Talk:88 Precepts
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Religious Philosophy
[edit]Why is the fact that the 88 Precepts outline some of David Lane's religious philosophy being left out? The very first precept says: "Any law or teaching which denies the Natural Law of the Universe is false", along with addressing the fundamental of religion elsewhere throughout the 88 Precepts. Wikipedia can't just chose anti-racist pieces of verses and then throw them unto a fair and ubiased article. This isn't "RationalWiki". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.134.96 (talk) 05:49, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Notability
[edit]This stub doesn't appear to me to have much potential for expansion, at least not based on reliable, third-party sources. Perhaps merging to David Lane would be best, and I might just do that anyway if there's no interest in addressing this, and if nobody beats me to it. Grayfell (talk) 22:55, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
- As I said last year, this essay doesn't appear to be noteworthy independent of David Lane. I had mistakenly tagged this as a book, but regardless, sources still do not support that this essay is notable:
- While the ADL reference on 14/88 may be useful for context, it doesn't mention Lane or the precepts, so it cannot be used for notability. I have replaced it with this source, which contains essentially the same information as it relates to Lane. It only perfunctorily mentions the 88 precepts essay. Based on this source, this article should be merged to Fourteen Words, since the essay is an extension of that idea.
- Gods of the Blood mentions the "book" only once as part of a list of publications from 14 Words Press, and says nothing in particular about it or its content. This is simply not enough to establish notability.
- This article from the National Writing Project may be of some limited use, but it's not substantially about the essay. It discusses it as context from
- This article about Lane from the ADL only mentions the precepts in passing, again as part of a list of Lane's works.
- Based on these, I still think this should be merged to either Lane's articles, or the Fourteen Words article. Grayfell (talk) 23:09, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Greyfell: I'd suggest either a merge request or an RfC perhaps to determine which. Doug Weller talk 16:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
- And I have removed it. When talking of David Eden Lane, there ought to be some serious research proving that his 88 Precepts stem from a salute to Adolf Hitler. David Eden Lane's philosophy does not seem to stem from Adolf Hitler or Nazism, although he heavily drew from his ideas about propaganda, so much that the number 88 is said to be a reference to a paragraph in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf on how to conduct propaganda, which is said to consist of 88 words in its English translation and, reportedly, 99 words in its German original. I know that the precepts seem to be artificially inflated to reach the number 88, but there may be plenty of other reasons why, such as the number 88 written in Arabic numerals looking symmetrical. But there do not seem to be any serious matter proving David Eden Lane's links with Adolf Hitler. David Eden Lane probably had his ideas from the Lost Cause of the Confederacy, whereas the Nazis' ideas were drawn from the anti-Jewish legacy of the German Protestantism. There may have been some overlap, sometimes to a considerable extent, but suggesting or insinuating that a leader of American White separatism was somehow a follower of German Nazism sounds like a nonsensical conclusion, too overbroad, like claims that the Nazis were followers of the Lost Cause because their racial segregation laws were inspired by Jim Crow laws. There are overlaps, but on a significant enough level, maybe on the level of far-right music bands or Christianity, where some Nazis believed that Jesus Christ was an Aryan prophet murdered by the Jews, or something to that effect. Curiously enough, the claims that 88 stands for "Heil Hitler" seem to be propagated mostly by Jewish groups, such as Anti-Defamation League, which, being as obviously Jewish as the Fourteen Words being obviously White supremacist, do have a strong conflict of interest when it comes to the leader of the Nazi movement. the Southern Poverty Law Center does seem to have a better standing, but they also have a conflict of interest when it comes to White supremacism, they are not independent observers or researchers, they both do have their agendas. And linking "88" to "Heil Hitler" may as well be just a smear attempt by these groups. --78.99.122.96 (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
- This was in reference to the ADL source mentioned above. Wikipedia is not a platform for WP:OR, so I have restored the source. Grayfell (talk) 11:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: Revisiting your suggestion about merging into Fourteen Words... That's probably something that should be discussed. Like you, I don't see this expanding all that much beyond what it currently is, and they essentially go together anyway (i.e. 14/88). ButlerBlog (talk) 11:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Merged. Since I've apparently been talking about this for five years, and nobody seemed strongly opposed, it's not even particularly WP:BOLD. Obviously anyone can revert and we can go through a more formal process if necessary. Grayfell (talk) 06:35, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Grayfell: Revisiting your suggestion about merging into Fourteen Words... That's probably something that should be discussed. Like you, I don't see this expanding all that much beyond what it currently is, and they essentially go together anyway (i.e. 14/88). ButlerBlog (talk) 11:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- This was in reference to the ADL source mentioned above. Wikipedia is not a platform for WP:OR, so I have restored the source. Grayfell (talk) 11:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- And I have removed it. When talking of David Eden Lane, there ought to be some serious research proving that his 88 Precepts stem from a salute to Adolf Hitler. David Eden Lane's philosophy does not seem to stem from Adolf Hitler or Nazism, although he heavily drew from his ideas about propaganda, so much that the number 88 is said to be a reference to a paragraph in Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf on how to conduct propaganda, which is said to consist of 88 words in its English translation and, reportedly, 99 words in its German original. I know that the precepts seem to be artificially inflated to reach the number 88, but there may be plenty of other reasons why, such as the number 88 written in Arabic numerals looking symmetrical. But there do not seem to be any serious matter proving David Eden Lane's links with Adolf Hitler. David Eden Lane probably had his ideas from the Lost Cause of the Confederacy, whereas the Nazis' ideas were drawn from the anti-Jewish legacy of the German Protestantism. There may have been some overlap, sometimes to a considerable extent, but suggesting or insinuating that a leader of American White separatism was somehow a follower of German Nazism sounds like a nonsensical conclusion, too overbroad, like claims that the Nazis were followers of the Lost Cause because their racial segregation laws were inspired by Jim Crow laws. There are overlaps, but on a significant enough level, maybe on the level of far-right music bands or Christianity, where some Nazis believed that Jesus Christ was an Aryan prophet murdered by the Jews, or something to that effect. Curiously enough, the claims that 88 stands for "Heil Hitler" seem to be propagated mostly by Jewish groups, such as Anti-Defamation League, which, being as obviously Jewish as the Fourteen Words being obviously White supremacist, do have a strong conflict of interest when it comes to the leader of the Nazi movement. the Southern Poverty Law Center does seem to have a better standing, but they also have a conflict of interest when it comes to White supremacism, they are not independent observers or researchers, they both do have their agendas. And linking "88" to "Heil Hitler" may as well be just a smear attempt by these groups. --78.99.122.96 (talk) 19:28, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Request to include source information
[edit]Where is the link or original text 88 precepts. How we can discuss subject, if content of subject itself is not know ? https://archive.org/stream/88Precepts_937/88Precepts_djvu.txt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.109.16.254 (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)
- Correct. I'll add it. Around the coroner (talk) 10:42, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, not correct. This isn't a platform for "discussion" of the topic, this is a platform for discussing how to improve the Wikipedia article. Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable sources. Lane's writing is not a reliable source. Further, articles should be based on independent sources.
- Additionally, See WP:TPG. Do not modify other people's comments for grammar. Grayfell (talk) 23:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)