Talk:Edward King-Harman

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List of Carthusians ... states[edit]

KING-HARMAN, Lawrence William, 1877. Son of Colonel E. R. King-Harman, M.P., of Rockingham, Co. Roscommon. b. 1863.

This is slightly in conflict with the 1864 marriage date, though the author could be incorrect. Citations of marriage required. If the younger son took the baronetcy, this child presumably is the elder and died prior to his grandfather. -- billinghurst (talk) 11:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep the cartridge in the rifle[edit]

King-Harman said "Keep the cartridge in the rifle". Do you have an opinion on what he meant ? When I created the article, it appeared to me he was advising Unionists to keep the gun loaded i..e. remain armed. To take the cartridge out of the rifle in contrast means to disarm. To fire off the cartridge indiscriminately means to waste ammunition which may still be needed for more serious purpose. This was about as far as he could go as a constitutional MP but one who who aggressively opposed any loss of power by Unionists in Ireland. The article has now been changed to represent these words as "cooling" instead. If you follow the reference, Healy actually described Northcote's as "gave Orangemen the cooling advice, "Don't fire off your guns in the gaiety of your hearts."" - he merely states what King-Harman said without comment. In fact, I believe Healy was being ironic in describing Northcote's words as "cooling', not literal. In any case, the refence as it stands in the article is misleading. I think far from being cooling, King-Harman's words were militant. What do you think ? regards, Rod Rcbutcher (talk) 11:43, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

above comment moved from User talk:BrownHairedGirl.

It seems to me that Healey's comments apply the word "cooling" to Northcote's comments, not to King-Harman's.

I would not be surprised at Healy being ironic; it fits what I know of his style. However, irony is not always reliably detected in point after the passage of a century, and I am very wary of placing any interpretation on Healy's words, because that seems to me a little too close to original research. Similarly, I think it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia editors to make their own interpretation of King-Harman's comments.

I am sure that the change by Motrmit was done in good faith, with out any attempt to apply a novel interpretation ... but I think it was mistaken. So I suggest simply removing the word "cooling". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:40, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The quote was originally presented without context, giving the impression that he was advocating militancy. This appeared very misleading, but is now revealed above to have been the deliberate intent of the author. Searching for a reference for the quote showed a context in which the advice was part of a set of speeches to calm down tensions. King-Harman had been a Home Ruler and had represented a seat in Dublin, and he continued as a constitutional politician. No one can read the mind of a dead man, but if there is a clear history of K-H issuing rabble-rousing calls to arms against his old friends, then that would change the context to support the quote as militant. Otherwise the quote is ambiguous, but its use out of context looks like the sort of teenage "look what the bastard said" attack that we are all too familiar with. Anyway it's Irish politics in which one dabbles at one's peril so its anybody's guess. Motmit (talk) 14:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed "cooling" from the quote, as the reference doesn't include it. Rcbutcher (talk) 15:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may be right, Motmit, but I think it's also reasonable to interpret Healy's comments as a contrast to Northcote's comments. I'm not sure which interpretation seems more likely to me, and I'd prefer to leave the meaning ambiguous than to apply a single interpretation based on a source capable of being read in a difft direction. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motmit, I take it you are warning that we need to avoid anything that could appear as if we are putting our own interpretation on anything, we need to either quote only experts' opinions or make it clear we are quoting opinions held by people at the time. Correct ? I realise now that King-Harman's alleged statement could be seen as ambiguous (he was a politician !) - your latest reference to O'Connor in Hansard is good - it makes it clear that the republican side chose to interpret the words as "imflamatory", whether or not they were intended as such. Have I got the point ? Futher point - King-Harman was a Colonel - he would have been well aware of the military meaning of a term like "keep the cartridge in the rifle". But I assume we still can't use this to apply meaning to his words - in theory he could have meant to say "don't start shooting" or suchlike. ?? Rcbutcher (talk) 05:58, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]