|Basques has been listed as a level-4 vital article in Society. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as C-Class by the WikiProject Vital Articles.|
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Basques article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 3 months|
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
Basques are historically a little people (about 300.000 in 1800, a 1,5% spanish population). It's impossible these figures of Basque descendants (about 10% argentine people and others). For example, in the list of 100 most common surnames Argentines, only two Basque surname: Aguirre (126.000), Leguizamon (48.000). In addition, the Basque emigration to America is very small, as the Basque Country became industrialized at mid XIX and there was little emigration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:48, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Basques are a race, look at Armand Marie Leroi who proves that. We should add his article as a citation.
Basques are indoeuropean R1b haplogropup in 90%, the MOST RECENTS inhabitants of Europe. The basque lenguage its a koine of africans languages and celtic and latin. The basque myth... its only nationalism propaganda sustained by Basque government and institutions with much money and much violence.
And... Argentina 3.5 million, Chile 1.3 - 2.6 million, Cuba 1.5 million? it's a joke? In Spain, much less than 40% of the Basque provinces inhabitants are 'Basques'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
JUST in Spain as a whole, there are 4 million spaniards (outside the Basque autonomus community and Navarre autonomous community) with basque surnames (and with that, having basque ancestry). This figures count people with basque surnames in the world. In Argentina, Chile, etc... there is a large basque descended community. JUst in Chile figures about Basque ancestry are in between 10% and 20% of the population. So The figures are not incorrect. Saying this, we have to be carefull in for example the philippines where some people may have basque ancestry and some may have a basque surname as a given name, given to his ancestors who converted to christianity and adopted a new surname. You are also forgetting about the french basque diaspora and the basque navarrese diaspora. - signed by anon IP
Basques are indoeuropean people like spanish and south french people. Their language is a koine of Iberian, Celtic and Latin, emerged in III BC. Basques was only 200.000 people (total in Spain and France) in 1700. Stop Basque nationalist propaganda in Wikipedia.
- Blah blah blah, go away and find a reliable source (good luck) or your crap will get reverted out, that's how it works. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
- It is a disputed theory on Basque people are the closest descendants of Cro-Magnon and earlier, Neanderthal species, other than human races. The majority of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal remains tend to be in the Pyrenees of France and Spain. Geographical isolation and limited contact with Indo-European or Latin/Romance speaking peoples whose nations later claimed to rule the Basque country is theorized to preserved a high percentage of rare genetics. RH negative and O type blood frequency is the highest among the Basques than any other nationality or ethnicity, as well links to Central and East Asia, and even indigenous peoples of North and South America. And studies of COVID-19 survival and recovery rates on these countries' Basque people by coincidence were among the highest case counts in the world, but there were theories of the first human (common cold) coronaviruses from felines or cats infected Cro-Magnons who domesticated them and managed to adapt to a possible SARS like virus in the last ice age. Basque nationalists and genetic scientists theorized these people are among the world's oldest ethnic cultures. 2605:E000:100D:C571:94BD:B0F1:A6B9:12B5 (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
Eupedia thinks R1b-L21 was in Ireland more than 4000 years ago. If this turns out to be true, than we don't know the haplogroup of Celtic conquerors. Even in Switzerland ancient branches of R1a-M417 make up like 17% of haplogroup R. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 08:10, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
Basque Incoherence of figures of etnicity and descent
There are incoherences of content regarding Basque figures. For example in articles such as Basque Argentines or Basque Chileans, figures state a 3 to 3,5 million people for argentina and 1.6 to 2.7 million people of basque descent in Chile. This figures should be shown in this article in the same way German americans or German argentines are shown in the etnicity article "Germans". I think the data showing the total people of basque descent is not accurate at all and figures of the Basque diaspora, which are consider of basque descent and can even preserve basque culture should be included in the Basque article. This will solve the contradiction between the Diaspora articles, the Foreign Descent articles and the Basque ethnic one.
- I can't police every page on Wikipedia, just because there's junk on the diaspora page, doesn't mean that should be there either. I've looked at the "articles" that are used as "sources", they're all junk, they are almost all rough estimates based on the frequency of Basque surnames and for the millionth time, having a Basque surname doesn't make you Basque. The only admissible data are really census data actual research into identity. That's why the US and Canadian data is included because it's actual census or research data into (albeit self-declared) ethnic identification. Someone counting how many people called Izagirre are in the Buenos Aires phone book is fun, but not hard data. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- First of all the "sources" aren't junk. Some are based on government data. Nevertheless Im going to check the sources personally. Stating the Basque population as being just 3 million when millions of basques descendants live abroad, well is a lot of miscalculations. I understand the data may be unreliable. I will check it as I said. And again for a millionth time again: Having a Basque name automatically makes you a Basque by descent and basque by ethnicity (Except in the Philippines), just as someone having a German or Finnish Surname in the USA makes them of Finnish descent or ethnicity but not a Finn by nationality but an American. In the Finns article for example, Finnish American or Finnish Canadian are stated as Finns. Same should be done in the Basques article for the sake of Wikipedia's coherence. Someone born in Argentina and raised there with Basque ancestors and a Basque surname is a Basque by descent or ethnicity thus should be classified as such like in every other damm article. Alejojojo6 (talk) 17:51, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- The Finnish Canadian data is based on a census where people were able to indicate their claimed descent. That's very different from someone counting surnames in a phonebook. Doesn't matter how often you repeat yourself, you cannot assign people an ethnicity just based on the surname. Take an extreme example - a slave owner has a Basque surname. If the slaves are manumitted, traditionally they take their former owners surname. Now ignoring how offensive a convention that was, there is no way in hell you can claim these are suddenly all ethnic Basques. But their (male) descendents would carry the Basque surname. Akerbeltz (talk) 21:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- Following your logic then, not all the 3 million you state as "Basques" are so. As the basque country had emigration from the rest of Spain. On a note 90% of those with a Basque surname do have basque ancestry somewhere along their line the only exceptions being in the philippines. So you are basically setting yourself with a wrong estimate of the total number of basque people instead, leaving millions of Basques descendants in the world outside of this page which is wrong. You should be following the logic followed for all the ancestry pages on wikipedia. You will have more accurate numbers than cutting all those out. 0:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Learn how to read. It quite literally says including some areas where most people do not identify themselves as Basque. The figure serves as a realistic estimate i.e. it'll be somewhere below the total, but most likely not widely out of kilter with the top figure. I'm not even going to bother picking apart the rest, bring reliable sources (and that does NOT include some random e-zine putting out an estimate) or there is nothing to discuss. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:53, 9 November 2021 (UTC
Makes no sense to include people who dont identify as basque themselves in this figures and erase completely people in the americas who still consider and identify themselves as basques. Have some coherence and learn how to be less rude. Out of 3 million, Basque etnically would be less than 750 000 out of the 2 million figure provided for the Basque country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alejojojo6 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Are there any sources for Basques being indigenous to Basque Country in the sense that Native Americans in the United States, Maya peoples, First Nations peoples, Irish Travellers, Morioris, and Crimean Tatars are considered indigenous? ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 06:06, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- We don't say that Basques are indigenous in the sense you mention. In its most basic sense, 'indigenous' is largely synonymous with 'autochthonous', and this obviously applies to the Basques when you look at the "Origin" and "History" sections. So it's fine to say:
Basques are indigenous to and primarily inhabit an area traditionally known as the Basque Country.
- However, when it comes to the narrower sense that is commonly implied when talking about "Indigenous peoples" (with the package of massive territorial, economic, social and cultural marginalization), Basques fall outside of that category. –Austronesier (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with the first meaning for autochthonous, but I take the second view to be pretty arbitrary. The fact is that the stateless native peoples of Europe were wiped out from Wikimedia Commons as a category when they were not considered indigenous. Now we find misleading categories such as People from the Basque Country, which historically is obviously not the same thing as the Basques as an ethnic group defined by their language. The Basques are still an indigenous people, and discriminated as an ethnic/national group with only partial recognition. Iñaki LL (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Iñaki LL: Do you mind elaborating a bit on the last part? ~Chara of Arctic Circle System (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Well, it is a stateless people, Basque-language education was outlawed by the constitutional court in France last autumn, eventually leaving the ruling on hold following protests and demonstrations. Basques have been subjected to intense Frenchification historically, punishing children speaking Basque and alienating the Basques in all public spheres. Nowadays, Basque is banned in the railway network SNCF, its signposting and service to customers and as a requirements for certain job positions. The same goes for most of Navarre, where Basque linguistic profiles needed for services in administration for Basques have been discarded by the two main parties (only 1% of the administration labour holds a Basque language profile, as compared to the 12% of its population that can speak Basque).
- @Iñaki LL: Do you mind elaborating a bit on the last part? ~Chara of Arctic Circle System (talk) 22:06, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Unlike other Spanish autonomous communities with their own language (Galicia, Catalonia, even Asturias), Basque, the historic language of the Navarrese, is not considered a cultural heritage of Navarre. The administration of the Basque Autonomous Community does not guarantee public services after 40 years of autonomic statute, with continuous intervention of Spanish tribunals in matters of language requirement and use, to the point of even accepting reports to farmer market sellers for having signs only in Basque. By contrast, breach of law is commonplace in the areas of highest Basque-language density, for example by having Spanish-only doctors and civil servants, despite legally Basque being co-official in these areas. To different degrees depending on the area, alienation of the Basques, understood as Basque-language speakers, is an everyday reality. Regards Iñaki LL (talk) 22:21, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Iñaki LL: I apologize for the late response, but while the suppression of the Basque language is awful, I'm not so sure they'd be considered indigenous people. This document from the UN explains the current conditions generally used for coverage of groups as indigenous people. https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/workshop_data_background.doc Also are there any sources that say that Basques consider themselves indigenous to the region in any way other than as the original inhabitants of the region? English people are the original inhabitants of England but they're not indigenous (just to clarify what I mean). ~Ceres of Arctic Circle System (talk) 22:12, 10 July 2022 (UTC)