it's not us making that assumption but relying on reliable sources. I still think it's possibly not a great statement for many reasons, but it's probably a fair assumption that Hamas didn't take any Arabs hostage. Andre🚐 17:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

"7 October 2023" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 7 October 2023 has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 October 16 § 7 October 2023 until a consensus is reached. Merlin^sorca 18:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

An RfC related to this article is ongoing

You can participate in the Request for Comment (RfC) in the Request for Comment (RfC) in this discussion. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 02:22, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

What the hell is this lede?

The lede paragraphs need a major rewrite. Run-on sentences abound throughout, and I cannot even decipher the reasoning behind some of the language used.

"Operation Al-Aqsa Flood is a series of coordinated attacks, conducted by the Palestinian Islamist militant group Hamas, from the Gaza Strip, onto bordering areas in Israel commencing on Saturday 7 October 2023 that coincided with the Jewish Shabbat and the Jewish holiday of Shemini Atzeret and Simchat Torah that many Israeli Jews were celebrating, and virtually fifty years to the day of the Yom Kippur War that began on 6 October 1973."

All of that is one sentence, features two commas and no other punctuation whatsoever, and has some of the most out-of-place, floaty wordage I have ever seen. "virtually fifty years to the day"? 74.90.120.18 (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

You seem to be just criticizing the prose without offering any real improvements, but I agree things can always be improved. There's nothing actually wrong with something being "virtually" 50 years in common parlance, though maybe a better word would be "just over" 50 years (if that is accurate) Andre🚐 02:45, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Add paragraph about Shin Bet director taking responsibility for security failure

I would like to propose the following additional paragraph to this article:

In an all-staff memo made public on Monday, 16 October 2023, Bar took responsibility for failing to thwart the 7 October 2023 attack by Hamas militants (Operation Al-Aqsa Flood). "The responsibility is mine. Despite a series of actions we carried out, unfortunately, on Saturday we were unable to establish sufficient deterrence so as to thwart the attack," he wrote. "There will be time for investigations. Now we are fighting." ScottWade56 (talk) 23:06, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure Andre🚐 02:46, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Terrorists are not Militants

Hamas is recognized as a terrorist group by the USA and the EU. They are not freedom fighters or "militants" they are terrorists. 2600:1017:B800:309F:CD32:6C62:983:2E19 (talk) 19:27, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Multiple agencies have flat out said that Hamas is a non-state entity. Even if they still partially govern the Palestine Gaza strip that doesnt mean that they arent still terrorists. ISIS governed certain areas for a bit as well. Whats the difference here? All this far-left "freedom fighter" and militant propaganda is undermining the credibility of Wikipedia. Just call them what 75% of sources are calling them which is terrorists. Undescribed (talk) 20:39, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

New Zealand takes the time to make the distinction between Hamas and Qassam Brigades, wikipedia should too 2600:4040:5AEA:6800:CD64:9665:E4FD:7230 (talk) 08:31, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal: Add a section for use of propaganda and disproved claims

Throughout this conflict, we have seen retracted statements from news stations for both sides, and I think it's important to list disproved claims (retracted statements, articles on use of propaganda, articles disproving claims) as there has been a lot of disinformation spread that really needs to be addressed.

A section for use of propaganda with clarification on whether it's likely true would be very important for maintaining objectivity on a topic that has so much disinformation. 84.70.109.87 (talk) 22:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Support from United States

Add to Belligerents the United States as a supporter and supplier for Israel. KaderRocket (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2023

This page claims beheaded babies were found and this been debunked several times over 2604:2D80:1014:D200:4C74:328C:9943:B520 (talk) 01:06, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Liu1126 (talk) 09:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Why flood?

طوفان (ṭūfān) means storm. Flood means سِیل (seil) in Arabic. Many sourses call the operation "Al-Aqsa storm".

P.S.: I don't know what this reference is at the end of the Talk page. Aminabzz (talk) 13:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

No it's not storm, storm in Arabic is عاصفة, but طوفان is flood just like طوفان نوح Genesis flood. KaderRocket (talk) 17:41, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

English language sources preferred "flood" in the first hours so that name came to dominate. That's the "why". Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:08, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Name of conflict

Mohammed Deif, commander of the attack, named the operation "Al-Aqsa Flood"

Where does this info come from? I do not find it in the reference following the sentence. Hubba (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Unauthentic claim

The IDF, White House, and other news channels confirm that there were NO babies beheaded. This seems to feed the disinformation regarding the conflict. Should be removed. 2607:FEA8:4F9D:4DA0:0:0:0:964C (talk) 04:15, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

From where is your information? 2A02:14F:17A:F5C5:45CD:786C:C5:8BC9 (talk) 08:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

This is one problem with early splitting, the parent article needs to be checked as it is constantly changing, most of this page is already present at the parent and things on this page that have changed in the parent need to be changed here.

The latest info on this specifically is here. Selfstudier (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

I have tried to revert it once but it seems to reinstated, I can’t do it again because of 1RR The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 03:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0el9wiOBmmM

Al jazeera gives many evidences of how this info is just a matter of western propaganda. Should be deleted! 217.171.73.131 (talk) 09:24, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I've added a clarification from the main article. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 12:48, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

North korean weapons believed to be used during attack

Please add this to both this article and the main article.

South Korean officials and weapons experts have determined that Hamas used North Korean RPGs during the attack.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-north-korea-weapons-703e33663ea299f920d0d14039adfbb8 2601:40:C481:A940:34D6:6FC2:2C04:FAF7 (talk) 18:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Territorial changes

@WeatherWriter: When territorial changes are listed in infoboxes, we're talking changes that lasted after the end of the given battle. In its current shape, the infobox states that Hamas is currently occupying several kibbutzes, which is not accurate. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 16:43, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mikrobølgeovn: Ah ok. Thank makes sense. I just changed the wording since the only current territory occupied by Hamas is Bahad 4, as sourced in the Battle of Zikim article. Cheers! The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 17:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@WeatherWriter: While I don't plan to contest any of your edits regarding Bahad 4 here or anywhere else, could you please direct me to where in the Battle of Zikim article it states that the base is, as you said, currently occupied? (i.e. on 19 October, though I'll welcome any source from the past five days that remotely suggests current occupation) SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:42, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I am unable to find any. This happened a few times during the Russia-Ukraine conflict last year, where a battle occurred and it was sometimes more than 2-3 weeks before news came out about some victory and/or occupation/recapture taking place. I may be incorrect in my interpretation here, but I'm pretty sure that per WP:OR & WP:VNT, we have to keep the battle/military base occupation as "ongoing"/"Hamas capture" since we have sources saying they captured it (back when the Operation began) as well as more recent TOI on October 13, which doesn't directly mention the base, but mentions Hamas attempting to infiltrate Zikim town, which is what other sources say as well. I've not seen a source saying Israel retook the base either. Really weird and complicated, but to avoid WP:OR/WP:SYNTH territory, I believe (maybe wrong interpretation of policy though) we have to keep it saying Bahad 4 is still occupied by Hamas. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Ongoing?

In what sense is the attack "ongoing"? The focal point is, of course, Oct 7. I understand it took a few days of fighting for IDF to recapture and secure its territory, which arguably is part of the same event. But surely what is happening as of Oct 17 is a part of the ensuing war? –St.nerol (talk) 20:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Zikim is ongoing still. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:18, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

A lack of reporting on Zikim does not indicate that a battle is ongoing; on the contrary, it seems to me that it suggests nothing out of the ordinary has been going on there lately. Admittedly, I do not have the sources to claim that the battle has definitively ended, but there's also nothing to back up your assertions that the battle is currently ongoing. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Eh. It's weird territory. We can't say the battle ended (can't violate WP:OR or WP:VNT), but there really isn't anything saying it is still "ongoing" (as of October 19), besides a TOI article on October 13, which indicated there was still fighting in Zikim. For a completely different circumstance and situation, I wrote a small essay about the VNT essay-guideline being used in a real example/instance. In that example, there was a RfC which held up the WP:VNT ideology when WP:RS became outdated by newer primary sources. In that instance, since no secondary source stated the new primary source information, the now factually inaccurate information had to remain in the article, as there was WP:RS specifically stating it. While that is not even really close to this situation, the ideology of WP:VNT is still in play. We have sources saying the base was captured, but no sources saying the battle ended/or is ongoing/or was recaptured. So, we as editors are stuck and can't change it without violating WP:OR/WP:SYNTH territory. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 19:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Weird territory indeed. Thank you for the explanation. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 19:15, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2023 (2)

Add to Belligerents the United States and Germany as a supporter and supplier for Israel. KaderRocket (talk) 17:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

https://www.defense.gov/News/Releases/Release/Article/3551716/statement-from-secretary-lloyd-j-austin-iii-on-us-force-posture-changes-in-the/ KaderRocket (talk) 18:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. The requested change is likely to be contentious. Melmann 10:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

CHANGE in Belligerents From:

Israel

TO

Israel

Supported by:

USA

GERMANY KaderRocket (talk) 16:46, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

it's an article not a rocket science, I said add USA and Germany as supporters of Israel. KaderRocket (talk) 10:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades to belligerents in infobox

Israel National News translates the brigade as having announced "We were there from the start of the 'Al Aqsa Flood' operation."

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC) SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:39, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

References

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Is the contention that the word Operation should not be first in the title? Melmann 08:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Please add the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades to the belligerents section in the infobox. Source is provided. No contention with the word Operation being in the title. My only wish is to have this group added to the infobox SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 October 2023

United States Statement From Secretary Lloyd J. Austin III on U.S. Force Posture Changes in the Middle East. [5] KaderRocket (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Brendan ❯❯❯ Talk 18:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Can the "Lions' Den" really be considered a belligerent in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood?

According to this article and its sources, the term Operation Al-Aqsa Flood has primarily been used to refer to the attacks out of the Gaza Strip on southern Israeli territory, not on any other front (e.g. Southern Lebanon or the West Bank). Can the Lions' Den, an insurgent group solely operating out of the West Bank, really be considered a participant specifically in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:54, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Remove the Lions' Den from the belligerents section in the infobox.

References fail verification that this organization is a belligerent in Operation al-Aqsa Flood. References only claim that the group announced a mobilization and publicly called for its supporters to attack, particularly "lone wolves."

If attacks have been attributed by reliable sources to the group, or if reliable sources report the group has claimed responsibility for attacks, please add these references to the article or make an extended-confirmed-edit request to do so.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Brendan ❯❯❯ Talk 05:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Shadowrvn728 Appreciate the clarification regarding the use of the template as I am a relatively new editor. I have achieved consensus on the 2023 Israel-Hamas war article for the same edit I sought to have made here. Considering the same references are used in both articles to make the same claim, and they've already been found to fail verification of that claim in the first article, is it necessary to establish consensus again on this talk page?

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 15:46, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Melmann 04:25, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@User:Melmann How so? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 04:44, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Time frame?

When this article was split from 2023 Israel–Hamas war, the intention was for it to be about the initial sudden Hamas attack on various Israeli towns on 7 October. I notice that since then the time period of the article has been adjusted to "7 October 2023 – present", in which case I have to ask what the scope of the article actually is if it's now including attacks up to the present day? That seems to somewhat defeat the purpose of the initial split. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 04:11, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It depends of the original objetive of HAMAS leadership. The attack itself have provided HAMAS with scores of captured soldiers/officers and civilians abductees, HAMAS always wanted to achieve that situation with Israeli autorities, for a future prisioner exchages. Like the case of Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange.Mr.User200 (talk) 20:42, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Chessrat, the reasons for this was explained up in Talk:Operation Al-Aqsa Flood#Ongoing?. In short, one of the battles started on 7 October is still ongoing as no source has said the battle ended or that the military base captured by Hamas during the battle was re-captured by Israel. That is the only reason it is still ongoing. 99% of the operation ended, but we as editors can't violate WP:OR or WP:SYNTH to confirm the 100% mark, given that ongoing battle. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 20:46, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd say that additional minor Hamas attacks on Zikim recently shouldn't fall under the scope of the article on the main October 7 attacks, really. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 21:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Wikipedia would have to say Hamas won the battle as it is still ongoing with clashes still ongoing for several days. Aka, we have to say the initial battle was soley on the military base, which Hamas captured, and that the "minor clashes" ongoing aren't part of the main battle won by Hamas. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:13, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

About the title

I think the current title is misleading. "Al-Aqsa Flood" is Hamas's name for the entire ongoing war, not just the attack on Oct 7. Moazfargal (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

@Moazfargal: Interesting claim. Do you have a source? Please chime into the discussion on the requested move above! –St.nerol (talk) 21:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Disregard the part about participating in the requested-move discussion, since there are contentious-topic sanctions limiting it to extended-confirmed users. Moaz previously did comment there, but the comment was removed. SilverLocust 💬 01:52, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas are not militant organizations. It's a terrorist organization. Please correct it immediately!

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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There is no way that you guys aproived the Hamas to be referred as a military organization. A military soldier will not tape or murder civilians or babies or old people. That is outrageous! Fix it now. 46.116.245.217 (talk) 20:59, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

A military soldier will not tape or murder civilians very funny. M.Bitton (talk) 21:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

They also "forgot" to mention all the

Rapes, organs cut offs and chopping, eye pullings and a fetus cut out of his mother's womb while she's still alive.. 2600:1702:522A:3000:4C91:3D2A:C02:3348 (talk) 21:22, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Complete seige on whole of gaza

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Why is it not mentioned in the israel response section that they cut off the supply of.food water fuel to the whole.of the gaza strip? Where over 2.2 million people live over half.of whom.are.children? That is literally the main action israel have taken. Also the constant bombardment of gaza since october 7th? What about the number of people killed in gaza since the 7th?

It's just SLIGHTLY biased it seems 82.18.180.209 (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Clearly you haven't actually checked out anything of what you just said, given you somehow didn't see the 28,000+ character article called October 2023 Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip. Either way, I am closing this as WP:NOTAFORUM. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

If you would like to have an edit made to the article, please explain what that would be and provide appropriate reliable sources in support. Thank you. Selfstudier (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.