Talk:Clan MacNeacail

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Slightly mixed up[edit]

This page needs quite a bit of work. Some of the source material is way off, and it keeps creeping back as authoritative here.

The authoritative history of the Clan is "The Highland Clan MacNeacail (MacNicol)" by Sellar and Maclean. It has debunked much of the information written about the Clan.

I don't believe the Clan to have been a sept because it had its own Chief, and indeed still has.

It needs information on the surnames associated with it reinstated too - the term 'Clan MacNicol' started out when a completely unrelated Clan Nicolson claimed the entire clan as their own at the Lord Lyons Court. The Skye Nicolsons had to register under a separate name. So most of the members are called Nicolson, Nicholson, Nicoll, Nicholl and so on. That's useful information for readers to know.

Keeswiki 15:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

O'Hart genealogy[edit]

Although I can see a lot of work has gone into this, I fear that the article has become unbalanced as a result: Mr O'Hart's speculations now take up about half the page. Could I suggest that something along the lines of the following be inserted somewhere in the article instead (perhaps in the "tradition" subsection of the "Early history" section)? "The MacNeacails were among the families whom the Irish genealogist John O'Hart traced back to Adam and Eve via the early kings of Ireland." 45ossington (talk) 08:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free. Ben MacDui 08:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sellar mentions O'Hart in a footnote on page 35 of his book: The account of Nicolson origins in The Clan Nicolson cannot be followed; still less the pedigrees of John O'Hart (Irish Pedigrees 5th ed., 2 vols., Dublin, 1892; reprinred Baltimore, 1976) - which are notoriously unreliable, and in places quite fanciful. As regards the Nicolsons, O'Hart allowed himself to be misled by the extraordinary fictions of William Patrick Nicolson, residing in Cardiff, and later at Millaquin Refinery, Bundaberg, Queensland. The mentioned The Clan Nicolson is by J.G. Nicolson, published in 1938.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking about creating a page that has the full O Hart genealogy for this clan. Let me know what you think. Daniel the duck (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC).[reply]

I think a page like that is more suitable on Wikisource.Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Earldom of Ness"[edit]

The assertion that the MacNeacail clan "owned" the "Earldom of Ness" is unsourced and seems inherently unlikely. And a Google Books search for "Earldom of Ness" results only in a single hit - the Celtic Magazine in 1881; where and what was it? 45ossington (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure, but the quote about the sarcophagus just above that note is from the New Statistical Account of Scotland article on Kincardine (search "Loellin" in GoogleBooks and you'll find it). The note mentions Tarbat Ness, a place thought to be the site of a battle fought at 'Torfness' between Thorfinn the Mighty and Karl Hundason (=Macbeth?). I'm not sure the 'Earldom of Ness' mentioned in this book has anything to do with the MacNicols. Maybe Daniel was thinking of Ness on Lewis, and figured the MacNicols were seated there at one point? Either way I don't see any evidence of a reliable source supporting a MacNicol/'Earldom of Ness' connection.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 10:30, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Andres Nikolasson[edit]

Sellar noted that "there is no reason to believe that Andres Nikolasson was in any way related to the Skye Nicolsons, and every reason to believe the contrary. For Andres Nikolassen, see inter alia, P.A. Munch, Det Norske Folks Historie iv, pt. 1 (1858), pp. 451, 454-455, and 478. I am indebted to Dr. Barbara Crawford, University of St. Andrews, for this last reference."

Here's the Munch book: [1]. I can't read Norwegian, and the script makes it hard to copydown and translate. But from Googling about a bit, it seems to me that Andres died in 1273 while on Crusade. For example, here's an old French book on Scandinavian taking part in the Crusades: [2]. It states that, while in the service of the Norwegian king, Andres had 'a long stay' in France (p.350); and that he and a 'brother Maurice' journeyed to the east, but Andres died of fever in 1273 (p 358). This webpage looks like a reliable source: [3]. It states that when Andres died, he was the last of his line (as a son of Nikolas Pålsson, son of Pål Vågaskalm). On page 478 of Munch, I can make out the name "Nikolas Paalsson"; and in the last bit about Andres on that pag, I can make out "Palaestina" and "Broder Mauritius" in a relation to the year "1273". So it seems to me that Andres was in the Norwegian service after the Isles were ceded to Norway, and that he is regarded to have left no male descendants when he died on Crusade in 1273.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:21, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then, I'll keep looking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.64.80.135 (talk) 15:30, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Please stop reverting then.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gregall[edit]

I think something should be added about Gregall, the great warrior and ancestor of the clan. He is mentioned in many other Clan MacNicol articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.133.102.240 (talk) 16:11, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the name "Gregall" is merely a garbled name from MS 1467. There are actually two men named Nicol, and one further back with a name that Skene transcribed as "Gregall".
There's a note of a tradition relating to the clan in the First Statistical Account of Scotland, for Assynt. The tradition runs that the 'ancient Thanes of Sutherland' gave a forest to one of their vassals named "Mac-Kry-cull". Also noted in this account was a place near Ullapool where "Mac-Kry-cull" had his house.
Skene thought that the "Gregall" of MS 1467 was the man refered to in the the First Statistical Account of Scotland. However, Sellar noted that in Gaelic, the n-sound is sometimes rendered as an r-sound. One example of this that I can think of is that the English McCracken is derived from the Gaelic MacReachtain, which is in turn a variant of Gaelic MacNeachtain ("MacNaughton"). An example in relation to the clan would appear be a certain Gaelic place name on Lewis, noted by Sellar, Caisteal Mhic Creacail ("MacNicol's Castle"). According to Sellar, the "Mac-Kry-cull" of the First Statistical Account of Scotland merely refers to the Gaelic "MacNeacail". He also noted one Gaelic place name at Ullapool is a certain Caisteal Mhic Neacail (MacNicol's Castle). Like we've covered before, Sellar figured that the eponym of the clan was likely the first Nicol in MS 1467 (the father of John), and that this man likely lived sometime in the 13th century.
So your 'warrior' Gregall is a conflation of a garbled name in MS 1467 and a MacNeacail noted in the First Statistical Account of Scotland.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 23:15, 23 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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