Talk:Clarice Lispector/Archive 1

Archive 1

Ethnicity

The writer is Jewish, not Ukrainian. In Ukraine (and elsewhere in Eastern Europe) Jews are considered a nationality and not just religion - it said so on their passports. For example there are some Orthodox Christians who are Jewish by nationality (see for example Alexander Men).

Particularly 100 years ago, there was segregation in that Jews lived in their own settlements, spoke Yiddish or Hebrew (and Polish) and not a word of Ukrainian. Nowadays they would be considered Ukrainain because of Ukrainian citizenship. But in those days (when this author's family emigrated) even that would not be the case. They were Polish or Russian citizens, of Jewish ethnicity or background. With respect to living in Ukraine for 1,000 - yes, but again that does not mean that they are Ukrainian. Poles, for example, have lived in Ukraine for centuries also, and yet they are not categorized on wikipedia as Ukrainians. Look at the articles on Stanisław Albinowski, the writer Joseph Conrad, and many others all born in what is now Ukraine but properly categorized as Poles. With respect to Jews, famous Jewish philosopher Martin Buber, whose family originates in UKraine, also not considered Ukrainian. And the famous Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal is also from Ukraine, and is properly labeleld as Jewish or Austrian or Ukrainian Jew. He would probably be surprised to be called a "Ukrainian."

There is nothing Nazi-like or racist about proper categorization.Faustian (talk) 16:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This is insane. First and foremost, this thing about jewish being a nationality in Ukraine is BULL. I was engaged to an Israeli/Ukrainian once, and her Ukrainian passport DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HER BEING JEWISH. If this is how it used to be done in the past, then I am glad people evolved. Nevertheless, categories are to reflect methods of categorisation used in the present.FACT: Deep Purple is a hard rock band because that's how it is perceived today. And not "heavy metal" as it used to be called in the 70s.

Moreover, the fact that someone is born in one particular country or region is just one factor about this person's heritage. Then you have where this person has spent most of his/her life (that is where this person's 'heart is'), and yes, I agree that ethnicity also plays an important part in the personsç ultural upbringing (but not always).

Carlos Gardel for example, although he was born in France, he was naturalised Argentinean and had strong ties with Argentina (as well with Uruguay). In the case of Clarice Lispector, as with many other Brazilians, she had an European background. If there is a category for Brazilian-Ukrainians, we might as well use it when appropriate (like in this case) --Pinnecco (talk) 07:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, my father-in-law's passport said Jewish and he was proud of it. There are very many people from Ukraine who are not categorized as Ukrainian. These include:

• Mikhail Bulgakov, Russian writer, born and spent his early years in Kiev, today's capital
• Leon Trotsky, Revolutionary
• Joseph Conrad, Polish writer born in a Polish estate in Ukraine
• Keni Liptzin, famous actress of Yiddisj theater, born in Zhytomir, Ukraine
• Sviatoslav Richter, famous Soviet piantist, half-German, half-Russian. Born in Zhytomir and grew up in Odessa, Ukraine.

I can look up hundreds of such people, non-Ukrainians from Ukraine, if I had more time. The bottom line is that not everyone from Ukraine is Ukrainian, and there is nothing racistic about saying so.Faustian (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may weigh in here, for what it's worth, because this is an interesting question: at the time of Lispector's birth, there was no such thing as a Ukrainian Jew. The most accurate way to describe her would be as a Russian Jew, and this is indeed how the Jews who immigrated to the New World described themselves in their new countries. In Brazil as in the United States, there was no such category as Ukrainian Jews for the simple reason that there was no such thing as a Ukrainian state. Under the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union, the Ukrainians and the Jews were considered two separate ethnicities. And earlier, the Jews, like the Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians, and so forth, belonged to the Russian Empire and could thus be described as Russians, and all the other labels were ethnic rather than national. In my opinion, the category of "Ukrainian Jews," properly speaking, can really only be given to a Jewish citizen of the Republic of Ukraine, i.e. since Ukrainian independence following the breakup of the Soviet Union, and is ahistorical when applied to 1920. The Lispector family were Russian citizens and travelled to Brazil on a Russian passport. But "Jewish" was absolutely an official ethnic category at the time, though it is nice to know that the current Ukrainian state has eliminated that distinction in its passports and other documents. 213.10.130.30 (talk) 15:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And one more thing: I don't have any real objection to the Ukrainian-Brazilian label since that is how Lispector, however erroneously, is known in Brazil. It should be said, though, that Ukrainian-Brazilians--that is, Christian Ukrainian-speaking communities of immigrants--do exist, mainly in the state of Paraná, and that they have always been totally distinct from the Jews who originated in today's Ukrainian Republic. Again, for what it's worth. 213.10.130.30 (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming the reality which I had described. Do you have links that Lispector is generally, erroneously known in Brazil as a Ukrainian-Brazilian? If this is indeed the case, then she can be included in that category. My impression is that an editor found out that she or her family were from what is now Ukraine and then just added her into the category, in which case she should be removed. BTW, there is an article started by me about Ukrainian Brazilians you might be interested in. regardsFaustian (talk) 15:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What a great initiative! I didn't know about that article but it is very interesting and I thank you for pointing it out to me. Erroneous it may be, but any educated Brazilian will know Lispector as Ukrainian. If you put in "Lispector" and "ucraniana" into Google, you will get literally hundreds of hits. In that context, I think that it probably is best to put the "Ukrainian-Brazilian" label onto her page, particularly as she is by far the best-known Brazilian who meets that description, however inaccurately. Perhaps for the sake of stricter accuracy one could put the label "Russian Jews" as well. 213.10.130.30 (talk) 17:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it an will place her in that category.Faustian (talk) 18:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If Clarice Lispector was not Ukrainian because she was a Jew born in a region that only decades later became Ukraine, George Washington, the first president of the Unites States, was not an American as well, because he was also born in a place that only decades later became the United States. He also was not American because, before independence, people there did not see themselves as Americans, but as "Georgians", "Virginians", "New Yorkers", etc. According to you, George Washington was not American.

According to you, the United States had a non-American president. Opinoso (talk) 19:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. George Washington was born British and later became an American citizen after the birth of the American republic. I believe the first president born in the United States was Martin van Buren. Eve.b.i (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that the people Opinoso was talking about never became Ukrainian citizens. So the example is invalid. Also the colonists considered themselves Americans in some sense long before independence.Faustian (talk) 19:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Faustian, you are wrong. In the American Civil War, almost 100 years after independence, people did not see themselves as "Americans", but as "Southerners" and "Northerners".

Wrong. They saw themselves as northern Americans and as Southern Americans.Faustian (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

American identity only came out in the late 1800s. American was only a nationality, not an identity.

Wrong again.Faustian (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

So, according to you conseption, the United States had lots of non-American presidents. Because the American identity only came out with the end of the American Civil War, in 1865. Before that there were only "Northerners" and "Southerners", not "Americans". Before Civil War, they saw themselves as "New Yorkers" or "Geogians", never as "Americans".

Look, you are just making yourself look foolish. Here is Thomas Jefferson of Virginia (southern US state) writing in 1802 [1]:

"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them (around the banks),will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

I am sorry, but you know nothing about American History.

Sorry, but you know as little about America as you do about Jews.Faustian (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Clarice Lispector was Ukrainian, because her passaport was Ukrainian. We don't care if she saw herself was Ukrainian or if the society used to treat her as Ukrainian. The same way George Washington was American, not matter if when he was born there was no "United States" or if the saw himself as an "American".

Clarice Lispector's passport could not have a Ukrainian passport because Ukraine did not exist and did not have passports when she was alive. So you don't know about CLarice Lispecotr and you don't know about Ukraine.Faustian (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But, if Clarice Lispector was not Ukrainian because she when she was born there was not a definied Ukraine yet, and because she was not "ethnic" Ukrainian, George Washington was not American as well, because he was born decades before Unites States was born and he was not "ethnic" Native American, he was "ethnic" European.

Odd conseption...Opinoso (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you learn before you edit.Faustian (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you to say "I was wrong, I am sorry" or create a biography saying George Washington was a non-American president. lol. Opinoso (talk) 23:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the point here is not to defend by attacking. To call eachother racist can be see as negative. I do think that the views of users like Faustian can be seen as offensive, not not necessarily because of a racist ideology but simply because of ignorance. Certain people are not used to the level of multiculturalism that we have in Brazil. I suggest we involve users from the Brazilian task-force and portal, particularly the ones that helped create articles such as Italian/Brazilians, Japanese/Brazilians, African/Brazilians, and so on. Furthermore, quoting that in the middle of the last century, things were done in a way in one given region are by no means a useful argument. In fact it is a fallacy. Things change through time and regions. --Pinnecco (talk) 11:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I understand that Brazil is a multi-ethnic country with different views of ethnicity. However we are writing about people from Eastern Europe, who feel differently. A Russian or Pole or Jew from Ukraine generally did not think of himself as "Ukrainian" until the 1990's (and now, only as a citizen, not as an ethnic Ukrainian). It is as inapropriate to apply Brazilian terms to a Ukrainian as it would be Ukrainian terms to a Brazilian. Lispector is as Brazilian as any African-Brazilian - but is not Ukrainian. This is not an ancient notion - look at the talk pages of Vladimir Vernadsky for example to see that it is a modern issue. I am not ignorant of Brazilian conceptualizations, but you should be aware of European ones.Faustian (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may wade into a discussion that I fear has become far too heated, there is nothing racist about this. But the idea that Lispector is Ukrainian is so widespread in Brazil that I understand that Brazilians will find it odd to see her described any other way. Just because this is a widespread belief, however, does not make it true in any scientific sense. The fact is no Jews who immigrated to Brazil from what is now the Ukrainian Republic ever thought of themselves as Ukrainian. They were Jews first, and Russian Jews second. Never were they Ukrainians, which, as Faustian writes, is a term that can only be applied to citizens of the Ukrainian Republic or persons of ethnic Ukrainian heritage. The fact is that at that time saying you were "Ukrainian" in Brazil, when the Ukraine was not a defined political entity and very few people would even have heard of it, would have been as absurd as a Chinese-American today saying that they were Yunnanese, or Szechuan, rather than Chinese. Even more so, for the Jews themselves, this would have been utterly fantastic. There were very large differences between Ukrainians and Jews, just as there were between Ukrainians and Tatars and Kazahs and Armenians and any other of the constituent minorities of the Russian Empire. In the case of Lispector (whose bibliography I am very well acquainted with), there is not a single description of herself in any of the vast literature surrounding her in which she describes herself as a Ukrainian. Not surprising, moreover, given what her family suffered at the hands of the Ukrainian nationalist movement. She was a Jewish citizen of the Russian Empire at birth and remained so until she was naturalized as Brazilian when she came of age. For the Brazilians out there, I would refer you to Nádia Gotlib's new "Clarice Fotobiografia" which reproduces two different Russian passports with which her family travelled to Brazil. Eve.b.i (talk) 14:05, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

If Ukrainians in Estern Europe disagree with this perspective, it doesn't matter. The fact is that there is a big Ukrainian community in the south of Brazil that would disagree with you. It woud be, in fact, very un-cyclopedic to just disregard the fact that she is widely known in Brazil as a Brazilian-Ukrainian. I suggest that people that is unaware of Lispector's background to just leave this article alone for those who know about the subject. --Pinnecco (talk) 09:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not only Ukrainians in Eastern Europe, but Jews in Eastern Europe and Clarice Inspector herself - who never in her life or writings described herself as Ukrainian - disagreed with this perspective. As for the opinions of Ukrainians in Brazil - can you provide any proof that they consider her to be one of their own?Faustian (talk) 13:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Can you provide any proof that Ukrainian-Brazilians do not consider Lispector their own? Opinoso (talk) 20:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The burdon of proof is on the person making the positive assertion that this is the case. See this: [2] and the articleNegative proof. If you assert that Ukrainians in Brazil consider Lispector one of their own, then please prove it. Likewise, if you assert that Lispecter considered herself Ukrainian, then please prove it.Faustian (talk) 21:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Opinoso, as I said before is better to have other Brasilians to come over and give their input. You can lead a horse to water... --Pinnecco (talk) 23:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Naturally, noone is better qualified to understand Eastern European ethnic identity than a Brazilian.Faustian (talk) 23:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't go there if I was you... I probably know more about Easten European ethnicity (since a) I did academic research about the subject, b) I was engaged to a Russian-born Ukrainian national) than you would ever dream to know about multi-ethnicity (i.e.: Ukrainian-Brazilians) --Pinnecco (talk) 21:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may interject (I was drawn here by a peer review)... this discussion is unwarranted and unnecessary. It's not up to any of us to determine ethnicity here, but a reliable, third-party source. Is there a source that identifies Lispector as Ukrainian, for example? Is there any published discussion of this confusion of ethnicity (if so, it merits inclusion in the article)? --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree 100%. This discussion is a spin-off of a discussion on the article about Ukrainians in Brazil. I finally requested [3] that someone simply provide a source stating that the person is Ukrainian. No one has done so.Faustian (talk) 02:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I am starting to have some doubts the level of IQ of some people involved in this discussion... The fact we're discussing here is that some users just removed the article of Clarice Lispector from the category of Ukrainian-Brazilians. A category that is well established and exists simply to denote people of multi-ethnicities, the same way there are categories of Italian-Americans, Italian-Brazilians, German-Brazilians and so on. It is widely known that Clarice Lispector was born in Ukraine. No need to prove that the same way there is no need to prove that the capital of Ukraine is Kiev. --Pinnecco (talk) 21:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No need to resort to insults. Albert Camus was born in what is now Algeria; he is not listed as an Algerian or an Arab. Rudyard Kipling was born in India. He is not listed as an Indian. Mikhail Bulgakov was born in Ukraine - he is not listed as a Ukrainian either (he is Russian). Only in the unique case of people ending up in Brazil does confusion arise among some editors. Please find a source stating that the person is a Ukrainian person before categorising them as a Ukrainian. Not from Ukraine - unless you believe that Asander was a Ukrainian king 2,000 years ago because his land is now part of Ukraine. Clarice Lispector never in her writings claimed to have been Ukrainian. She was never a Ukrainian citizen. She never associated with the Ukrainian community in Brazil or elsewhere. But never mind logic or common sense - the bottom line, find a source please stating that she is a Ukrainian before listing her as a Ukrainian, Ukrainain-Brazilian, etc.Faustian (talk) 04:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

FYI: Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, pp. 277-278 "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common." As I said, Lispecter and other Jews from shtetls in Ukraine were as Ukrainian as Albert Camus and other Pied-Noir were Arabs.Faustian (talk) 04:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Who cares? Chinatown in the Unites States is a world into themselves. But Chinese Americans are Americans.

Because those Chinese are citize4ns.Faustian (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Pomerode, in Southern Brazil. They speak German there. Who cares? They are as Brazilians as a Black female selling Acarajé in a street of Salvador, Bahia.

Because they are all Brazilian citizens and probably think of themselves as Brazilians too.Faustian (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

In websites about Ukrainian-Brazilians, Lispector is always listed:

[4] [5]

Those are just describing geography or are froma blog.Faustian (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Give up. Opinoso (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the truth is important, and am stubborn about it.Faustian (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

But the bottom line is that we need evidence that this person is, specifically, a Ukrainian person. Your claim that because she was born in territory that is now Ukraine, she is a Ukrainian person is original research (it's your opinion) in addition to being contradicted by numerous examples I've given of people being born in Ukraine and not being considered Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 13:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

From Paul Robert Magocsi [6] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact witht he culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).

So, in response to your opinions, I have added sourced referenced statements that Jews in Ukraine were a seperate community whose interaction with non-Jews was limited to economic transactions, and that they did not identify themselves as Ukrainians. Furthermore, since Ukraine was not independent until the 1990's, people such as Lispector could never have had Ukrainian citizenship (indeed, another editor has told you that her Russian passport can be accessed on-line). So, it seems that you confuse geography with ethnicity and engage in Anachronism. Please, let's keep wikipedia accurate and base edits on sourced material.Faustian (talk) 13:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

And here are some academic references to Lispector's backround:

• University of Texas Press "Clarice Lispector was born in Tchetchelnik, Ukraine, on December 10, 1925. Her parents were Russian, but the family emigrated to Brazil when she was only two months old, and she spent her childhood at Recife in the northeastern state of Pernambuco."

• [7] "Lispector, who was indisputably the daughter of Russian Jewish immigrants..."

Lispecter herself [8]: "“From time to time I receive letters asking me if I am Russian or Brazilian and people invent all sorts of myths about me,” she declares, before going on to dispute claims of her foreignness and insist upon her native Brazilian roots." No mention of being Ukrainian.

Well, enough of me proving that black is not white and white is not black. I think that this is clear.Faustian (talk) 16:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Everybody in "Ukraine" at that time was "Russian". How can you say that non-Jews felt Ukrainians?

If Lispector, born in Ukraine, is called "Russian", everybody born in Ukraine at that time was Russian as well.

Let's change the name of this article to "Russians of Brazil". Ukrainians did not exist under Russian rule. Opinoso (talk) 16:51, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate that you have difficulty understanding these things. Many Jews, Poles, Russians and other non-Ukrainians were born in Ukraine. As the sources above indicated, Jews identified themselves as their own group but if they took on another identity it was a Russian identity. You are trying to force upon them an identity that they themselves did not feel and that is not supported by any evidence meeting wikipedia standards of inclusion. As for your opinions regarding changing an article to "Russians of Brazil" a basic knowledge of eastern European history would tell you that the overhwelming majority of Ukrainian immigrants to Brazil weren't even from the part of Ukraine that was part of the Russian Empire.Faustian (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

You argue Lispector was not Ukrainian because she was a Russian citizen. But, everybody at that time was a Russian citizen in Ukraine. So, I can't see any difference between Lispector and the other "Ukrainians", despite their religion or faith.

Culture is not a matter to say a person is Ukrainian or not. Many of these "Ukrainians" probably did not follow a "Ukrainian" life style.

There were NO Ukrainians, only Russians. Opinoso (talk) 20:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, whatever. Obviously you can't (or pretend you can't) grasp the idea that citizenship and nationality/ethnicity/culture are not the same thing. This is your problem. Just keep in mind that wikipedia articles are based on legitimate sources not personal opinions. My opinions are as irrelevent as yours. The literature itself tells us Lispecter was not Ukrainian as I've documented above. The literature also tells us that people other than Lispector living in the Russian Empire were indeed Ukrainians. I'm sorry you have a problem with these facts. Faustian (talk) 21:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Stop changing your arguments. 5 minutes ago you said Lspector was not Ukrainian because she was a Jew. 2 minutes ago, because she was not a Ukrainian citizen.

FIRST: The religion or race does not matter to classify a person as Ukrainian or not.

SECOND: Nobody was a Ukrainian citizen, because it was under Russian rule. Everybody was Russian.

YOU are giving your personal opinion to say Lispector was not a Ukrainian because she had Jewish blood, not Slavic.

Segregationist view, and personal opinion.

By the way, what is a Ukrainian culture?? Why Lispector was not a Ukrainian in culture?

What is this so important Ukrainian culture? Everybody with typical clothes, dancing some folk Ukrainian dance, eating some Ukrainian food?

Please, stop watching hollywood movies. Opinoso (talk) 05:51, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing personal about my edits. I base them on reliable sources.Faustian (talk) 21:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

You changed are personal. You already told me to use "common usage". This is ridiculous.

You did not bring us sources to exclude Lispector from "Ukrainians". You only reported she can't be Ukrainian because she was a Jew.

Bring us sources saying Jews can't be Ukrainians, and stop using your pathetic 18th "common usage".

This is an encyclopedia. It is not a "common usage" place. Find a forum to sell your 200 years ago ideas. Opinoso (talk) 01:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, if you claim she is Ukrainian the burdon of proof is on you to prove that she is Ukrainian. You haven't done so - you only showed that she was born in Ukraine, just like many other non-Ukrainians born in Ukraine such as the non-Ukrainian Russian native of Kiev Mikhail Bulgakov. Please show us one source that states that Lispecter is a Ukrainian person.Faustian (talk) 03:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Lispector is Ukrainian the same way Dante Alighieri (the biggest Italian writer) is Italian, even though he was born centuries before the Unification of Italy and spoke a different dialect from nowadays standard Italian.

Lispector is Ukrainian the same way George Washington was American, even though he was born years before the United States became a country.

Are you claiming Alighieri was not Italian and Washington was the first non-American president of the Unites States.

Yes, because Alighieri did not "feel Italian" (he felt as a citizen from Florence, because Italy was not a country, but diveded as small countries). However, nowadays, Alighieri is the "father of the Italian language", or the "greatest Italian writer".

The same goes for Washington. He was born in Virginia, a colony of England. However, when he was an adult, he became the first American president. He probably did not feel "American" ultill the independe; he felt only "Virginian".

Dante Alighieri was not an Italian citizen, not even felt Italian. But is the greatest Italian writer, because centuries after, Italy was unified.

So, I ask you. If Lispector is not Ukrainian (even though her family has been living in Ukrainian territory for at least 1,000 years) only because she did not speak Ukrainian or did not believe in Jesus (she was a Jew), Alighieri was not Italian and Washington was the first non-American president.

If you proof both Alighieri and Washington were not what they are (Italian and American), I will let you erase Lispector's name. But, if you cannot proof, you have to give up with your pathetic ideas.Opinoso (talk) 04:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

These are just your aguments and opinions. Sources please, stating that Lispecter was a Ukrainian. Not theories about George Washington etc. And your facts are wrong, too. Lispecter like other shtetl dwellers was the descendent of Jews who arrived in Ukraine in the 16th-17th centuries, not having been there 1,000 years (source: Subtleny's Ukraine: a History, University of Toronto Press, page 276).Faustian (talk) 04:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Sources, please, stating that Lispector was NOT Ukrainian. My sources says she was born in Ukraine, to Ukrainian parents of Jewish faith.

So, you bring sources claiming she was not Ukrainian.

1,000 years, 100 years or 5 years, NO difference. She was born in Ukraine, her parents were from there too. She was Ukrainian.

Bring sources to claim she was not. Opinoso (talk) 04:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You claim she was: prove it. Her being Ukrainian was your claim. Similarly, if you claim she was Chinese or a physicist it is up to you to show that she was, not up to others to prove that she wasn't Chinese and wasn't a physicist. People generally don't write about what somebody isn't, they write about what someone is. And, apparently, since you can't find a reference, nobody has written that she is a Ukrainian.Faustian (talk) 04:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

We do not need sources. The fact she was born in Ukraine makes her a Ukrainian to normal people's view.

Of course, Nazi people only see her as a Jew, whose family has been "lost" in Ukraine for 1,000 years. That's why they killed 6 million Jews, even though they have been in Europe for centuries.

But this is a view for insane people.

Normal people see a person born in Ukraine as Ukrainian. Normal people won't look if the person make up the "majority" of the country. Normal people won't ask if the person belong to the main religion of the region, if the person has blond or dark hair.

Normal people will say Lispector is Ukrainian based that her family lived there for many, many years.

The source says she was born in Ukraine, to Ukrainian parents of Jewish faith. For normal people, she is Ukrainian.

But, if you see her as a non-Ukrainian because she had no blond hair or did not believe in Jesus Christi, this is your own business. The source for normal people is there.

If you do not agree, find some source to claim that, even if her family lived in Ukraine for centuries, her Jewish background do not allow her to be Ukrainian.

However, Nazi sources are not accepted. Only Nazi would try to exclude a person for being Jewish.

I give you 2 days to show us why a Jew can't be Ukrainian. We don't care if they felt Ukrainians or not, if they were citizens of Ukraine or not.

The fact that theu lived in Ukraine for centuries make them Ukrainians, to normal people's opinion.

Do you have any source explaining why they can't?? I guess you don'tOpinoso (talk) 04:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Opinoso (talk) 04:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, your abuse is unacceptable. And for the third time (at least), sources shwoing that Jews in Ukraine weren't Ukrainian (and I don't just single them out - Russians or Poles in Ukraine weren't Ukrainian either):

Sources showing that Jews are a different ethnic group than Ukrainians:

Orest Subtelny's Ukraine: A History, published by University of Toronto Pres, described (pg. 276) how Jews arrived in Ukraine in the 16th-17th centuries. On pp. 277-278 he writes: "the tight, insular, traditionalist Jewish shtetl communities [where Lispecter was from - Faustian] were a world unto themselves. There, Jewish Orthodox religion, culture, and language (Yiddish) dominated...contact with the "outside" world was limited to economic transactions." "Culturally, the Jews and Ukrainians had little in common."

From Paul Robert Magocsi [9] book Ukraine: A History, published by University of TOronto Press: "Since Ukraine was home to many different peoples, it generated other Ukrainian diasporas, or more precisely, diasporas from Ukraine. Numerically the most important was that of the Jews....A few prominant Jews from Ukraine were able to maintain contact with the culture of their geographic birthplace, which they invariably identify as "Russia".This has been particularly the case with musicians, such as Nathan Milstein...and the Vladimir Horowitz, the Kiev-trained piano virtuoso, who after six decades of living abroad was finally able to fulfill his dream during the late 1980's by returning home to perfrom in what he called my Russia. (pg. 431).

Encyclopedia Britannica cites the census as classifying Jews in Ukraine as an ethnic group seperate from Ukrainians, just like Russians, Belarussians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, etc: [10] "The 1991 Soviet census also revealed Russians to be the largest minority, at 22 percent. The remaining minorities, in 1991 making up about 5 percent of the population, include Jews, Belarusians, Moldovans, Bulgarians, Poles, Hungarians, and Romanians."Faustian (talk) 04:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

This is the 100 years ago Ukrainian view. Maybe that's why Ukraine is among the poorest countries of Europe.

Anyway, nowadays, a person born in Ukraine is Ukrainian. The same apllies from Lispector. If she did not immigrate to Brazil, her grandchildren would be Ukrainians. Maybe she would have an important writer grandson, who would be called as the "greatest Ukrainian writer". Maybe it would happen.

Nowadays, she is Ukrainian. We don't care for your "common usage" or poor country's segregationist opinions.

We don't care about ethnic groups and these pathetic divisions in Eastern Europe. We are in the 21se century, and we are not using odd conseptions of 200 years ago. Opinoso (talk) 05:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The sources I gave above were from the 1990's, not 200 years ago. I notice that once again you didn't provide any sources, only your opinion (and insults - this time of Ukraine, apparently, for being poor).Faustian (talk) 05:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The source is new, but they view of the author is from 200 years ago.

There are 2 conseption of being Ukrainian:

1) A person who felt Ukrainian (200 years ago).

Answer: We will never know if Clarice felt Ukrainian. Probably not, because she was raised in Brazil and felt Brazilian.

2) Born in Ukraine (nowadays)

Answer: She was born in Ukraine and her family lived there for centuries. So, the is Ukrainian.

Other conseptions, like ethnic groups, race or religion cannot be taken seriously. These are Nazi conseptions and are not used in Wikipedia.

Lispector is a Ukrainian by birth. Opinoso (talk) 05:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Jewish Identity in Ukraine

This is from the website of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. I hope nobody accuses it of being a Nazi website or having 200 year old values:[11]

Jewish Identity

Jewish identity in the post-Soviet states is much more likely to be expressed as a sense of Jewish heritage than as adherence to Judaism as a religion. For Jews in these countries, the Jewish religion is hardly a factor in Jewishness. Russian and Ukrainian Jews consider belief in God, observance of the Sabbath, the dietary laws (kashrut), and circumcision as quite irrelevant to being a ‘good Jew.' What makes a good Jew is knowledge of history and culture and, especially, feeling pride in one's Jewishness and a duty to remember the Shoah or Holocaust.

Further, those Jews who identified most strongly as Jews were among the first to leave Ukraine when emigration became possible in the post-Khrushchev period. Jewish adults who remain in Ukraine are unlikely to be agents of Jewish socialization within their own families as decades of Soviet restrictions against Jewish education and practice have left them ignorant of Jewish tradition. Intermarriage also weakens the family as a transmitter of Jewish heritage.

So let's not rob Jewish people of their Jewish self-identification.Faustian (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Bibliography, citation and sources

Eve, I am moving our talks about cooperation to the discussion page, so other users can benefit from it. I decided to translate this English article to Portuguese, as based on your contributions we can greatly enhance the article in Wikipedia-pt. I am going to check some of the bibliography you cited in-line. Which books do you consider the most useful? I probably won't have the time to dig very deeply in the research, probably checking a couple of books, maybe five at most. Editor br (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, editor br. There are a few standard works on Clarice. Nádia Battella Gotlib's Clarice : uma vida que se conta and her beautiful recent Clarice Fotobiografia, Teresa Cristina Montero Ferreira's Eu sou uma pergunta. If you look on Amazon, you will see that there is also a forthcoming English biography, Benjamin Moser's Why This World: A Biography of Clarice Lispector, but that is not available until August. Eve.b.i (talk) 13:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Eve, thank you so much for the references. I will get the copies of these works by January/February, when I got back to the University. Let you know as soon as I can. Editor br (talk) 16:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Good, Editor. Another one that is interesting and that occurs to me now is Olga Borelli's Clarice Lispector : esboço para um possível retrato, which is however rare and often hard to find. But a good university library in the US should have it. Boa sorte! Eve.b.i (talk) 16:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Found the title in the library! Now I am happy that my Univ's library is good. ;-) Abraco, Editor br (talk) 13:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Images

Eve, I see that you posted a photo taken in 1947, which is under the fair-use US copyright law. Unfortunately I cannot use this image in Wikipedia-pt as we don't accept images under "fair-use" classification. Do you own the rights of this picture? You would be entitled to that if you took it, if you have the "legal rights" to it, or if the person that took it already passed away and you legally inherited it. Otherwise I will not be able to use it. Editor br (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I own the picture and the rights to it. The photographer, Bluma Wainer, died in the fifties. I received it from someone who received it from her. So feel free to use it if you like. Eve.b.i (talk) 13:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I also noticed that you uploaded a large number of covers in Wikimedia Commons. While you cannot do it in Commons if you don't have a good rational or explanation of copyrights, you can upload to the Wikipedia-en servers under the fair-use, which are different from Wikimedia Commons. Most of your images that you recently uploaded were deleted but I suggest you upload them again, in Wikipedia English now. As far as I understood, you are entitled to use them in this article.

Yes, that is what I understood too. Thank you for the clarification. I was not aware of the difference between Wikipedia-en and Commons. Eve.b.i (talk) 13:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Check Wikipedia:Fair_use: "Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)."

Hope I was of any help. Editor br (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Editor, I have just uploaded the images again in accordance with your suggestions. It may be too much - I don't know. But I think they liven up the article a bit. I don't know what the Brazilian situation is but you can of course feel free to use them there as well.

Also, it occurred to me that if you want any of the quotes I used in Portuguese, I can give them to you. Just ask and I can send them. Eve.b.i (talk) 18:51, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Eve, if you have the copyright rights, could you please upload the Clarice image in the Commons, so I can update the Brazilian version? Thanks! Editor br (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Eve, as for the book covers, it does make it very lively, but it may be too much for the main article. Why don't we pick the best ones and save the others for when we create individual articles for each book (if that is the way we decide to move on)? Cheers, Editor br (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, Editor br, that is fine. I will do it when I get a minute. I agree about the book covers, but just wanted to put them all in one place. I think it's a good idea to create individual articles for the books at some point. (And will you please get rid of that awful grad-school lit-crit stuff on the Portuguese page?! Oy vey! Clarice merece mais! Eve.b.i (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I have now uploaded the image to Commons. Hope you can use it! Eve.b.i (talk) 17:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Birth name

I found a couple of internet references saying that her birth name was Haia, not Chaia. Can you find a citation that confirms that her name started with C? Thanks! Editor br (talk) 12:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The Hebrew name is obviously spelled differently in ways I can't reproduce here - but it is the same name. The standard English spelling of this name is Chaya, which wouldn't work in Portuguese because it would sound like Shaia or whatever. So in Portuguese I think Haia is the best option. Eve.b.i (talk) 13:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

PS I should add that the problem is that the word begins with a hard guttural h (het) in Hebrew, and this sound is usually rendered ch in English. The masculine equivalent of this name is Chaim. It means "life". Not sure how that name is written in Portuguese. Eve.b.i (talk) 18:07, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation! I will keep the Portuguese version as Chaia then. BTW, do you know what Chaia means? Editor br (talk) 16:26, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I would keep the Portuguese as Haia (see above - it's a bit more accurate according to Port. pronunciation rules). The name means "life". Jews say "l'chaim" as a toast - which means "to life". The name also has a connotation of "animal", not so much an animal itself as a "coração selvagem," if you see what I mean Eve.b.i (talk) 16:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

PS "chaim" as in l'chaim or in the common Jewish name is the masculine version of the name, just to be clear. Eve.b.i (talk) 16:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant Haia in the first place. I will keep the way it is, and I appologize for asking you the meaning of Haia again. I thought only Chaim would mean "life". Cheers, Editor br (talk) 13:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

date of birth

Google favors the 1920 birth date but there are a lot of mentions of 1925. Anyone got a decent source to decide between the two?Geni 23:56, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It is definitely 1920 as per at least two biographies, Nádia Battella Gotlib's Clarice : uma vida que se conta and Teresa Cristina Montero Ferreira's Eu sou uma pergunta. Eve.b.i (talk) 05:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

near to the wild heart

"In 1944 she published her first novel Perto do Coração Selvagem, translated into English as "Near to the Wild Heart." When the novel was published, many claimed that her stream-of-consciousness writing style was heavily influenced by Virginia Woolf or James Joyce, but she had read neither of these authors."

The last statement cannot be correct: the title "near to the wild heart" is taken from Joyce's Portrait of Artist as a Young Man. The Joyce quote is used as the novel's epigraph. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Writingtablet (talk • contribs) 23:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

That is true but Lispector said that the title and the epigraph were both given to her after she completed the book by her friend the novelist Lúcio Cardoso. Eve.b.i (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Eve, can you trace back the reference that cites this dialogue between Lucio Cardoso and Clarice? Thanks, Editor br (talk) 12:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I find this quote with a date, shortly after the publication of the book, but I have to dig around a bit more to find out where it is from. Hope this helps, though: April 24, 1944 “Parece-me bem pouco o que posso dizer aqui. Descobri essa legenda, o título do livro e o próprio Joyce quando o livro estava bem pronto. Escrevi-o em 8 ou 9 meses, enquanto estudava, trabalhava, e noivava—mas ele não tem influência direta do estudo, do noivado, de Joyce, do trabalho. Escrevi-o há uns dois anos, tateando na escuridão.” Eve.b.i (talk) 18:06, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Here are two more such quotes. I hope they help clarify the matter. In a letter to her sister Tania (see the book Correspondências, published by Rocco) “As críticas em geral não me fazem bem. A do Álvaro Lins … me abateu, e isso foi bom de certo modo. Escrevi para ele que não conhecia Joyce nem Virginia Woolf nem Proust quando fiz o livro, porque o diabo do homem só faltou me chamar ‘representante comercial’ deles.”

In a letter to Lúcio Cardoso, late March 1944, Correspondências, 43. “Esperava que ele dissesse coisas piores, escrevi uma carta para ele, afinal uma carta boba, dizendo que eu não tinha “adotado” Joyce ou Virginia Woolf, que na verdade lera a ambos depois de estar com o livro pronto.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eve.b.i (talk • contribs) 20:33, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Eve, I updated the main article to refer to this citation, better explaining the history behind Joyce's influence. I keep hearing that she was influenced by Joyce and Wolf, so it is nice to show that she already had such writing style even before she first read them. What do you think? Editor br (talk) 16:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I think this is something of a myth. As her subsequent career proves, she was an artist of incredible originality who didn't really need to be "influenced" by anyone else. But once these myths get started they are hard to stop! Eve.b.i (talk) 17:30, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The idea that "artists of incredible originality" don't need to be "influenced" by anyone else is itself a myth; all artists are influenced by other artists. "Good artists copy; great artists steal," as they say. It is no insult to Lispector to point out that she had influences. Languagehat (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Name Lispector

Does anybody know the history of the unusual (and beautiful) name Lispector? It certainly doesn't sound Yiddish, and I've only found (via Google) a few other people who have it. Languagehat (talk) 20:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

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