Talk:Catesby ap Roger Jones

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

"ap"?[edit]

It would be nice to have some explanation as to this unusual name. What is the significance of having non-capitalised "ap" in the middle of his given and middle name? 107.3.44.127 (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

The explanation was further down the page; “ap” is the Welsh patronymic, “son of.. ”  So Catesby ap Roger is “Catesby” (given name) “ap Roger” (son of Roger). Moonraker12 (talk) 21:13, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
OTOH the usage is hardly conventional: Early Welsh names had the format “given name + patronymic” only (ie “Catesby ap Roger”), but by the 16th century the Welsh were using the same form as the English; “given name + surname” (ie. “Catesby Jones”). So Jones's name here is more likely to be a given middle name “ap Roger”, which would abbreviate to “ap R” (as it is on his gravestone[1]) or omitted altogether. He had four brothers; none of them had a patronymic in their names[2].
It certainly isn't necessary in the title here, (we don't have any other Catesby Joneses) and is more confusing than anything. All the books I remember simply named him “Catesby Jones”, but a number of books published after 2005 have “Catesby ap Roger Jones”, which could well be a case of citogenesis. Moonraker12 (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2017 (UTC)