Talk:Ahmad Sohrab

Cleanup

I just threw a bunch of stuff in here. Please help add and cleanup. Thanks. Wjhonson 07:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

New History Society and Caravan House

Terrific resource in [1]! Thanks Wjhonson.

It does document that a descendant organization of Caravan House is still in business.

I can't find anything on "New History Society". It's pretty clear that this is truly shuttered. (By the way I find pages and pages of Baha'i groups listed, so I think this a comprehensive database.) MARussellPESE 14:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The thing is, I don't think the "New Historical Society" was a tax-exempt organization. So it wouldn't be listed. I think it was a for-profit publishing house. At least, the only references I can find to it, deal with it's publishing something or other, books, magazine, phamplets, etc. I'm still looking into it. Wjhonson 19:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

In the age we live in now, if a company doesn't have their own website, they are pretty insignificant. At some point you'll have to conclude that the lack of information is meaningful. It's enough to delete Caravan of East and West because it's non-notable. Cuñado - Talk 19:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with Cuñado. There are lots of active, if obscure, NFPs out there. But, if one has a name, then they should turn up in a phone book, or by reference, somewhere. Caravan does. New History doesn't.

However, I don't think the "New History Society" was just a publishing house. There are also references to "New History Foundation"; which I think is the publishing house. There are tons of references to this organization through the '40s. They taper off sharply in the '50s and I can't find anything after '59 (His autobiography).

What's significant about the taxexemptworld site is that it seems to be a fairly complete database, so having a web presence is not an issue. MARussellPESE 20:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It is a bit confusing, which is why I've been adding bits and pieces here and there as I encounter them. It appears that the "Foundation" was maybe created a little later. I did a reference to where a Foundation was created with her lawyer as it's head for the chance that one day Julie and Sohrab would no longer be around. So that sounds like "later-on" to me, just not sure how much. And the only useful thing I can find today is that this address has an Italian language school. But even I don't think a school can generate a million dollars a year so that just doesn't quite compute yet. Maybe I'll actually call them and ask them what they do :) That would be interesting. Wjhonson 05:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh the other thing Cunado about notable, is that a company or organization doesn't need to be notable *today* in order to be notable. There are thousands of pages on obscure individuals who I can guarantee you 99% of everybody has never heard of, but yet they get a page because in their day, they were somebody. And you have to admit, an organization that could say they had a membership of 250,000 was definitely notable. Wjhonson 05:38, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I found something else.... this is weird. OK one of the Ruth White books published by the "Universal Publishing Company" ? their address is... the address of Caravan House. So now we have another name to search under. Wjhonson 05:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay this new one the "Universal Publishing Company" evidently is defunct because another company with that name "was started in 1963 by....". So the Caravaners published under this name maybe from like 1930ish to like 1950ish. At any rate I went searching for anything else published by this company and found this one

author: Muzumdar, Haridas Thakordas title: The united nations of the world: a treatise on how to win the peace publisher: New York: Universal publishing co., [1944]

Who is this Muzumdar character? Wjhonson 06:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of any of those authors, and a quick e-search of Baha'i references came up with nothing.

I had the same thought about just calling them and asking. I hope you actually do it, I'd be very curious to see how they got from 1929 to present, including the various name changes. I also noticed that an Italian school is run out of that address.

I think one thing is clear, and this is what I've been putting my energy into, is that all the references point to the idea that once its founders died, it no longer carried a Baha'i identity. Even while the founders were alive, it was founded as a goodwill organization to promote social principles, so even then the Baha'i identity is minor. No doubt that a movement they started has an incorporated company still alive, but it might as well be a different movement altogether, and doesn't mean that Sohrab created a schism that still exists.

In regards to the notability, after I thought about it more I changed my mind. Cuñado - Talk 06:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding flippant: Wjhonson, is it beginning to make some sense why Bahá'ís generally dismiss these groups as inconsequential? You, yourself, are having the Devil's-own-time finding the current whereabouts of a group that gave Shoghi Effendi and the American Bahá'ís fits for thirty years. What better place to leave documentation that the U.S.? All indications seem to have this organization collapsing on Sohrab's demise, the Caravan going its own way long before.

The Azalis have managed to muster one whole website, and mostly live on in Browne's work. The best case they present is, actually, made by W.M. Miller. The remnants of Bahá'u'lláh's family don't even seem to have a name, much less a following. And the Remeyite groups can't seem to survive the death of any group's current leader without distintegrating. Observing these groups as inconsequential doesn't need to rely on poetic readings of the Bahá'í "Covenant"; history's been bearing it out. MARussellPESE 13:10, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I am not championing the cause of "Baha'i shouldn't dismiss these groups" however. I am intersted in how religions movements splinter and what happens to those splinters. It doesn't concern me how many people follow each leader or how obscure the group becomes. Just tracing their history from beginning to end. To that end, it's interesting to me that I can't, so far, find references to Sohrab and Chanler's group from 1967 to today. But it doesn't surprise me. When things get obscure they tend to get buried deeper and deeper. I mean look at Ruth White. She lived to 100 and yet, can you find any reference on what she was doing from say 1945 on ? Every once-famous person is the same way though, movie stars, athletes, assassins... they are famous then sink into relative obscurity. But people are still interested to see what they are up to today. A biography shouldn't stop at the end of a person or groups "famous period", it should go from birth to death. So far we've got the birth down pat, but we're missing the death. Wjhonson 03:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The Washington Post

It's interesting these newspaper articles I'm finding on Sohrab, are pushing back the beginning of his "notable period" you might say. Here is one which gives us a slew of people to check for to see if they were *somebody* or not. Personally, at the moment I don't recognize any of them, but who knows. I didn't know who Chanler was until I looked. Wjhonson 03:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The Washington Post, Oct 15, 1911, pg 13 "The first number of the Monthly Bulletin of the Persian-American Educational Society was issued last week from the general offices of the society, 1300 Belmont road. Its contents consist mainly of an interesting article by the secretary of the society, Joseph H. Hannen, on the history and progress of the organization.

"The officers of the society are: President, William H. Hoar, Fanwood, N. J.; vice presidents, Howard S. Reeside, Washington; Mrs. Fannie Fern Andrews, Boston; Hermann Schoenfeld, Washington; Mrs. Agnes Parson, Washington, and Hooper Harris, New York; general counsel, Henry C. Finkelstein, Washington; treasurer, Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, Washington; assistant treasurer, Mrs. E. C. Dunlop, Washington; secretary, Joseph H. Hannen, Washington; assistant secretary, Arnault Belmont, Washington; librarian, Mrs. Marian C. Hotchkiss, Washington; assistant librarian, Mrs. Joseph H. Hannan, Washington." END-OF-ARTICLE

I linked them all just-in-case. Look we got a hit Wjhonson 03:57, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

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Ahmad Sohrab was a Bahá'í.

Ahmad Sohrab was a Bahá'í. On March 31, 1941, the New York Supreme Court dismissed a court case brought by National Spiritual Assembly and Trustees of the Bahá'ís of the United States and Canada against Mirza Ahmad Sohrab for the use of the word "Bahá'í." The judge granted a motion to dismiss, stating that "the plaintiffs have no right to a monopoly of the name of a religion. The defendants, who purport to be members of the same religion, have an equal right to use the name of the religion..."

Regards, A35821361 (talk) 17:26, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I happen to agree, and that is not relevant to the material being deleted. The label "Free Baha'i" is a modern invention that posthumously chose to confer membership to Sohrab. Cuñado ☼ - Talk 22:59, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

References