Talk:Arnold Fishkind

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Requested Move

The AllMusic web page referred to at the end of this article seems to have led to the biggest problem with it: the subjects real name is Arnold Fishkind -- with a "d". He was a supporting artist and record jackets from the distant past seem to have messed up the spelling. I would like to remedy this situation. I'm going to let this change (and some additional information) ferment here and troll for objections before I actually attempt any edits.

Here are some facts and sources.

1. Chubby Jackson refers to Arnold Fishkind at News -- October 1, 2003: CHUBBY JACKSON 1918 – 2003 (apparently quoting Jackson) "I'm proud that I can openly say that I was influenced by two bassists at the time that I entered the fray with my bass that I called "Bessie." I bought it for $3.00 from my mentor Arnold Fishkind who at that time was playing with the swingin' Bunny Berigan Big Band. ...” That ties Fishkind, not "Fishkin" to the musician in question.

2. On a jazzpages.com forum, Birthdays in July "Arnold Fishkin" is shown as born ona July 20, and 84 years old in 2003. Arnold Fishkind was born 20 Jul 1919 and would have been 84 in 2004. Fishkind's dates given on Social Security Death Index.

3. Jazz on Record: The First Sixty Years, by Scott Yanow (Backbeat Books, 2003) p.267 “... At Click 1948 ... which contains most of the available airchecks of the otherwise lost BG group. The music is often fascinating and one can contrast the sounds of Goodman and Hasselgard, who are joined by Gray, Teddy Wilson, guitarist Billy Bauer, bassist Arnold Fishkind, and drummer Mel Zelnick.”

4. ... similarly in Bebop, by Scott Yanow (Backbeat Books, 2000), p.202

5. The Rough Guide to Jazz, by Ian Carr, Digby Fairweather, Brian Priestley, Charles Alexander (Rough Guides, 1004), p. 344, names Arnold Fishkind as a member of the Benny Goodman sextet.

6. Wikipedia's own entry on “Moonlight in Vermont” credits Arnold Fishkind.

7. The Big Band Almanac, by Leo Walker (Da Capo Press, 1989), p. 4, entry on Van Alexander shows Arnold Fishkind as a band member.

8. American Big Bands, by William F. Lee (Hal Leonard Corporation, 2005), p.218, shows Arnold Fishkind as a member of the Van Alexander band.

9. On jazzprofessional.com “Talking to Les Tomkins in 1983”, Shorty Rogers says, “I was with the next edition of Woody’s band—the “Four Brothers” band. Between the two bands, this covered, I’d say, 1945 through to 1950. In the middle of that period I was in California doing nothing, and I spent some time with a real nice group that Butch Stone had. Stan Getz was on the group; the bass player was Arnold Fishkind, who was with Lennie Tristano later.” This associates Arnold Fishkind with Tristano, who the non-existing Fishkin is said to have played for.

10. Swing, Swing, Swing: The Life and Times of Benny Goodman, by Ross Firestone (W.W. Norton and Company, 1994) references Arnold FishkinD @ page 344 “... the bassist Arnold Fishkind, who had worked with Bunny Berigan and Jack Teagarden ...” This associates Arnold Fishkind with Bunny Berigan, who the non-existent Arnold Fishkin is said to have played for.

11. Stan Hasselgard is quoted from an account originally appearing in the jazz magazine OJ: "The job with Goodman in Philadelphia was nice, despite many exhausting broadcasts that you'll never get paid for. When BG is inspired, he can really play and that happend often. I hade to hide, filled with sudden complexes, behind my music stand. Teddy Wilson is excellent as usual but Wardell Gray takes the prize –absolutely the finest tenor player in the States. The bass player Arnold Fishkind was sacked the first night (and you're lucky as long you can stay aboard) and was replaced by Clyde Lombardi. We'll start in White Plains on the 18th and I think Benny has a radio show planned. ...”

12. In July 2008 an article appeared in Jazzwise Magazine about bassist Peter Ind, who was a “deciple” of pianist Lennie Tristano. In the article he notes that he played with Tristano one night when “the usual bassist” in the quintet, Arnold FishkinD, for some reason couldn't appear. Again, Arnold Fishkind is the musician who played with Tristano.

13. Niels Lyngberg wrote an obituary for Arnold Fishkin. “I just got the news that bassist Arnold Fishkin (sometimes spelled Fishkind) passed away in Californina on September 8. He was born in Bayonne, NJ, on July 20, 1919 and worked with the bands of Bunny Berigan, Jack Teagarden, Les Brown, Jerry Wald and Charlie Barnet before becoming one of the most in-demand bassist in New York. He is on several classic recordings from the late 1940s and early 1950s with Lennie Tristano and Lee Konitz. He was also in the Benny Goodman septet of 1948. In the 1950s he played in the staff orchestras at NBC and CBS, still active as a jazz musician on the side, and later on was a free lance bassist. He had been living in southern California for more than 40 years." But again, these are Arnold Fishkind's dates. We are reading about the same person. Arnold Fishkind lived in Van Nuys and later in the Palm Springs area.

Please voice your objections to my proposal to rename the article to Arnold Fishkind with a redirect or whatever for the non-existent Arnold Fishkin.

I have a photograph of Arnold Fishkind, but I am verifying the facts about it's authenticity and the absence of any intellectual property rights issues. Tkotc (talk) 02:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Arnold Fishkind" redirects here now, FWIW. I wrote this article based on Allmusic...does he have an entry in any of the major encyclopedias? (Grove Jazz, Feather?) I'd prefer to go with whatever they use. No strong opinions, though. Chubbles (talk) 14:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're just the fellow I had hoped would respond.

I don't know how to access either of the sources you mentioned. Nevertheless, please consider the following.

The thrust of Chadbourne's biography on Allmusic is that Fishkin and Fishkind were the same man. This is pretty clear because the two names played for the same bands during the same time frame. The problem was how to decide what name to file it under. Intellectually Chadbourne more or less threw a dart, and pinned the tail on Fishkin instead of Fishkind. I don't intend to be unduly critical of Chadbourne's biography, which is well written and amusing to boot, but there was probably no way for him to resolve this point when he wrote it. (And if you count mentions, discographies and search engines turn up "Arnold Fishkin" more often than they do Arnold Fishkind. Under such circumstances, if I had been the one throwing the dart, I would have thrown it at "Fishin" too.) Now with more publications and the ability to find them through various search engines, the tools are there to find the evidence and answer the question.

The discographies are not incorrect in that they reflect what publishers put on their records and albums, but the publishers were sloppy and got it wrong. Remember, Arnold Fishkind was a supporting musician, so it wasn't really critical to get his name right. This is the very problem I would like to correct (as well as expanding a bit on Arnold Fishkind). But the question of Arnold Fishkind's identity cannot be satisfactorily resolved on the basis of discographies, or material based on discographies, if the problem is simply sloppy misidentification on the labels/album covers to begin with. The discographies correctly report what they find. What they found was wrong.

Consider:

If you look, at the available documentation, the name "Arnold Fishkin" only appears in connection with or supported by discographies; but Arnold Fishkind is the subject of several first person stories.

The bands in which "Arnold Fishkin" is cited as having played with are the same bands for which Arnold Fishkind has documented credits. (Indeed, even Chadbourne/Allmusic concedes the names are one and the same person.)

The only dates and places given on the web for "Arnold Fishkin" are in fact the dates (e.g. birth/death) and places (born/grown up/lived) for which we can actually document Arnold Fishkind.

So really the question boils down to what is the correct spelling for the one person we (and Allmusic) are talking about.

As for non-record-jacket-based information, here are some references I have so far. (I'm sorry that some of these were mentioned in my first post, but I wanted to try to reference the materials properly this time.)

Yanow, Scott (2000). Bebop: The Best Musicians and Recordings. Backbeat Books. p. 391. ISBN 9780879306083. Mentions Arnold Fishkind as a member of the Benny Goodman septet (at p.202). Benny Goodman is a major band that should ultimately be mentioned in this article.
Wikipedia's own entry on Moonlight in Vermont (album) credits Arnold Fishkind.
“Master in the Making”, by Barry Ulanov (Metronome, August 1949), p.33, (an article about Lenny Tristano), refers to Arnold Fishkin in connection with Chubby Jackson, but we know from Jackson's own words, above, that Jackson knew the name was Fishkind (and they had indeed been boyhood buddies). There are numerous disks showing Tristano and Arnold Fishkind playing together. See, e.g., Jazzwize Magazine article cited above.
Jazz for Jesus Musician Tony Monaco said, "So along came Arnold, (his Jewish name was Aaron) Fishkind -- bringing with him a zombie looking friend, Bob Corwin. Arnold was a jazz bass player who had played with famous jazz bands. His son Todd was a close friend and co-songwriter on some songs with Keith and Melody Green. ..." Another first-hand knowledge fact. See also, Social Security Death Index, where he is identified as Arnold A. Fishkind.
Shim, Eunmi (2007). Lenny Tristano. University of Michigan Press. p. 316. ISBN 9780472113460. On p. 27 the author relates that Jackson said that he contacted "Arnold Fishkin" about Tristano. (But again, see the direct quote by Jackson referring to Fishkind.) But then later the author also identifies him as Arnold Fishkind at p. 29, suggesting sloppy editing on the part of UMI.
Dupuis, Robert (1993). Bunny Berigan: Elusive Legend of Jazz. LSU Press. p. 368. ISBN 9780807130681. Has a photograph of Arnold Fishkind hand identified and name correctly spelled (at p. 94). And establishes Arnold Fishkind as having played with Berigan.
Priestley, Brian (2007). Chasin' the Bird: The Life and Legacy of Charlie Parker. Oxford University Press US. p. 242. ISBN 9780195327090. Mentions Arnold Fishkind at p. 150 in discography.
Yanow, Scott (2003). Jazz on Record: The First Sixty Years. Backbeat Books. p. 858. ISBN 9780879307554. Names Arnold Fishkind as a musician in connection with "At Click 1948" CD with Stan Hasselgard (at p. 267).
Yanow, Scott (2000). Swing: The Best Musicians and Recordings. Backbeat Books. p. 514. ISBN 9780879306007. In the entry for Peanuts Hucko, the author suggests looking for the LP “With His Pied Piper Quintet”, in which the bassist was Arnold Fishkind (at p. 363).
Carr, Ian (2004). The Rough Guide to Jazz: the essential companion to artists and albums. Rough Guides. p. 927. ISBN 9781843532569. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Notes Arnold Fishkind as a member of the Benny Goodman Septet (along with Stan Hasselgard) (at p. 344).
Walker, Leo (1989). The Big Band Almanac. Da Capo Press. p. 466. ISBN 9780306803451. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Notes Arnold Fishkind as one of the sidemen of the Van Alexander band (at p. 4).
Dahl, Linda (2001). Morning Glory: A Biography of Mary Lou Williams. University of California Press. p. 471. ISBN 9780520228726. Repeats the story of Benny Goodman's replacement of Arnold Fishkind by Lombardi that was told by Hasselgard, supra, (at p. 196).
Koch, Lawrence O. (1988). Yardbird Suite: A Compendium of the Music and Life of Charlie Parker. University of Wisconsin Press. p. 336. ISBN 9780879722609.Notes Arnold Fishkind recording with Charlie Parker in 1947 (at p. 89).
Lee, William F. (2005). American Big Bands. Hal Leonard Corporation. p. 407. ISBN 9780634080548. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Arnold Fishkind's work in Van Alexander band noted, at p. 218
Chilton, John (2004). Who's who of British Jazz. Continuum International Publishing Group. ISBN 9780826472342. Notes that Peter Blannin studied with Arnold Fishkind in New York in 1951, at p. 38
Bogdanov, Vladimir (2002). All Music Guide to Jazz: The Definitive Guide to Jazz Music. Backbeat Books. p. 1472. ISBN 9780879307172. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Notes Arnold Fishkind playing with Konitz, at p. 726.

I hope you will feel convinced by the foregoing, but if not, you're the guy I want to make happy. Tell me what else you would like to see. Thank you very much for commenting and for your guidance.

Where Can This Page Go?

Here are some things I know about Arnold Fishkind (from "No More Blues", a 16 page booklet by Arnold Fishkind, unpublished as far as I know, undated), but they need to be documented.

His parents were refugees from Czarist Russia.
He got a violin at age 7.
He began playing with Bunny Berigan at 16.
Before WWII he played with Jack Teagarden and Les Brown. The names are in the article. The undefined part is the chronology.
He served in the US Army (3 years, 3 months, 28 days) and got out in March 1946. Just a chronological item.
He worked for Lennie Tristano for the first time in the summer of 1946.
He met his wife, Donnye' in August 1946.
He went to California in the fall of 1946 and played with Charlie Barnet.
His idol was bassist Jimmy Blanton, who died at 22 (July 7 according to Arnold, 1942, of TB). Arnold said, "Blanton was the innovator on string bass. His genius transformed the instrument from a cumbersome attitude to that more like a horn, using harmonic and melodic phrases that were unheard of at that time."
He got his Local #47 Union Card in 1946, having established a six-month residence in California.
He returned to the New York area to rejoin Lenny Tristano, who was forming a new sextet, around Thanksgiving 1947. (Tristano, Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Billie Bauer, and Arnold Fishkind.)
In 1948 he moved to Levittown, Long Island, buying a house.
At this time he also played with the Bennie Goodman Sextet.
He worked a staff job at ABC for 15 years.
He did live TV and radio, and Muzak.
In 1961 he did the Andy Williams Show on TV for ABC.
Did Broadway Road Co. shows at The Wedgwood, a dinner-theater club in Glen Cove, Long Island.
After he moved to Woodland Hills, California (due to scarce work in NYC, Rock music having displaced Jazz), he played with The Dean Martin Show, The Bob Hope Show, and some subs on the Tonight and the Merv Griffin shows.
He did tours with the Les Brown band, and with Lena Horne.
In 1976 (May 5) he was converted to Christianity in sessions with his son, Todd, and Keith Green.

So if anyone can help, these are facts that need some independent verification/documentation. Tkotc (talk) 00:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dug around, found some good references (esp the Feather & Gitler item listed as a general reference) and finished the guts of the article. I have seen a photo of Fishkind and Jackson at Jackson's birthday, and some other photos of Fishkind with various musicians, but I am waiting for Fishkind's son to contribute them to wikimedia. Tkotc (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Levittown Tribune article has a photograph of Fishkind, and refers to an article about Fishkind by Peter Ulanov in Metronome, which I am trying to track down.
Fishkind was the son of Leopold and Rose Fishkind and had sisters Esther and Sallie. Leopold and Rose came from Minsk, Russia. Their name was not "Fishkind", but while they were waiting for a place in line to immigrate, and evidently they didn't have a place, someone called out that it was the turn for a family named "Fishkind". No one responded. So Leopold said, in effect, "Let's go!" They responded and became the Fishkinds. Nobody seems to know at this point what their original name was. Now, to document it ... Tkotc (talk) 19:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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