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Fair use rationale for Image:Delcevo od kejot.jpg

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BetacommandBot 08:45, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No move. No consensus that the new forms are more common or otherwise preferable.Cúchullain t/c 14:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

– Diacritic signs are not used by the Government in Macedonia. They use diagraphs. The passport/identity card/driving license naming uses: sh for š, ch for č, dzh for dž, zh for ž, kj for ḱ, gj for ĝ, lj while the State Statistical Office use the same plus ts for c (the usage of ts for c requires further documentation). Macedonicus (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If these are indeed the official names then I support the move.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Whether this is official or not, I think we should choose whichever version is more commonly used. If the government has indeed stopped using diacritics, which I hope is not the case since diacritics make words more visually pleasing at least to me, that doesn't necessarily mean that we should change the article names. I'd say a solid majority of road signs in the country still spell place-names with the diacritics. --Local hero talk 22:02, 14 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
... therefore, I oppose since I don't think this transition has occurred. --Local hero talk 04:06, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As far as the actual proposal, rightly or wrongly English-language sources are still using the old Yugoslav romanization of Macedonian:

"To enter Bulgaria from Berovo, head 25km north to Delčevo (120MKD, three daily buses). Crossing from Delčevo to the yeah-baby university town of Blagoevgrad requires a taxi (€25)." Marika McAdam Lonely Planet Western Balkans 2009 Page 325

I'd like to see some more evidence, less edit-warring, and more consensus at WikiProject Macedonia and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Cyrillic) before a RM. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:34, 16 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If/when someone else nominates them, I'll participate in the RMs. GoodDay (talk) 03:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If/when you nominate them, be sure to include Zoë Wanamaker. HandsomeFella (talk) 08:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will. GoodDay (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, I'd like to see more citations about this new transliteration scheme. Surely it's been discussed in Macedonian media, or perhaps a law was passed? Can you provide such citations, in English or in Macedonian? Is there a plan to redo road signs on major highways, is there any continuing controversy or debate within the country? Whatever the Macedonian government and people decide, the world will surely eventually follow, although it may take a bit of wait-and-see (as was the case, for instance, with Indian city names like Kolkata), and it may be perfectly sensible to use a diacritic-less transliteration from Cyrillic to Latin alphabet (after all, we already do this for Russian). On the other hand, I would worry that perhaps this new transliteration scheme might not be a "done deal"; maybe it is just a proposal, and one faction pushing for this change is simply trying to use Wikipedia as a platform to promote this change? (I am thinking, for instance, of the periodic attempts to rename the Czech Republic article to Czechia). Can you provide citations to reassure us? I oppose for now, but we could perhaps revisit the issue later. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: sensible approach. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support & Comment: I would like to explain some things. The road signs that use Yugoslav transcription are the old road signs - the new ones use diagraphs. Second of all, those English travel websites are copying information from here and they see "Delčevo" so it's likely for them to write "Delčevo" instead of "Delchevo". People are using Wikipedia more than we all think so that is why we need to provide accurate information. Indeed, the English alphabet does not use diacritics and the transliteration issue is appearing at the English Wikipedia only. Look how the French transliterate the Macedonian names without asking for a law for transliteration (Deltchevo). I understand that the Macedonian government haven't come up with official law for transliteration, but in case like this, it's better to respect the official documents issued by the government which use diagraphs for the Macedonian names both in passports, road signs and english version of the websites. In my ID card there is "Скопjе - Чаир" or "Skopje - Chair" (not Čair). For the lovers of the visual appearance of the diacritics - that's not a good excuse for leaving them in usage. Another thing that you should all consider is, currently the Macedonian cyrillic alphabet is the only non-English alphabet romanized with diacritics, every other cyrillic alphabet is romanized with diagraphs (Serbian is exception because Serbia is using two official scripts - Cyrillic and Latin which is not the case with Macedonia). Macedonicus (talk) 11:26, 18 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Macedonicus, first re. strikethrough above: you cannot support your own nomination, please remove. Otherwise, interesting information, please upload some new road-signs to wiki commons. And quite happily waiting for presentation of actual evidence on WT:CYR. No one opposes a change to a Bulgarian-like transliteration system if you can present evidence, so present evidence. Cheers. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. For English-language GBooks post 2000, the traditional system is more common across the board, typically by a factor of four or five. The latest travel book, published in 2010, uses the traditional system. That's as up-to-date as it gets. What system the government uses for ID cards and driver's licenses has nothing to do with anything. Kauffner (talk) 07:11, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't you think that the travel books look for information here on Wikipedia? So when the reader goes to the website of the Municipality of Kochani he is confused because he seen "Kočani" at Wikipedia/TravelGuide and Kochani at the genuine web site? That's exactly why I suggested this, Wikipedia has huge influence over other site (even Google Maps used to copy information from here) and what government uses for ID cards and naming places is exactly what it counts. I'm 100% sure that if Wikipedia had the names with diagraphs, the travel books would copy that information. Once again, that traditional system is not part of Macedonia anymore. That system was in force when Macedonia was part of Yugoslavia and preset at the old ID cards and passports. According to you, Wikipedia shouldn't listen to the government for transliteration? If that's the case, let's change the naming to the Bulgarian, Russian, Greek and other diagraph-transliteration countries to the scientific one. Macedonicus (talk) 11:49, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
GeoNames gives Delčevo, Kočani, etc. This site usually gives all kinds of variants. But for these towns, just one spelling is given. So I assume the traditional spellings are still official. I sincerely hope that travel book authors do not copy spellings from Wiki, but rather have direct access to authoritative sources like GeoNames, [http://www.amazon.com/Times-Comprehensive-Atlas-World-Edition/dp/0007419139/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337632639&sr=8-1 The Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World], Oxford's [http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-World-Edition-Oxford-University/dp/0199829950/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1337632639&sr=8-5 Atlas of the World], or [http://www.amazon.com/Merriam-Websters-Geographical-Dictionary-Merriam-Webster/dp/B001NGNQ2O/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337632818&sr=1-1 Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary]. Kauffner (talk) 21:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would hope that travel books would be written by people who actually travel to a place, talk to local people and look at local signs, and extensively study the actual "facts on the ground" and become experts. I hope no one is writing a travel book by staying at home and using only Wikipedia as a source. Wikipedia does not promote or advocate any change, it takes note of it after it has already taken place or well underway. That might already be the case, but we need a bit more documentation. But in any case, your argument above simply doesn't reflect what Wikipedia does and what Wikipedia is. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 21:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These newer road signs use the traditional transliteration: [1], [2], [3]. --Local hero talk 20:02, 21 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually those are older. Newer road signs don't use diacritics. The signs on the road Kumanovo-Tabanovce (released in September, 2011) are without diacritics. For example, Rečica is now spelled as Recica. New Road Sign Macedonicus (talk) 02:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually a problem, because it really ought to be Rechica if the transliteration proposed in this move request was being used. Google Maps seems to use Rechica. This makes it look like the transliteration situation is still in a state of flux. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 03:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't it be Rechitsa? No properly developed transliteration system would use the same symbol for two completely different letters ч and ц? This suggests to me that it is too early to determine what any new 'official' system will require, and in the meantime leave the titles unchanged. Oppose. Anyway Čair → Chair? Really? - Sussexonian (talk) 18:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I would not favour a reversal to the old transliteration system. The question, how has the new system come into being, is secondary. What matters is that there is a new practice of transliteration with a new system officially used by government and local authorities alike. Whether that is the result of one single decision or a series of particular decisions, and whether these are publicly available and quotable is quite irrelevant I reckon. The new practice is here, and we better accept that. As for the inconsistency in rendering Речица as Recica rather than Rechica on that road sign, the experience of other countries that have recently made similar changes in their Romanization systems (like Russia, Ukraine and Bulgaria) testify that errors inevitably occur in such large scale changes, which however is no reason to question the new systems. Apcbg (talk) 12:28, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see evidence of large-scale changes. The vast majority, perhaps all, of the signs referring to Kičevo still spell it that way. There is not, currently, a mass project to remove all of the old road signs and replace them with ones using a different transliteration system.
And the signs in the links I made above are from 2010, so the "old" system was in use until at most 2 years ago. --Local hero talk 14:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Road signs are being replaced as the roads are being repaired or new ones are built. That process is very slow in Macedonia but hey, there are old road signs in Bulgaria aswell with the scientific transliteration, it's just they are lesser than those in Macedonia. When the corridor X is repaired, new road signs will be placed. And why are the road-signs most important "source" for the transliteration? We all know that road-signs are placed from different firms for every road and not all are always correct. It's a global issue, not only in Macedonia. Macedonicus (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quite so. It is large scale due to the vast number of road signs and street names involved, which means it takes time, needs money, and in addition to the central state agencies is carried out by a number of local authorities too. It's easier with the ID documents and still easier with electronic data bases and web sites. And yes there are some old road signs yet to be replaced in Bulgaria, and some old street name signs in downtown Sofia too, even though their replacement was approved and started back in 2006. So what? In no instance whatsever is an application of the new system replaced by one of the old system. Apcbg (talk) 16:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These moves first started Aug 2011, despite the fact that many editors (including myself) are evidently sympathetic to adopting the new system if it is official and widespread, there is still no sourced information either on Talk:Romanization of Macedonian, WT:CYR or here. Saying that "there are no official sources" doesn't help. If it's official there are. Please present them. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"If it's official there are." Sounds logical but that's not necessarily the way authorities operate. The widespread practice is a fact, and we ought to be guided by that. As for the relevant official decision (or decisions), as I pointed out at WT:CYR, that (or those) may or may not have been publicised. That said, I suppose that there would be a relevant instruction at the offices (or police stations) issuing ID cards and passports, possibly part of the forms filed when applying for such documents. Perhaps Macedonicus could scan and upload here a copy, which would do I reckon. Best, Apcbg (talk) 08:33, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Are there no news media articles that could be cited, even if only in Macedonian? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there are, see the extensive article Како да се латинизира кирилицата (How to Romanize the Cyrillic Alphabet) by Z. Georgievski, published in the Skopje Globus Weekly of 19 August 2008. Apcbg (talk) 10:11, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That article is from 2008, and (per Google Translate) refers to a "proposal" by the Совет за македонски јазик that is applicable only to personal names. Later in the article there is some commentary that the time will soon come to discuss how to render place names in the Latin alphabet. So that seems to be an outdated reference which doesn't really serve as a citation to support these moves, because it seems to date from the beginning of the process. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The article presents a number of comments made by different linguists, mentioning also proposals that were not adopted. However, the new transliteration in the passports was a fact already, with one of the comments complaining about the new spelling of some particular name.
It would seem that the new Romanization system for Macedonian is the ICAO DOC 9303 standard introduced in 2004 as an amendment to the Passports Law (Article 28). Hope this helps. Apcbg (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hold on a second... that document is a very specifically a standard for encoding names on passports, not a general transliteration standard. Those are domain-specific requirements: even Latin-alphabet letters are "transliterated" to remove diacritics (for instance German ä becomes ae, see Appendix 9 on page IV-48). If, say, Croatia adopted this international standard for its passports, it does not follow that they would remove č š ž from their road signs (I am pretty sure they haven't done so). And German road signs still say Köln, not Koeln.[4] So this really isn't what we're looking for. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
mk:Транслитерација на македонското писмо has a table for:
  • Училишно (Ж becomes Ž) - [2][3][4] footnotes [1] Училишна книга од прво одделение, [2] Victor Friedman, "Macedonian", in: B. Comrie (ed.), The Slavonic Languages, [3] Читаме и пишуваме латиница, училишна Книга
  • ISO9 (Ж becomes Ž) - [4] Macedonian Latin alphabet, Pravopis na makedonskiot literaturen jazik, B. Vidoeski, T. Dimitrovski, K. Koneski, K. Tošev, R. Ugrinova Skalovska- Prosvetno delo Skopje, 1970, p.99
  • Документација (Ж becomes Zh)- [5] Се користи за документи во меѓународна употреба

From the sources given it appears that Училишно/ISO9 (Ж becomes Ž) is still in majority use according to the editors on mk.wp. while Документација (Ж becomes Zh) is only used for e.g. passports. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:24, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

copying this to WT:CYR. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:25, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a source, and from sources published in 1970 (Vidoeski et al.) and 1993 (Friedman, second edition 2003) it could hardly 'appear' what "is still in majority use" in 2012. Apcbg (talk) 05:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Born2cycle, which particular section in WP:USEENGLISH relates to whether to use the common/old or possibly new romanization of Macedonian? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
They are in use, please review your vote. Here are examples of their wide usage: ID cards, driving license, official web sites of the Municipalities (Cities), Macedonian's Government publications in English (1, 2, 3) - page 54 GIS, partially new road signs, new vehicle license code for Shtip (former code ŠT, new code ST which shows that diacritics are out of usage), the English version of the official website of the City of Skopje and Publication about the natural change in population in the Republic of Macedonia (first quarter of 2012) - page 3 where we can see information about the population in the municipalities:

NUMBER OF INHABITANTS (Census 2002) 

   Skopje - 506 926
   Aerodrom - 72 009
   Butel - 36 154
   Gazi Baba - 72 617
   Gjorche Petrov - 41 634
   Karposh - 59 666
   Kisela Voda - 57 236
   Saraj - 35 408
   Centar - 45 412
   Chair - 64 773
   Shuto Orizari - 22 017

Macedonicus (talk) 22:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(random break for ease of editing)

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  • GSearch ["Delcevo" site:.mk] 63,200 / "Delcevo" site:.mk -Делчево 46,200
  • GSearch ["Delčevo" site:.mk] 2,750 / "Delčevo" site:.mk -Делчево 2,700
  • GSearch ["Delchevo" site:.mk] 19,200 / "Delchevo" site:.mk -Делчево 14,200

The above search shows a significant number of official websites still using the old uchilishno or school system used in Lonely Planet and western publications. For example:

26 May 2011 We wish to inform that the defect of the weighing platform at the Delčevo border crossing point has been repaired and the working activities at ...

For better or worse Macedonian Customs customs.gov.mk is still issuing press releases using the old system, which indicates that there has been no systematic government instruction to move to the new system. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:11, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are drawing wrong conclusions from your statistics, which shows (as I pointed out above) a clear dominance of 'Delchevo' over 'Delčevo'. As for 'Delcevo', that's anything but the school system according to which 'Delcevo'='Делцево' not 'Делчево'. Apcbg (talk) 08:56, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apcbg, I said nothing about 'Delcevo', obviously 'Delcevo'='Делцево' not 'Делчево', but please read what I said again, I said "The above search shows a significant number of official websites still using the old uchilishno or school system used in Lonely Planet and western publications" Lonely Planet uses the old uchilishno or school system 'Delčevo,' as mentioned above and put in a text box. I suppose the above was open to misreading if you hadn't noticed the Lonely Planet box above, but all the same please read more carefully. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The most likely reason for the prevalence of "Delcevo" is that "č" is not as readily available to type as "c" is. --Local hero talk 23:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, I have no idea, but the Delčevo example of Macedonian customs and Lonely Planet are what I was pointing out. They are in the minority in .mk usage, but still the common usage in English sources. My main point was about the customs, and lack of any official/government direction. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But Lonely planet and Macedonian customs can't be more relevant than the sources I presented. Now I think that it doesn't matter how much evidence of this new system I will provide, you will still find a way to keep the scientific one for unknown reasons to me. Macedonicus (talk) 12:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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