Talk:Antonio Arnaiz-Villena

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ARNAIZ-VILLENA INDEMNIFICATION SENTENCE UPDATE[edit]

on the macedonians[edit]

Abstract HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.2.27 (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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POV interpretations of primary source material per WP:SCIRS[edit]

In the "Greeks and Sub-Saharans" section, there is an entire paragraph dedicated to various claims about genetics that don't appear to be related to anything Arnaiz-Villena has ever published. Quoting this paragraph here:


In a sample of 125 Greeks from Thessaloniki and Sarakatsani, 2 Asian-specific mtDNA sequences (M and D) were detected (1.6%). No sub-Saharan African genes were observed in this population, therefore, non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Greece is very low, as elsewhere in Europe.[26] Additionally, in a sample of 366 Greeks from thirteen locations in continental Greece, Crete, Lesvos and Chios, a single African haplogroup A Y Chromosome was found (0.3%). This marks the only instance to date of sub-Saharan DNA being discovered in Greece. In another sample of 42 Greeks, one sequence of the Siberian Tat-C haplogroup turned up, while other studies with larger sample populations have failed to detect this paternal marker in the Greek gene pool[27][28] and while its frequencies are actually much higher in Scandinavian and Slavic populations.[29][30] Also, a paper has detected clades of haplogroups J and E3b that were likely not part of pre-historic migrations into Europe, but rather spread by later historical movements. Greeks possess none of the lineages denoting North African ancestry within the last 5000 years and have only 2% (3/148) of the marker J-M267, which may reflect more recent Middle Eastern admixture.[31]


The material referenced here is primary source, which fails WP:SCIRS. Nowhere in the article does it state how this material is relevant to Arnaiz-Villena; as he does not seem to have made any references to East Asian, Siberian, or Middle Eastern admixture in Greeks and the supposed haplogroups associated with that.


Reference [26]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288566

  • Authors do not use the term "Caucasoid" anywhere in their article
  • Several of the samples used in this reference were collected by the authors
  • Authors do not mention Arnaiz-Villena or his research
  • Claim in wiki using this reference has no relevance to Arnaiz-Villena's research on Greeks; it's seemingly random

Reference [27]: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1469-1809.2000.6450395.x

  • Authors do not explicity state the absence of this haplogroup in any population; the interpretation in the Wiki is non-textual
  • Authors collected all 1801 samples analyzed in their study
  • Study makes no mention of Arnaiz-Villena, nothing indicates that this study had anything to do with correcting his research
  • Claim in Wiki about Asians is absolutely irrelevant to the research of Arnaiz-Villena on Greeks

Reference [28]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11549659_Armenian_Y_chromosome_haplotypes_reveal_strong_regional_structure_within_a_single_ethno-national_group

  • Authors collected all 734 samples used in the study
  • Authors do not explicity state the lack of any one genetic marker in Greeks; this interpretation in the Wiki is non-textual
  • Authors do not mention Arnaiz-Villena or his work, and the study has no relevance to it.

Reference [29]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287529/

  • Authors collected all samples in their dataset
  • Authors do not explicity state higher presence of haplogroup in Scandinavians or Slavs; wiki interpretation is non-textual
  • Authors do not mention Arnaiz-Villena in study
  • Study has absolutely nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's research
  • Wiki passage about Scandinavians, Slavs and Asians has absolutely nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's research on Greeks

Reference [30]: https://web.archive.org/web/20090305052003/http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

  • Authors collected all 890 samples used in study
  • Authors do not higher state presence of haplogroup in Scandinavians or Slavs; wiki interpretation is non-textual
  • Authors do not mention Arnaiz-Villena in study
  • Study has absolutely nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's research
  • Wiki passage about Scandinavians, Slavs and Asians has absolutely nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's research on Greeks

Reference [31]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/

  • Authors collected all samples used in study
  • Study does not mention Arnaiz-Villena or his research, do not even aim to address it
  • Study concerns North African and Middle Eastern haplogroups; not the Sub-Saharan theory of Arnaiz-Villena
  • Wiki claim uaing reference appears to be totally random; makes no statements relevant to Arnaiz-Villena and his research

So, as you can see, this paragraph is much ado about nothing. It's out of congruence with WP:SCIRS, and fails WP:OR. Only information that directly refutes Arnaiz-Villena should be in this article; we can't do our own research to refute him (or claims he never made, like East Asian ancestry in Greeks). Especially using graphical interpretations from primary research. Hunan201p (talk) 19:46, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That whole paragraph is a continuation of the paragraph above it, part of the "Other authors contradict Arnaiz-Villena's results". Also, the sources are perfectly reliable. Macedonian (talk) 11:48, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mac, that is not an explanation, and not accurate at all.
This paragraph is not a continuation of the paragraph preceding it. It's a random babbling about East Asian and Middle Eastern admixture in Greeks and other Europeans, which has nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's theory that Greeks originate in Sub-Saharan Africa.
And these are not "perfectly reliable" sources. They're actually quite imperfect, primary genetic research being used to generate content about human ancestry. That's not advised at WP:SCIRS:
"However, primary sources describing genetic or genomic research into human ancestry, ancient populations, ethnicity, race, and the like, should not be used to generate content about those subjects, which are controversial. High quality secondary sources as described above should be used instead. Genetic studies of human anatomy or phenotypes like intelligence should be sourced per WP:MEDRS."
The more appropriate sources to use in this context would be secondary sources, and even then, they would need to explicitly support the passage in the Wiki, and have some kind of relevance to anything Arnaiz-Villena has ever said. The passage in the Wiki does not, and is purely original research. None of this has anything to do with Arnaiz-Villena's theory that Greeks are from Sub-Saharan Africa. Hunan201p (talk) 12:58, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point. But then again, the studies in that paragraph point out the absence of the claimed Greek-Sub-Saharan relation made by Arnaiz-Villena. Therefore they are vital for the whole "Greeks and Sub-Saharans" section, that's why they have been there for more than 10 years. Macedonian (talk) 18:32, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, they explicitly show that AAV's work is contradicted by the literature. Khirurg (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with your point Macedonian. Such information, even though not explicitly addressed to Arnaiz-Villena, does relate to his field of research and allows the reader to better assess his work's credibility. There is also a relevant paper from 2017 that relates and is absent from the article, namely "Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (2017)" that also happens to make reference to Black Athena that Arnaiz-Villena supports. Specifically we read, Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions.. The 22 reference pertaining to the other proposed migrations of the quote is the following, Bernal M. Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785–1985. Vol. 1. Rutgers University Press; 1987.. Are you guys ok with the addition of it in the article? Demetrios1993 (talk) 12:01, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, since it is relevant. Macedonian (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The content I removed has nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's theories about sub-saharan Africans. If you want to add content showing that his theory about a Greek Sub-Saharan African origin is bullshit, great. That's a good idea. But this paragraph I removed talks about East Asians, Siberians, Northern Europeans and middle easterners. That has nothing to do with Arnaiz-Villena's theory, or any theory he ever pushed. It's literally just a bunch of off-topic nonsense. Hunan201p (talk) 18:08, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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