Talk:B. B. Lal/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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BLP problems

@Tayi Arajakate: you must have mistaken but none of these descriptors are "reliably sourced descriptors" and Vishwajeet103 was right with the removal. The article is a WP:BLP and even if it wasn't, the content has to be correctly supported by the sources and the libelous information should be removed. The sources do not support any of these labels,[1] neither by this self-published source. I am not sure why Joshua Jonathan is eager to add such WP:BLP violation even after it has been removed by several editors.

Thank you Yoonadue Pharaoh of the Wizards for the updates. Wareon (talk) 05:45, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

B.B. Lal is historical revisionist. His reputation as an archadologist and head of the ASI is misused to present his revisionist views as reputable historical facts. For WP:NPOV, his revisionism should be mentioned as such. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Wareon, there is no indication that source is self publishing, and it explicitly isn't Amazon as you seem to claim in this edit summary (Special:Diff/1002808815)? Droogan 2013 which is published by A & C Black, a mainstream academic publisher states the following, "...the case in the archeology of Indian religions in general, especially in Hinduism ... sometimes notorious, attempts to prove the historicity of religious myths ... through archeological fieldwork (see esp. Lal, 2002b; Ray, 2004)."
Further, the two additional references I added in Special:Diff/1002802975 refer to him as "historical revisionist", all of which contradicts your assertion of them being "not supported by any sources", why did you preserve the references but remove the content? Tayi Arajakate Talk 06:25, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
"historical revisionist" should be adequately supported by the sources than our own half baked conclusions per WP:OR. Source does not mention those words. This is a self published source and the publisher is clearly noted as Amazon and does not even mention the term "negations". Overall it is unreliable. Wareon (talk) 06:32, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
[@JJ] Your own personal prejudice is irrelevant. Consider taking it outside Wikipedia. In this case you would need sufficient sourcing than your WP:OR given that archeologist in question is generally treated as eminent archaeologist by prolific scholars of the field such as Upinder Singh,[2] Tiffany Jenkins[3] and many more. Wareon (talk) 06:40, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Droogan (2012) p.67:

On occasion this has led to archaeological research being used as a weapon or tool in religious controversy and violence, often closely tied to contemporary nationalism. Hindu revisionist historians [...] revisionist historians [...] B.B. Lal

Muktar Ahmed, Ancient Pakistan is published by Foursome Group, not Amazon.
Statements like own half baked conclusions and personal prejudice are indicative of the pov-warrior stance we've seen so often here at Wikipedia. Your statement "generally treated" is your personal conclusion, that is, WP:OR. In contrast, "historical revisionist" is sourced. Per WP:NPOV, this should be mentioned.
This WP-article is being used to promote Lal's views on Indigenous Aryanism and the Adyodha disoute; it's typical that his publications on these topics are the only ones which have been elaborated on, while those are controversial publications. Think about that, when referring to WP:BLP. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:53, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Omitting a large number of words and pretending like it is a single sentence isn't conforming to WP:BLP. By misrepresenting a source you have somehow discovered and ignoring a large number of scholarly sources that treat him differently than you is indeed a violation of WP:NPOV. Wareon (talk) 07:02, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Those sources are clear; stating that we "misrepresent" is WP:TENDENTIOUS. It's not up to you to make a selection in favor of your personal views; Wikipedia presenets the relevant points of view, and this is one of them. No WP:CENSOR please. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:04, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of a "Foursome group" on the book's profile. It is a self-published unreliable source and your continued misleading detailing of this book is further reducing your credibility. Wareon (talk) 07:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
You are repeating your misleading statements; Droogan is published by AC Black; what is self-published about that? You removed diff the following statement:

His later publicastions have been noted for their historical revisionism [Droogan 2012, p.67]

edit-summary This is a BLP violation and not supported by the sources per talk page. Please explain very specifically how this statement of fact, from WP:RS, violates which aspect of WP:BLP; and how it is not suported by Droogan, who explicitly refers to Lal. Otherwise, your reverts and "arguments" are WP:TENDENTIOUS. Per WP:BLP, it says
The statement is verifiable; it balances the view of Lal a a 'reputed archaeologist'; and it is what Droogan writes, and other sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:15, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Your source say that "revisionist historians in India have used archaeological reports" and that archaeologist data "can be misinterpreted to serve nationalistic" agenda. Now if the archeological report was published by B B Lal, still he is not obliged to share responsibility. If you cannot understand this then you have a clear WP:CIR issue. Wareon (talk) 07:18, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
"Foursome group" is the publisher of the book as available within the preview. Even assuming Droogan 2012 and Ahmed 2014 to be relatively hard to access, it doesn't explain how you can possibly claim that "Source does not mention those words." regarding the references which are readily available. Directly quoting from the following.
  • Tandom, Aditi (25 January 2021). "Former Japanese PM, Indian-American scientist Kapany on this year's Padma Vibhushan list". The Tribune.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

Lal is well known as a Hindu historical revisionist and as former the director general of the ASI, was the first to excavate at the Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid site, besides carrying out excavations at the sites associated with the Mahabharata.

Indian archaeologist and Hindutva historical revisionist B. B. Lal

Tayi Arajakate Talk 07:20, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
@Vanamonde93: could you take a look here? Thanks, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:26, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I searched about the so-called "Foursome Group" and only this book came up as "publisher" on Google. It is safe to assume that the publisher is Amazon, and fails WP:RS.
And Tayi Arajakate, you are long enough to know that we must avoid using random news sources that have directly copy-pasted from Wikipedia pages. They have the habit of drawing content from Wikipedia. If not, then you are free to find a source before this 24 December 2020 version claiming him to be "revisionist" or "negationist". Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 07:39, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Sharp; I'll give you credit for that. Doesn't change a bit about Droogan, though. And why does this editor suddenly pop-up], after being dormant for eight years? Regarding this edit, edit-summary "[...] his work is recognised by his peers and regulators"; no, his work on Indigenous Aryanim has not at all been recognised by his peers. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:52, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
On what basis are you claiming that the news sources have copy-pasted from the article? The wording does not match and they can be used per WP:NEWSORG. The Tribune article further includes information which isn't present on this page, for instance Lal being the " first to excavate at the Ram Janmabhoomi".
Even if we ignore over doubt of material, Ahmed 2014 which per the preview is published by "Foursome Group", it doesn't make any of the others non-RS. Tayi Arajakate Talk 07:59, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

I've temporarily protected the page. @Ptksmr, Inderpalsingh55, and Wareon: Please participate in this discussion and reach a consensus on the disputed content before editing the article. – Joe (talk) 08:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Joe Roe: given the possibility that newspapers cite from this article, could you please remove "and Hindutva historical revisionist.[2][3][4] c.q. negationist.[5]" from the first sentence? And also "c.q. historical negationism.[5]" from "His later publicastions have been noted for their historical revisionism[2][7][8] c.q. historical negationism.[5]"; "His later publicastions have been noted for" is more neutral; "negationism" is too controversial. Thanks. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:21, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
The Minister of State for Culture (IC) and Environment, Forest & Climate Change, Dr. Mahesh Sharma releasing the book by the former DG, ASI, Prof. B.B. Lal, on the occasion of Foundation Day of National Museum, in New Delhi.
NB: notwithstanding my impression that Lal is presently most notable for his historical revisionism. The photograph in the infobox is exemplary: Lal presenting his book Archaeological Myths in Early Evolutionary History of Indian Civilization. It isn't even mentioned at Google Scholar. Ironically, it isn't mentioned in the Wiki-article either... So, what's the use of this photograph, except for name-dropping? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
I'd second this considering it's a WP:BLP, negationism is primarily sourced to Ahmed 2014 and there seems to be some distinction between his former (when he was associated with ASI) and later works.
Although, I oppose the notion of considering newspapers to be unreliable just on a handwavy assertion that they copy from Wikipedia, publications need to be assessed on a case by case basis. Tayi Arajakate Talk 08:42, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Okay. With all the conflicting edits it was hard to figure out which parts were under dispute, but this seems uncontroversial. – Joe (talk) 12:31, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 12:41, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
JJ, not sure which parts of this you want me to comment on. The Foursome Group book I would not consider reliable. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:55, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: the repeated removal of sourced info (sourced by Droogan). Joe Roe already intervened, by fully protecting the page.

@Wareon: as was to be expected, your "prolific scholars," do not all support your stance. Tiffany Jenkins, which is actually Brian Hole, A Many-Cornered Thing: The Role of Heritage in Indian Nation-Building, is a critical treatment of Hindutva nationalism. Hole is very critical of Lal:

[...] various actors with more narrow nationalistic aims have taken a much more selective and exclusive approach. While they are a minority, their voices are often heard the loudest because their well-published claims are aimed to coincide with major political or communal issues of the day [...] the communal focus began to grow, with the main antagonist being the Hindutva movement [...] The most well-known example of nationalist heritage destruction in India is that of Ayodhya [...] several archaeological investigations of Ayodhya and the surrounding area were made, including one in 1970 by the eminent archaeologist B. B. Lal [...] As Lal's earlier excavations of the site had provided no evidence to support the temple claims, the VHP archaeologists proceeded to manufacture it. Suddenly, in a right-wing Hindu magazine, Lal remembered having discovered what he considered to be burnt brick pillar bases during the excavation, though he had not considered this worth publishing at the time. These were now taken as evidence that a columned temple had once stood on the site. Later independent analysis of photographs of the trench in which Lal claimed to have found the pillar bases found that they were actually the remains of various walls of different, non-centemporaneous structural phases, and could not have been load-bearing structures (Mandal 2003) [...] other than one photograph, Lal has never made the notebooks and sketches of his excavations available to other scholars so that his interpretation could be tested (Sharma 2001, p.132) [...] It is difficult to accept lal's explanation of events and not come to the conclusion that the structural elements he had previously thought insignificant suddenly became temple foundations only in order to manufacture support for the nationalists' cause.

So far for the "eminent archaeologist," who 'manufactures support for the nationalist cause'. Do you actually read what you provide to "support" your stance? We can add this info and reference when the protection has expired.

And here's some more: Suraj Bhan (1997), Recent Trends in Indian Archaeology, Social Scientist. v 25, no. 284-285 (Jan-Feb 1997), p.11:

A glance at the above facts would show that there is a pattern in the construction of a myth with the support of archaeology. The first stage in the creation of tradition is evidenced by the attempt of B.B. Lal to identify the Painted Grey Ware Culture and the ancient sites yielding it with the Mahabharata story, Fortunately, A. Ghosh, Director General, Archaeological Survey of India, warned against such an attempt lest it defame official archaeology. But the situation changed after 1970 [...] The third stage in the growth of communalisation of archaeology was reached in 1990 when the same senior scholar (B.B. Lal) published an article in Man than, an R.S.S. magazine and embarked on a spree of lectures all over the country propagating the evidence from Ayodhya discussed above.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

And more:

  • Coningham, Robin; Young, Ruth (2015), The Archaeology of South Asia: From the Indus to Asoka, c.6500 BCE–200 CE, Cambridge University Press, p.84: "A controversial figure on account of his interpretations at Ayodhya." That's Cambridge University Press.
  • According to Adrija Roychowdhury (28 january 2021), Explained: Who is B B Lal, the Padma Vibhushan awardee who led excavation at Ramjanmabhoomi site?, theIndianExpress, Lal is "best known for his theory of a temple-like structure underneath the now demolished Babri mosque."
  • Michael Witzel (2006), Rama's realm, p.205: "The revisionists’ guild also includes [...] B.B. Lal (1997, 2002a, 2002b, 2003)."

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:02, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

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