Talk:Ambling gait

Untitled

Just my opinion, but this looks more like it belongs as a dictionary definition than an encyclopedia article. I'd suggest a transwiki tag here.Fightindaman 17:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just started the article. Several more paragraphs are coming. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-11 17:59

You might want to change the words "Fino Strip" to "Sounding board", just because the "strip was imported from Colombia at least into Puerto Rico some time in the 1970s (Sepulveda). I don't know when it was imported into the continental USA. And, they used and use it there to listen to fino, trocha, trot and canter( all gaits). The Costa Rican Saddle horses are judged on a variety of wooden board too, and have to trot in place on it for a set amount of time ( minutes) in competition. I am looking to see what they call it, but it will likely be the "Sounding Board" too.Arsdelicata (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you can source it, go ahead and just do it! Montanabw^(talk) 21:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inserting online references to "Sounding Board"

"In fact, we encourage the use of a sounding board to clarify gait and heart monitors to track the capability of each individual horse to recoup from fatigue."American Gaited endurance horse Assosiation Arsdelicata (talk) 10:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Extra tests may be asked by the judge which include: dismounting and remounting in line-up, executing the corto gait over a sounding board, serpentines, halt on the rail combined with a backup or dismount and remount." Piedmont Paso Fino Horse Association Arsdelicata (talk) 10:24, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The raised platform serves as a sounding board for the horse's feet. The judge listens to the gait, and is very particular about how quickly the horse<snip>" Google Books, Ref to Gait and the Sounding Board Arsdelicata (talk) 10:49, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
" He performed the Paso Fino Gaits on a sounding Board" ( talking about Colombian Paso Resorte IV)" [Conquerors by Bennett]Arsdelicata (talk) 10:54, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
International Paso Horse rules "IPHF offers Paso Fino (pleasure, performance, and fino), Trocha, Trote Galope, and Trocha Galope. IPHF also offers equitation competitions for youth riders based on international rules. The Trocha, Trote Galope and Trocha Galope classes will be conducted pursuant to Confepaso rules.<snip> " A solid continuous surface sounding board, at least forty-eight (48) feet long, with no more than one half (½) inch spaces between the boards placed at ground level should be used to clearly exhibit the clarity and rhythm of the Classic Fino gait. " International Paso Horse Federation Arsdelicata (talk) 11:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Picture proposal

Sure the current pic is nice, but it's quite small, especially for bigger displays. How about this one? It's larger, it has nice colours and a good non-busy background, and the horse has a good quality tölt, definitely better than the other left-facing ones with reasonable backgrounds in Commons; the horse even has a reasonably nice conformation. The pace isn't too race-speed or lazy either. Pitke (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It IS a lovely photo--Except that the horse appears to be pacing, not tölting (two feet are off the ground, an ambling gait requires three feet on the ground). I think it's better as an illustration of the flying pace...maybe see if it's in the Icelandic horse article, and if not, check on the talk page there about maybe adding it. (That article is a Featured Article, so we have to be super careful about proper licensing of any images that are added.) The point of all the ambling gaits is not that they are fast, but that they are smoother than a trot, of course. though I once rode a paso fino who could largo faster than a little fat quarter horse with her on the trail could canter! But keep looking, I'm always game for improvement! Montanabw^(talk) 02:58, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are a few things because I'm almost 100 % sure it's tölt.

One foot on ground (right hind is an inch off) actually, and this is not important as depending on the pace (and the quality) there can be as much as three feet on the ground (two feet, while clearly tölt); this is actually the current imahe a fraction later; the right front knee is only slightly lower and the right foot is only a bit farther forward, and the whole horse is a tad more farther forward on his weight, but can you really claim this is pace and the current picture is not?

Definitely not a pace, clearly a four-beat gait, could possibly even be a walk with a lot of leg action...too bad the background is so cluttered and the horse so hairy and ill-groomed.

This is the next stage (with two feet on the ground but clearly not pace) (could be used but I thought a close duplicate of the current pic was desired, and this has a car in the background)

Not bad, though the existing photo has better form, at least for the rider, the car is a distraction, but I agree, it's not a pace --MTBW

Pics like this and this had me suspect my judgement for a while, but I noticed the "pacing" off-the-ground legs move far too far from the expected unisono of pace (as seen here); these are high end fourgaiters or fivegaiters, photographed at a gait competition, so to have pace this muddled would be far-fetched

Icelandics have a lot of action, other breeds less so, look at pacing Standardbreds, for example. Feet closer to the ground.--MTBW

114 Ofsi is, I admit, marginal, the horse is on a track, I couldn't call it between a pace and a tolt, hard to say.

Hestar 142 unquestionably a pace

Gæðingamót is also clearly a pace--MTBW

This borders on OR, but the photographer has a nasty tendency to mark all his pacing pictures copyrighted :P Sadly he didn't this particluar picture either pace or tölt (skeith would be pace).

OT: whatcha like (sadly, copyrighted)

Unusable due to copyright, possible, but on the edge of a pace to boot. --MTBW

I actually meant the colour. You rarely see a skin so clearly rosy-greyish. I find it fascinating, it's so light someone might take it for a non-shimmery classic champagne or something. Never think I'm suggesting it though. Pitke (talk) 20:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes people will agree to change their copyright, I never thought about the champagne angle...I see your point! Montanabw^(talk) 21:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OT 2: could this be used to illustrate rollkur somehow? It doesn't probably count as a "book example", but...? Pitke (talk) 08:09, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not deliberate Rolkur, but unquestionably is an overflexed horse. Good for an example of overflexing or behind the bit. I question if it would be Rollkur, as Rollkur is a more deliberate thing...here the horse just looks like it's being a pain in the butt and avoiding the rider. Montanabw^(talk) 19:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that the article is about ambling, and as such needs to have a real unambiguous example. The toe touch breakover just as the other foot lands is tricky to figure out in a still shot if the foot is actually on the ground of if there is a moment of suspension.The current photo of the Icelandic is identified as a tolt, and the horse is, at least, not in a racing frame. I really dislike all the racing shots because the ambling gaits are not generally racing gaits, save for limited circumstances. The main problem with the photo is simply its low resolution, but I see that as less of a problem than something with worse form. The position of the animal is akin to that of horses performing the rack, which is basically the same gait footfall sequence. I wish there was a shot of a Saddlebred or a better Tennessee Walker shot or something, because the gaited horse thing is such a big deal in the USA. This link is a copyrighted drawing, but it's what I'd love to find. Here's another example of ambling horses. Be nice to see something with natural action, no weird farrier work... Montanabw^(talk) 19:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A soft walk-paced tölt, could be flipped. Better? This one's not the desired angle is it... And the people in the States really should put some effort into taking good pictures of their beloved gaited horses, nearly all we get at Commons are practically unusable for their screaming backgrounds, and often also bad lighting :P Finding a relaxed tölt is not that easy as Icelandic people appreciate a brisk, energetic tölt compared to the more relaxed, rolling style apparently favoured in other, lighter gaited horses (I'd assume?) - so to find a slower tölt you'd actually need to find someone not that into Icelandic gaited riding, and that takes away from the quality of the tölts available... Pitke (talk) 20:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Adding the Standardbred

I've become a bit wary of Wikipedia edit wars lately so I'm going to put this in as a suggestion and not just brashly edit it in - but it's widely acknowledged that the Standardbred, and especially the American branches of the genes, are good racking horses. The European branches seem to have less of it but I recently bought a half-American STB (by Express Ride) who started racking/step pacing after zero training so I became really interested and started doing research. The numbers of racking / stepping pace STBs and STB racker enthusiasts are great indeed and the genetics are undeniable. Doesn't this warrant an insertion of the STB in the list of ambling horse breeds? :-) Nimloth250 (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)Nimloth250[reply]

Glad you are taking it to discussion because it's a good discussion to have. But for starters, let's look at and discuss what is a "gaited" or "ambling" breed. The breeds discussed are those deliberately bred for one of the various 4-beat ambling gaits. The Standardbred was not bred specifically to be an ambling breed, it was bred for speed at the pace or trot. It is, of course, an American-originated breed, and I don't doubt that there are some ambling genetics there -- there are gaited Morgans, some may be in the Standardbred gene pool (I don't know this, I'm guessing), plus the extinct Narragansett Pacer, a probable ambling breed, did play a known role in the Standardbred. But my concern is creating an endless laundry list of "breeds with some gaited individuals." Basically, many breeds may have representatives that are gaited. Just as an example I once owned an Arabian that was perfectly able to do a lateral four-beat gait, and the well-known Arabian stallion Raseyn was even trained to perform five-gaited, but that doesn't make the Arabian a "gaited" breed. Likewise, some Morgans are gaited and that doesn't make them a gaited breed, either. I've even heard tales of gaited Quarter Horses and Mustangs (Mustangs don't surprise me, with descent from Spanish jennet types). My concern is if the breed's standard indicates they were bred to be gaited -- which may include competition where they are judged on the quality of those gaits -- or just coincidentally happen to be gaited. So perhaps that discussion needs to precede a discussion of whether to add more breeds. Maybe also, note Gaited horse. Montanabw^(talk) 21:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your response! I agree that it's not a horse that's been developed to rack, but the racking genes are very prevalent, especially in the American branches. The racking movement in the US is really large by now and there are stud farms dedicated to breeding speed rackers - see for instance http://www.speedrackinghorses.net/index.htm and http://www.rebelpridefarm.com/index.html which I found after a quick Google search - but I find that the ignorance toward the racking genes is greater than expected. I'm about to start up a racking movement in my own home country (Norway). I wasn't planning on pulling this argument but seeing that there actually are stud farms turning out specifically gaited STBs shouldn't that fulfill the criterion you cited above? I do agree that the breed has not been specifically developed for the purpose, but the use is certainly becoming very prevalent in the non-racing world. And I think it must be said that the "breed with some gaited individuals" is much more prevalent than just a few individuals! In either case I'll respect your opinion but I do feel that the breed deserves a mention. Nimloth250 (talk) 08:06, 24 March 2012 (UTC)Nimloth250[reply]

I truly dread the "laundry list" problem. I am serious; I can name of half the breeds in America that could wind up here (Standardbreds, American Saddlebreds, Tennessee Walkers, and Morgans all have "Thoroughbred plus local ambling horses" roots, much cross-fertilization there, and one source of rootstock for the Quarter Horse also comes from the "Virginia Quarter-Miler," another related mix), and there are big "didn't you know our breed was gaited too?" factions in most of them. In the USA, gaited horses are "hot" and everyone and their dog is trying to make "new" gaited breeds and claim older breeds are gaited for sales purposes. It may be different in Europe, but over here, they're both trendy and common. The two commercial sites you show indicate that there clearly is a gaited movement there, but I think the info is better placed in the Standardbred article than here. At the moment, the gaited Standardbred thing isn't all that big, though I suspect that the rescue/rehoming of old racehorses may see it increase (pacers probably all gait when they slow down, actually, as the "amble" is basically just a pace broken down into four beats, not two, kind of like the Icelandics' tolt and flying pace, I suspect). Maybe in a few more years, things will have grown to the point that the question can be reconsidered. Montanabw^(talk) 20:40, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your opinion in this! The ambling already has a short mention on the STB article, I hope you don't mind if I expand it a little bit. You're correct in that it's a four-beat pace gait, identical to the tölt in footfalls. Thanks very much for the discussion! Nimloth250 (talk) 08:32, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Nimloth250[reply]

I see no problem mentioning it in the Standardbred article. It is wisest to have some good source material that isn't from a commercial breeding farm, but it's a real point of interest to those interested in the breed, I think. Montanabw^(talk) 21:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

fox trot.

In actuality the diagonal front landing before the diagonal back is considered a fault in the gait. Though this is sometimes seen, the correct version of the gait is when the diagonal back lands a split second BEFORE the diagonal front. This creates a gentle up and down rocking motion in the front of the saddle while the back remain steady...thus the saddle rocks up and down NOT forward and back.

Now IF the front is first and the front foot catches in uneven ground...then the result is that the back foot is not yet in place and the horse can stumble to the ground. BUT if the back foot is already placed then the horse is far less likely to stumble to the ground. This is what gives the fox trot its sure footedness in uneven ground that the fox trotter is famous for.....and is why THEY are the preferred horse on rugged trails.

Now with all that said....I will concede that there are two distinct lines of fox trotters and two distinct types of fox trots. One is the performance lines. These do tend to fox trot in the 'new' method described in your article. But the original fox trotters executed the fox trot in the manner I mentioned and this is still the fox trot that is seen in the versatility lines of fox trotters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.121.253.159 (talk) 01:16, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide us a written source for this? We'd be glad to explain both versions if we can verify the information per WP:V policy. Montanabw^(talk) 15:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I will try and find written print on the subject. Unfortunately I joined the registry after the changes were made. I may be able to take a video of the versatility fox trot or may be able to contact Sally Scott (owner of the versatility horse named Thrill a Minute) to explain the difference. BTW I forgot to sign earlier. Jeffrey L. Sadler — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.186.66 (talk) 23:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:V and WP:RS to see what we need; we need things that are, for example, published as a magazine article, or a rule book description,or something on a breed registry site. Montanabw^(talk) 00:36, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure where to find a copy of the old rulebook. It was changed well before the internet, but a description may still be in the versatility rules. I will look, if not Sally may be able to tell me where to find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.186.66 (talk) 02:16, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Old rulebooks can be fascinating. I recenltly found a rulebook from the old AHSA (now USEF) from the 70s in an old box. Interesting what has and has not changed. Shoeing stuff can be particularly fascinating. Montanabw^(talk) 04:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

Potential additional sources:

Ongoing cleanup

A few questions/comments, posting here for additional discussion/source finding:

Faroe pony suggests that Susan Harris's Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement may have something covering breeds besides the Icelandic that tolt, perhaps on pages 50-55? Can this be used to source or rewrite as necessary the last paragraph of the Tolt section? User:Montanabw, I think I've seen you adding stuff from this source before?
Deb Bennett needs page numbers. Again, Montana, I think this is yours?
~~I can't find anything on horses with the stepping pace being specially selected for use transporting wounded soldiers off battlefields. Anyone have this in their sources, or should we remove it?~~
Ref #13 (Hartman, Karen) needs to be removed, it's un-RS. I already replaced a couple instances, so now the only thing left is the two places where she is used to compare the smoothness of various types of ambling. Anyone have this in their sources?

Other than the above, the Rack section needs to be sourced and the ~~lead expanded~~ and I think the article will be in quite good shape. I'm planning to work on those two things today or early next week. After that, GAN? Pinging in User:Montanabw, User:Ealdgyth (if interested) for comments. Dana boomer (talk) 17:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can't remember if I own Harris' book on gaits or not, I'll go dig, if I've used it, I probable own it.... I'll do pages on Bennett now, I'm annoyed that she's apparently pulled the Google Books version (I'm rather annoyed at Bennett in general at the moment, for other reasons but this is symptomatic of her attitude these days). Meh. I'll look about for other things. Montanabw^(talk) 22:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Found most of the Bennett stuff, added more, but still can't source two things it's very frustrating that the google books version is gone because the index of that book totally sucks and it's tough to find all the material absent a word search feature. She's also been proven (again) from more recent DNA studies to be full of it in a couple of areas (notably her assessment of cantering ability of gaited horses). I pitched what was left of the Hartman material, it's mostly just "my gaited breed is better than your gaited breed" snark. Absent better sources, I think the article is not going to suffer from the loss. Still digging on the stepping pace, my guess is gaited horses generally in the Civil War had their place... Montanabw^(talk) 01:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Human Ambling?

Japanese postmen (hikyaku) in the Edo Period ran in "namba" style with their right hand and right leg, left hand and left leg moving forward at the same time similar to the forefoot rear foot movements of horses ambling, for similar reasons to ambling -- long distance travel over poor roads. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.251.155.28 (talk) 11:46, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Usefulness for mounted archers ?

I am under the impression that ambling was useful not only for the comfort it provided for long trips but also for the stability it offered for mounted archers, during various historical periods. Am I wrong ? --Japarthur (talk) 08:10, 27 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]