Talk:Dendi (province)

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Requested move 21 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Dendi (province) be renamed and moved to Songhai Kingdom.

result:
See issues below that appear to need more discussion, and perhaps merging? so this ends in no consensus. As is usual with no-consensus outcomes, arguments can be strengthened and another attempt can be made in a few months to rename this page if found necessary and wanted. Kudos to all editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 00:58, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Dendi (province) → Songhai Kingdom – I propose the name be changed to "Songhai Kingdom" instead of Dendi Kingdom. This kingdom was established in the Songhai Empire's eastern province which was called "Dendi" after its Invasion not the name of the newly established kingdom. Again from this article, it was stated (i changed it) the kindom was founded by the Dendi people which doesn't make sense becase from other articles on Wikipedia, it was stated that the kingdom was established by the defeated Songhai Askia dynasty who were "Songhai proper". That region in Niger till this day is referred to as "Soney" (Songhay). This can be found in the historical dictionary of Niger in google books. The kingdom was not founded by the Dendi people who are a subgroup of the Songhay. Again, the word "Songhai" is the name of the ruling caste and a subgroup in the broader ""Songhai group"" from which the empire got it's name and these are the nobles that moved and founded this kingdom not the Dendi people. In most books this kingdom wasn't even referred to as Dendi Kingdom but "defeated Songhai Empire" (in other words, the Empire continued to exist but with a smaller territory until it was defeated by the french in 1901). Ibdawud (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). ─ The Aafī ^{^(talk)} 23:42, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

- The article shows that the kingdom is specifically called the "Dendi Kingdom". This is also shown in the infobox. I don't see any mention in the article that the kingdom is also known as the "Songhai Kingdom". Seventyfiveyears (talk) 20:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seventyfiveyears I don't think you understood what I was trying to explain. Now let's focus on the Refs, only one or two of the refs called this kingdom "Dendi" even with that it had the word Songhai in a bracket. All I'm trying to say is, the Dendi was a province of the Songhai Empire until the Invasion by Morroco; it then became the only province left and that was where all the Songhai Nobles fled to. They called it Songhai not Dendi. Most of the books I've read didn't even separate this to create another kingdom. This was just referred to as defeated Songhai Empire until the the french arrived. Infact in one of the sources stated by the worldstatesmen...

End of the Songhay Empire: The Songhay empire grew out of a polity that was formed in the Dendi region of present-day Niger. This polity flourished in present-day Mali and replaced the Mali empire as the major West Sudanese power; its capital was Gao. After being vanquished by incursions from Morocco, the Songhay state withdrew to its original location in the Dendi region, and is thenceforth often referred to as Dendi; but there is a continuity of rule, symbolized by continuing to use the Songhay name and the royal style askya. In addition to this remnant Songhay state, this record contains a small group of break-off polities.

It can be seen clearly it was referred to as the Songhai grew in its original location of Dendi not the other way round. My other proposal is this should be merged with the Somghai Empire article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ibdawud (talk • contribs)

@Ibdawud: Yes, Dendi was once part of the Songhai Empire. However, even though the Dendi Kingdom was founded by the Songhai people, it was later then conquered by the French in 1901. Seventyfiveyears (talk) 01:21, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said on the page Talk:Songhai Empire, I am opposed to merging this page with Songhai Empire, by analogy with the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire. The exact term "Dendi Kingdom" does not seem to be used often in the published literature, so renaming this page might be a reasonable course of action if a better name can be found. "Songhai Kingdom" is inappropriate as that name is typically used interchangeably with "Songhai Empire". Ornithopsis (talk) 07:09, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This topic is only tangential to my areas of interest, so I'm not sure that I have an opinion here, but I do agree with the point raised above that unless there's a fairly systematic terminology of "Songhai Empire" vs "Songhai Kingdom" in reliable sources, this is going to encourage confusion among general readers and people may frequently mislink to one or the other. As it is, this proposal doesn't refer to how the topic is defined in reliable sources, as per WP:TITLE. This looks a bit like WP:OR.

It would also help if the scope of the article could be clarified before you move the article, because it's been changed prior to this proposal and it does make a difference: is it about the region which still exists today, or is it about the successor state to the Songhai Empire? If it's the region, it makes more sense to move it to "Dendi (region)" or "Dendi (West Africa)".

If it's the state then, for what it's worth, at least some sources do refer to this state as "Dendi": e.g. several Oxford Publications explicitly use the name "Dendi Kingdom" or "Kingdom of Dendi" (see "Songhai Empire" entry in A Dictionary of African Politics, 2019, and "Songhay, Empire of" entry in Dynasties of the World (2 ed.), 2014), and Lanciné Kaba refers to the polity as simply "Dendi" (see "Archers, Musketeers, and Mosquitoes: The Moroccan Invasion of the Sudan and the Songhay Resistance (1591–1612)", The Journal of African History 22 (4), 1981). Google has its limits so I couldn't verify other sources, but some less clearly reliable sources also use the name "Dendi (kingdom): e.g. this book aimed at young readers, and these websites: [1], [2]. I hope some of that is helpful to consider. Cheers, R Prazeres (talk) 16:43, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ornithopsis: What about

Songhai Empire in Lulami
Songhai Kingdom (Lulami)
Songhai Empire (Lulami)
Songhai Empire (diminished)
Songhai Kingdom (diminished)

Nb; Lulami was the new capital which according to books it was located at the present town of Say, before the town was fulanized by the Fulani marabout Alfa Mohamed Diobo Ibdawud (talk) 11:22, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just came by the same topic on de.wiki de:Dendi (Westafrika). This actually was more accurate. The dendi was referred to as a Province of the Songhai Empire. Whiles the information about this kingdom was explained in the main article of the (de. Songhai Empire) Ibdawud (talk) 14:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.