Talk:Cyrus (name)

Cyrus, an Elamite name

I added to the article that the name Cyrus has actually an Elamite etymology, translated as to bestow care. I did not remove the other obsolete theories in the article. Regards. Ellipi (talk) 21:41, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Look, the source you link gives etymological meaning of Kuraš. He gives up to date sources for the claim that "Kuruš is Old Persian" and Schmitt states explicitly "kuruš is Persian". The source you link also says "research reveales some indications toward an Elamite name". You can not read this as "kuruš is from Elamite kuraš". So simple is that. Xashaiar (talk) 04:08, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

One more note: The source Tavernier that I had used, has the following point: ku-ra-aš is ORIGINALLY ELAMITE. He does not look for etymology of OP kuruš. He looks for etymology of Elamite kuraš. He rejects the interpretation of other scholars who look for etymology of Elamite kuraš by looking at etymology of OP kuruš. I think this should not be mentioned in this article, but since you do not wish to collaborate, I have kept Tavernier discussion in this article. Those familiar with languages will see that this is not the topic discussed in this article. Also please read style consistency: if you use the source in the article (the same page) please respect the style of citation,... Xashaiar (talk) 08:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that all suggested etymologies, Elamite or non-Elamite should be mentioned in the article, especially because this article is supposed to do this. But the mainstream etymology must go to the leading paragraph, and should not be hiden in the last paragraph. Nowadays, the mainstream viewpoint is that the name Cyrus has an Elamite etymology, and this is reflected in all updated academic sources. For insance look at the page 48 of Amélie Kuhrt's 2007 work, where it says: ...the name of the great conqueror and founder of the empire, Cyrus II, is almost certainly Elamite ('He who bestows care'/'He (or x) gives fortune'). Ellipi (talk) 14:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

So finally you understood that 1. you falsified a source? 2. you did manage to understand that the source was talking about etymology (please read its difference with "meaning"), 3. But you failed to understand that the source is talking about "Elamite word kurash" and not OP word kurush. 4. Other editors will remove that sentences, because of wp:undue. 5. Please do respect the style of articles. Xashaiar (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

What you are talking about? Tavernier clearly says it is an Elamite name! Ellipi (talk) 15:14, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Where does it say? This is English wikipedia. He states "Elamite Kurash" is in "original form". Thats all. Xashaiar (talk) 15:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah Elamite Kurash, English Cyrus. I do not reject the possibility that Kurush may have been distinct from Kurash, BUT today the mainstream viewpoiint is that Elamite Kurash is the original form. I cited Amélie Kuhrt 2007. Ellipi (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Dispute Tag

According to wikipedia rules, YOU MUST EXPLAIN the reason why you put the tag. This article DOES NOT state that kurush is IRANIAN. it says "CYRUS" is an ENGLISH word COMING from OP kurush. (because Greeks came to know Iranians from Darius the Great era on). If I write "kurush is absolutely IRANIAN" then you can dispute the article. Now what are you disputing? It is laughable. Xashaiar (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

The reason for adding dispute tag is that the article tries to falsify etymology of the name Cyrus. Today, the mainstream viewpoint is that it has an Elamite origin. This is not reflected clearly. Ellipi (talk) 15:27, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I repeat:This article DOES NOT state that kurush is IRANIAN. it says "CYRUS" is an ENGLISH word COMING from OP kurush. (because Greeks came to know Iranians from Darius the Great era on). and the Elamite word kurash has been covered despite the fact that it should not. On the etymology I have presented 5 IE etymological analysis and one Elamite. What else the article should say? Xashaiar (talk) 15:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Good. The question arises here is: Is not the origin of Iranian Kurush, almost certainly Elamite? Ellipi (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

NO OR. What does "almost certainly" mean? According to whom? What do you mean by "Iranian Kurush" has an origin in Elamite? The point that you do not understand is this: a group of people have stated that "kurash is Elamite in origin" and is not a transcription of Iranian kurush. It does not make kurush having origin in Elamite kurash. I have added to this article more than what you asked for!!! I have added to this article that "kurash" is Elamite in origin. (without disputing it!) And the source (tavernier) states this very professionally (which I disagree with, but have added that). Your kuhrt source (which is not that good for linguistic purpose) states "Cyrus had an Elamite name" which according to my understanding means "Cyrus name as attested by his Elamite records is almost certainly Elamite". I have added to the article more than what you ask for: I am saying according to the good argument of Tvernier kurash is Elamite. Should I remove most of it? Xashaiar (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Pardon for interruption . But I agree with Xashaiar in that the source does not certainly shows that the name Cyrus has Elamite origin . Is certainly Persian Kurush and Elamite Kurash one name ? Does the source says that and isn't it WP:SYNTHESIS ? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 15:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Tavernier states: It is much more to be expected that the Persians remodeled an in their eyes strange form Kurash, (Iranian has no nominatives in /ash/) to Kurush. (WP:UNDUE?, WP:FRINGE?) Ellipi (talk) 16:10, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

If the name has Elamite etymology , that is not equal to that it's meaning is the same in Elamate : as an example , the word bear in English means the famous mammal , but the etymology of the word is Proto-Germanic ^beron "the brown one" and that does not means every time we use the word bear , we mean the brown one , because at least many other animals are brown and many bears are white or black and so on .... --Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:17, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

A better example: Persian names such as: Emâm, Hoseyn, Ali, Mohammad, etc, all have Arabic origins: Imâm, 7usayn, 3ali, Mu7ammad etc. Ellipi (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

And about the Tavernier text , in that very page there many other opinions and names of Hoffmann, Mayrhofer, Schmitt ,Werba, Skalmowski and etc is given for alternative theories . Plus the sentence "the Persians remodeled" , is not equal to sentence "The name Cyrus is certainly Elamite"! That's an understanding of that sentence , and not the exact text .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:27, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

There are some contradicting Iranian and Indian theories. But it is not only Tavernier who believes it is an Elamite name. Regards. Ellipi (talk) 16:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

As stated above, it would be biased to claim it is only Tavernier who has found an Elamite origin for the name Cyrus. The Elamite origin of the name has been pointed out for decades; but in recent decades it has taken prominence among the scholars, for which I cited Amélie Kuhrt 2007 as an example. Stronach (1997) stated that: ...the difficulty of finding anything other than Elamite origin for the name Cyrus has been a subject of debate for close to a century. The root of the name Cyrus is connected with Elamite verb kur, meaning to bestow care (like a shepherd, prophet [1]). Ellipi (talk) 21:41, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Look, this is wp:synth: to relate English Cyrus to Elamite Kurash.Xashaiar (talk) 09:56, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

On a second thought, I added the translation you insist on. Xashaiar (talk) 10:03, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no agreement among scholars that OP Kurush had a meaning; most scholars say it was just the Persian spelling of the Elamite Kurash. Moreover, Cyrus never calls himself Kurush. His name according to his Cylender was the Elamite form of Kurash. Ellipi (talk) 11:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Please avoid OR. 1. If "There is no agreement among scholars that OP Kurush had a meaning" so what are all those sources that the article provides? 2. I do not care that Cyrus called himself Kurash when writing in Elamite (which he had to, if he was not stupid), I do care that Cyrus comes from Kurush. 3. Your POV pushing is something strange, Darius whose name is fully Iranian calls most of the time himself in Elamite and Aramaic. Xashaiar (talk) 11:48, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

1) Even if Kurush had an Iranian meaning, still it could not change the fact that it was an affectionate form of the Elamite Kurash, which has been attested thousands of years before CyrusII existed. (actually Kurush appeared after Cyrus, under Darius!)

2) But you don't care that Kurush comes from Kurash?!

3) So what? Darius' name has an Iranian origin. Ellipi (talk) 12:37, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Xashaiar, please do not write complete words with capital letters as they symbolize yelling. If you want to emphasize a word, consider using bold, italic or underline . Let's remember to remain civil. warrior4321 23:39, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Cyrus the Great in Isaiah 44:28

I'm curious about the relationship of the word used in Isaiah 44:28, the Hebrew word "kowresh", which is used in prophetic reference to Cyrus's role in returning the exiled Jews to Jerusalem. How does this Hebrew name, and it's definition Cyrus = "posses thou the furnace" compare to the definitions in the ancient Persian language, e.g. what this article states: "kuruš" has been interpreted in various forms from "the sun", "like sun", "young", "hero" to "humiliator of the enemy in verbal contest" and the Elamite "kuraš" has been translated as one "who bestows care".

Are the words in the two ancient languages related? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MathInclined (talk • contribs) 06:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

new link

I have added a See also link to the name Kira, which I found to refer here. As The authors of this page are clearly well informed, I hope you would take a look and improve the page on Kira (given name) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.100.29.229 (talk) 15:26, 4 February 2010 (UTC)