Talk:Edward Bury

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Edward Bury on the Lickey 1841

There is a story Edward Bury took a locomotive to the Lickey Incline to demonstrate his locomotive was the equal of the Norris 4-2-0 Type A Extra's; but in the event tests left Bury's locomotive with a very poor showing. I have respected the good faith reversion of [1] with the comment Birmingham and Gloucester Railway: Bury's "challenge" is fictitious (invented by Clement Stretton) so I have deleted this sentence; however I have not found any source for the rejection. But I am quite prepared to accept this is yet another legend relating to the Norris locomotives or the Birmingham and Gloucester Railway (Did it inspire Awdry for Thomas the Tank?). But I would like source(s) for Stretton's allegedly false claims. From sources available to me are:

Stretton, Clement Edwin (1903). The Locomotive Engine and Its Development: A popular treatise on the gradual improvements made in railway engines between 1803 and 1903 (6 ed.). London: Crosby Lockwood. pp. 80–83. OCLC 265878314.

Strettons account is available on the online on the link above.

Billington, Neville; Sheffield, Warwick (2010). The Wrangler Who Went to the Railway: The Story of the Life and Death of William Creuze BA. Bromsgrove: Came Hundred Publishing. p. 18. OCLC 652085463. This goes a long way to explain Bury's bad day on the incline in 1841

Billington alludes to the event but I've not found it in the rest of the book (This may be explained in his books Flint and Stone or McDonnell of the Mechanicals or it may be discovered the event was made up and it slipped through. It is strictly not with the scope of this book and I have not seen the others.

Hunt, David (1997). American Locomotives of the Midland Railway. Midland Record. Vol. no. 1 Supplement. Didcot: Wild Swan Publications. ISBN 1874103410. OCLC 41311220. {{cite book}}: |volume= has extra text (help)

I have not been able to locate this event in this book. Hunt has done some fairly detailed analysis

Long, P. J.; Awdry, W. V. (1987). The Birmingham and Gloucester Railway. Gloucester: Alan Sutton. pp. 209–211, 304–305. ISBN 0862993296. OCLC 18588406. OL 2468738M.

Awdry/Long describe the event on 3 August 1841. On P.304 Sources are claimed as follows: "Company Minutes (PRO RAIL 37/16 M 367) and letter written by Captain W. S. Morsoom to William Norris after the trial of engines. The letter is quoted by Mr. P. C. Dewhurst in his paper before the Newcomen Society. ('Norris Locomotives in England' p.26)"

Maggs, Colin G. (2013) [1986]. The Birmingham to Gloucester Line (2 ed.). Stroud, United Kingdom: Amberley. ISBN 9781445606996. OCLC 855200150.

Event not present in book as far as I can tell.

@Hyjack7: Because of the apparent strength of the Long/Awdry sources can I ask for a source from you of where Stretton's claim is false. (I have not seen the original sources, and I would like to checkout Dewhurst presentations to the Newcomen and to the Civil Engineers at some point, but I would like a specific source rebutting Stretton' claim). Thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about the specific claim in question, but recognized the name Clement Stretton. It seems he has a reputation among British railway historians as being an utterly unreliable source because he so often simply made stuff up. Here is the discussion where I learned of his reputation. Of course this particular case may be a true story based on the Awdry/Long source, which does not appear to be contaminated by Stretton. Apologies if you were already aware of Stretton's reputation. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 01:32, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Colin Douglas Howell Thankyou for that. The reference gives enough to be wary of Stretton, and his unreliablity on Bury is certainly to be of note. As he seems walso to have falsified supporting letter etc. these is every possibility Awdry (and perhaps even P. C. Dewhurst) may have been "caught out". If anyone has anything specific please let me know. thankyou. Djm-leighpark (talk) 02:47, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On a quick review I notice I have been having for some time difficulty reconciling certain Stretton's claims about Forrester's Swiftsure which apparently contradict other sources. Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:41, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone interested I've started an article on the man: Clement E. Stretton ! Still need to figure this Lickey event out though. Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:31, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I also note the basics of the 1841 event are covered in (Jack,2001,p50); allbeit not as flowery as Long/Awdry; and from a different angle; but certainly putting Edward Bury, No. 65, and Philadelphia on comparison trials on the Incline.Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:11, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Possible copyvio vs Jack

Having just obtained a ~~load~~library loan of (Jack,2001) I'm a little concerned there just may just be copyvio's from that source at sentence level, and because of some wording used. It's not absolute but I'd feel happier with some re-wording.Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:45, 23 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've only just seen this discussion. I wrote an article 'Edward Bury and the Lickey Incline' which appeared in the L&NWR Society's Journal in March, 2005 (vol 4, no 8, pp312-4) which sets out the facts, so far as I could discover them, from the B&GR and L&BR records now held at Kew.

As for Stretton, my article 'Clement Edwin Stretton - Railway Historian?' was in Railway Archive no 18 (18th March 2008, pp66-70) and can be seen on the LNWR History Group website under 'Articles'. I hope this helps. Harry Jack Hyjack7 (talk) 4 October 2020 —Preceding undated comment added 17:52, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Harry. I'm really tied up in Real Life (RL) at the moment but I'm really looking forward to seeking that out and going over that in depth. As you did the original research is likely best I or someone else reviews it and makes the article updates (though if you think anything is wrong feel free to shout as I'm not always the greatest Wikipedia editor ... my English essays were typically hovering around 7/10). Thanks again. Djm-leighpark (talk) 18:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]