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First sentence: interdependence and scope
I'm having a real problem with the tail end of the first sentence in this article: "Collectivism is any philosophic, political, religious, economic, or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence of every human being." The interdependence of individuals may be a common reason for holding collectivist views, but it is not the best description of what collectivism is. It seems more direct and accurate to retreat to language of the Merriam-Webster definition discussed here previously, roughly: "...that emphasizes the importance of the collective and tends to analyze issues in those terms." I think the "every human being" wording could also be improved. Collectivism has no intrinsic scope; all collectivism is not about a universal collective. This just goes to show that interdependence is a red herring that is leading the description astray.
As well the list of possible outlook types is getting a bit long, accurate though it may be. I would prefer this for an initial sentence: "Collectivism is any system of thought that emphasizes groups—their identities, goals, rights, outcomes, etc.—over individuals."
USSR and collectivism
How can USSR or the other stalinist states be described as "collectivist" when they were ruled by regimes and crime families unaccountable to and unalterable by the vast majority. These states could be better desrcribed as extreme individualist, sacrificing the rights of all individuals for the privileges of the concentrated few.
Ayn Rand and Ron Paul are referred to as "right-wing libertarians". I changed this to remove "right-wing" for a basis of neutrality (even though Rand did not categorize herself as a libertarian and was fairly critical of the libertarians), and it was reverted seemingly on the basis of an opinion. Point being, many commentators have said that Rand was not right-wing, citing her being in favor of abortion, and being an atheist, and it seems to me that the ones who consider Rand to be right-wing are usually critical of her. Her exact political views don't exactly fit the description "right-wing", except perhaps economically, if you consider favoring capitalism to be a right-wing position, which I do not. Libertarianism doesn't go hand-in-hand with right-wing politics, either, as libertarianism is usually a mix of being in favor of businessman's rights and social rights. --WTF (talk) 19:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. Unless a reliable source can be found that characterizes both Ayn Rand and Ron Paul as "right-wing libertarians", this is original research and violates Wikipedia's OR and POV policy. I will remove it and it should be reinserted only if it is referenced by reliable sources. Please do not revert without doing so. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
"Collectivism is discussed extensively by Objectivists." I took this out of the introduction, because it does not really belong there, if someone wants to add objectivist views of collectivism let it be so elsewhere; but simply stating that objectivism discusses it with no citations and no explanation is not informative. From my point of view obectivists elide collectivism and totalitarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 06:37, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
collectivists think group > individual. socialists want collective ownership of the means of production because socialization of production makes classical liberalism impossible. so, socialists may also be liberal individualists, and when they are are called anarchists; these ideas of collectivism and socialism are not connected in any meaningful way. i'm going to clean the article up appropriately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
- i ended up removing the asinine section on the cold war. collectivism is a far better term to use to describe the soviet and nazi systems than socialism, as no workers ever had ownership of the means of production and minority rights were constantly infringed for the purpose of the greater good, which should not happen under socialism. i removed another section that tried to separate between soviet socialism and collectivism, because it likewise made no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 12:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
- I put for the suggestion that Collectivism is society working together without a central government. The statement "which in practical terms is the government." should be removed as it does not represent collectivism which is a form of people working together without centralized control. Government is a centralized control mechanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government "a government more narrowly refers to the particular executive in control of a state at a given time" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective "A collective is a group of entities that share or are motivated by at least one common issue or interest, or work together to achieve a common objective. Collectives differ from cooperatives in that they are not necessarily focused upon an economic benefit or saving, but can be that as well."