Talk:Aztec sun stone

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2018 and 15 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: NickHelfand.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"Alternate meaning" removed

Have removed the supposed 'alternate meaning' paras which were offered in this recent edit, that had been (rightly) tagged as speculation. No explicit source given, indeed it actually stated that it was "unpublished", therefore not eligible for mention here under WP:NOR, WP:SYN and WP:V at the least. --cjllw ʘ TALK 04:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 05:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Aztec sun stone → Aztec calendar stone — Inaccurate though it may be, "calendar stone" still seems to be the most common name. —Ptcamn (talk) 05:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support MarritzN (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2009 (UTC) The plaque at the museum where the stone is housed specifically says that the disputed stone isn't a calendar, but has something to do with gladiatorial combat (I can't remember the exact phrase, and the INAH museum website is very wonky). The Mexican museum refers to it as the Sun Stone, so that's what it should be called. Wikipedia oughtn't go with an incorrect name just because someone claims that the incorrect name is the most well-known.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not a Calendar

The article states that this monument "is a calendar". However, this is a monument with some of the calendaring symbols. I just read it in the American Museum of Natural History, that the sun stone is usually considered "a calendar" but is not by any means a calendar. It is only a representation that the Sun was the most important thing to the aztecs and how many things circled around it. I would like to edit the page to remove the fact that is a calendar and instead say that is usually 'confused' as a calendar, but is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nelfer (talk • contribs) 16:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I would concur in renaming the article to Aztec Sun Stone or some such. The Anthropology Museum in Mexico City itself states that the stone is not a calendar, and was in fact a gladiatorial ceremony stone of some kind. It's called the Sun Stone in Mexico, so that's what the article should be called.MarritzN (talk) 21:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Again not a calendar

I see this was brought up in 2009 and nothing was done about it, so I felt this warranted a new section.

Again, the stone is not a calendar and in fact both in Mexico and modern academic discourse the stone is properly called the Sun Stone. The article should really be renamed. It was a gladiatorial sacrifice stone. It depicts the sun and days of the week as depictions of Aztec cosmology but is not tied to their astrological calculations and is in fact useless for dating of any kind. This article is filled with outdated misinformation and I suspect its remained this way because of stubborn editors that insist on keeping up the outdated "popular" view that has been proven false by modern anthropologists and archeologists.173.56.79.75 (talk) 02:44, 19 October 2013 (UTC) [the aztec sun calenders'symbols could be realated to the myans holy text such as the symbol of the jaguar in the myans holytext there was a cave that was underground and you or so called the soul has to go through chambers one was cold and darkness one was blood and one was jaguar. I think that the water on the Aztecs sun calender is actualy blood and even though the aztecs and myas fought allot maybe they fought about religion and whos was closser to being correct [ anaamoos ] 1/6/18]

tle usually goes by the most common name in English, not always what is most correct... AnonMoos (talk) 03:18, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Not sure what "week" means in this context -- there were 13-day periods and 20-day periods, but I never heard of a pre-Columbian Mesoamerican 7-day period... AnonMoos (talk) 03:34, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Time

How long did it take for the Aztecs to carve the stone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.58.74.10 (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Page Peer Review

Overall, this is a very solid article.

A few comments:

- When editing an article with this much pre-existing content, a lot of the work is going to come from evaluating existing claims and their citations. It seems that you've done a bit of this, which is great. - The use of photos in this article is great. There is a nice balance of historical and modern day photos of the calendar stone, as well as some more colorful photos such as the Mexican Amate paper craft. - I like the section on other calendar stones, but I'm not sure that such depth is needed on this page. - The physical description section is good but the "central disk" sub header could likely be improved.

Nice work!

NickHelfand (talk) 01:10, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect title

I had a look at the previous discussions of the title, and while 'calendar stone' might be what the stone is most commonly, and incorrectly called, this should not be the Wiki title since it is incorrect. Encyclopedias are not about re-iterating common misconceptions, rather they are about correcting them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.173.250.243 (talk) 00:11, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 9 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 16:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

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Aztec calendar stone → Aztec sun stone – This article should never have been moved to the current title 'Aztec calendar stone', this has not been the accepted name of the stone for many years at this point, its generally accepted name is 'Aztec sun stone', this is what it's called by those who study the field, as well as its name in the museum which houses it in Mexico. Although it is still fairly common to refer to the stone incorrectly as a calendar, the name 'Aztec calendar stone' is not common, most people would not know what the title is. Even if it were the most common title, an encyclopedia's job is to present correct information, not to reinforce incorrect misconceptions. For example, the most common name for the UK is 'England' or sometimes 'Britain', both of these names are incorrect, therefore the Wikipedia article is titled 'United Kingdom', the more correct, but less common title. Furthermore, the previous discussion on this topic only had one detailed comment, one which was opposed to the move, despite bizarrely being marked 'support', this was perhaps due to an error by the person making the comment. There has since been two commenters on this page disagreeing with the title, suggesting a consensus has emerged against the move. 37.173.250.243 (talk) 00:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)--Relisted. –Ammarpad (talk) 06:46, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support I hope this doesn't seem like double-voting, I am the person who posted the original move request, however I have some further evidence to post. A google search for 'Aztec sun stone' returns more than 'Aztec calendar stone', 14.2 million vs 4.9 million. Indeed, 2 of the top 5 results for calendar return links that are titled 'Aztec sun stone' or 'sun stone', and the top linked search result is this very article. So the suggestions that calendar stone is more common does not seem to stand up to evidence.

Additionally, the major non-English language articles (the ones that I can understand, ie German, Spanish (the language most common in Mexico, where the sun stone was found and is displayed), French, Italian and Occitan) all translate to 'Sun stone'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.173.250.243 (talk) 00:41, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Comment I am not bound to this topic but I note, in a quick look at the article's references in all languages, that the subject is labeled a sun stone twice, a calendar stone five times, and both twice. It seems that calendar stone is the more popular reference. Ifnord (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

By my count, it's 4 for sun stone, 5 for calendar stone and 2 for both. Of the ones for calendar stone, one source is mentioned twice(Matos Moctezuma), one is from 1876(Chavero), when it might not yet have been discovered that it wasn't a calendar, and a third, refers to it immediately after the title as 'sun stone'(Lopez Lujan). If we count the latter as 'both' and remove the source mentioned twice, that would be 4 for sun stone, 3 for calendar stone and 3 for both. This of course ignoring the other points raised above showing that it isn't the most popular reference. - 37.165.122.39 (talk) 02:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Additionally, that editor is in the middle of an edit dispute with me, the originator of this request, so while he/she may not be 'bound to this topic', they are not completely disinterested either. This is not relevant to whether or not we should change the title, but I don't want anyone to be fooled into thinking they are a neutral observer. - 37.165.122.39 (talk) 02:47, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

• Support It really should not have been moved in the first place. As the OP has noted, results for the common name favour 'sun stone', and Spanish language sources have settled for 'Piedra del Sol' - incidentally the title used on the Spanish wikipedia. Instances of 'Piedra del Calendario' very often exist in the form 'Piedra del Sol o Calendario', giving a nod to the alternative name that had appeared historically. A quick scan shows the Spanish, French, Italian, Polish, Russian, German, Belorussian, Ukrainian, Swedish, Norwegian and Czech wikis all use the term 'sun stone' in their titles. It has now become predominant, and is used by bodies like National Geographic and its guardians, the Mexican National Museum of Anthropology, which also notes, "One of the emblematic pieces of the museum is Piedra del Sol, or Sun Stone. This stone sculpture served as a monumental sacrifice altar, misnamed Calendar, and was discovered in 1790 at the Main Square of the capital city of New Spain." Wikipedia should not be using a misnomer. As research and understanding has improved, 'Sun stone' has become both the more accurate name, as well as the WP:COMMONNAME. 129.67.116.97 (talk) 09:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I agree it shouldn't have been moved. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:28, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Coronation Stone of Motecuhzoma II, Unknown Aztec artist, c. 1503 - 1504.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:51, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ARHS 3720 Aztec Art in Mexico

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 3 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Wikiwikiwave, Jlevine13 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jlevine13 (talk) 06:18, 16 February 2023 (UTC)