Talk:Catholic Apostolic Church

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Untitled section[edit]

According to the German Wikipedia, the rite has been widely extinct due to the discontinuing of epicsopal, presbyterial and diaconal consecrations. Also, the New Apostolic Church came into existance through a schism within the Catholic Apostolic Church. As I am German and English is not my mothertongue, I do not feel competent to write this into the article. Anybody like to do this? -- 12:17, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Hi Melissa, It seems to me the addictions in the wiki of the CAC regarding Adventism are mainly 20th century instead of the view in the Catholic Apostolic Church. I would like to change that. Any problem? Dutch Herder 09:05, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

No problem. The adventist material is mainly from Drummond.--Melissa
Perhaps a little confusing: A.L. Drummond is not the same one as Henry Drummond, so A.L. Drummonds discription of the Adventist point of view is not entirely identical with that of the CAC. Dutch Herder 09:08, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

F.W. Schwartz allways wrote his own name in the Netherlands with tz, and it's written on his gravestone also with tz. Dutch Herder 09:57, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This was to achieve the same pronunciation of the ending tz in Dutch as the z of Schwarz in German. --Faelan 15:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Just done a big edit to your original. Hope it works... The "Seven Signs of the Apocalypse" do not form part of the teaching of the C.A.C. Jeremynicholas 18:21, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


Something odd has happened in the Twelve Tribes section, in case anyone has the inclination to fix it. HenryFlower 14:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


Since this article was recently classed as a stub, I have done a major rewrite and expansion. Let me know... (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Edward Irving[edit]

Edward Irving neither neither actually founded nor anticipated the Catholic Apostolic Church. This is clearly stated in the text. It is also confirmed by the referenced work by Flegg.

SaneSerenity (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


I find this article to be actually one of the better researched articles on Wikipedia especially for such a little-known subject. However, from what I have read, early in the movement at least, riving and others were Milinearian. It would seem they believed in a literal return of Christ. Perhaps this changed when Drummond and the rest took over. I would like to see something in the article about Irving's futurist beliefs.

Also, the article neglects to mention how the movement died out, how its last officials died near the turn of the century, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The Millenialist approach was certainly part of the eschatology, and Irving, Drummond etc. believed in the literal return of Christ. See the section "Adventist theology" - this is typical, but what could be usefully added?
In addition the dates and places of the deaths of the last ministers is in the text. The book reference from Schröter ("Images ...") has a lot more information about this.
The work is not dead in the sense that it applies to the whole Christian Church (see first paragraph); neither is it dead in that there are still public meetings taking place from time to time in different countries.Jeremynicholas (talk) 21:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
To when was the second coming planned? As far as I can see the reason for the decline is inherent in the text: "last apostle dead" and "no second coming" implies "this s*cks!" (from the perspective of an adherent, that is). Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 19:01, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
No date was ever given for the second coming, as it is unknowable. After the death of the Apostle Cardale (more than 20 years before the last Apostle died), an address was given by another Apostle saying that they had thought that the apostolate would have lead the Church to the translation/resurrection without any of them dying, "but that they had been wrong." The address stresses the need for constant preparedness and also avoiding to push one's own ideas upon God, while affirming that the hope of the Church remained intact and that this was not man's work, but the Lord's work, and as He has started it, He would also finish it.
As to your point "this sucks", the response to the death of the last Apostle (not forgetting that the CAC is not limited to those who accepted Apostles but embraces the whole Church) was limited to the congregations: the chief ministers remaining stated that a period of humiliation and confession should follow, since Apostles had again been lost and were as such irreplaceable. This was held in 1902. You're right in that everything in this life will "suck" until the Second Coming, but that's not just limited to "adherents". Jeremynicholas (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Irving's trial and deposition[edit]

This article states the year of Irving's trial and deposition as 1931. The article Edward Irving says 1933, and it also says that he was deposed from the ministry of the Church of Scotland after he and his followers moved their activitites to a new address. A minor detail, but still: the articles contradict each other. --Hurven (talk) 13:12, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

The article United Apostolic Church contains a large section covering the history of the apostolic churches as a whole. Parts that are not covered in this article, for instance the Drummond conferences in Albury Park, should perhaps be transferred here. --Hurven (talk) 11:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Revisions to lead section[edit]

I have made revisions to the lead. The previous version began with what the subject of the article was not, as opposed to what it was. I've moved the text detailing the circumstances of the movements name to a separate paragraph in the introduction. Ltwin (talk) 01:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The lead section is wrong & NPOV[edit]

Quote: ... While often referred to as Irvingism, it was neither actually founded nor anticipated by Edward Irving. The Catholic Apostolic Church was organised in 1835 under the lead of apostles. The last apostle died in 1901 after which the membership gradually declined.

The term Catholic Apostolic Church belongs to the entire community of Christians who follow the Nicene Creed. It has, however, also become specifically applied to the movement. The title was never assumed by the members, except insofar as it applied to the whole community of Christians as described above. This misapprehension results from later external analysis, which assumed that the results of the ecumenical prayer movement in the early 19th century, accompanied by what were regarded as outpourings of spiritual gifts in Great Britain (and elsewhere, though swiftly repressed by the local church authorities in other countries), was the genesis of yet another Christian sect.

This is a lot of theory-finding, possibly resulting from a highly partial point of view. Edward Irving did found the church, there is no such thing as accidentally founding a church. Nor does the term Catholic Apostolic Church apply to all Christians "of the Nicene creed". AFAIK this is the name chosen by the church itself.

The non-NPOV attitude permeates the article, e. g. when it is claimed further on that "In 1830, prophetic utterances were recorded in Port Glasgow, Scotland, among dissenters and Karlshuld, Bavaria, among Roman Catholics. These took the form of prophecy, speaking in tongues and miraculous healing."

Please help to make this article NPOV. Thank you. Maikel (talk) 08:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Maikel, you state that, "The non-NPOV attitude permeates the article". 'Permeates' is a bit of an indictment. Does this mean you think that the entire article needs re-writing? On the other hand, it would be useful as a start if you identified all the POV attitudes of the article and we, or rather, other editors, take it from there. Politis (talk) 12:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Catholic Apostolic Church/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Had a go at destubbifying the article and reformatting for clarity. Let me know if this has helped. (talk) 20:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 11:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)