Talk:English Travellers
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Source
[edit]What is the reliable source that the term "English Travellers" is in common used? --PBS (talk) 07:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Mainstream news media are now using it as a politically correct term instead of gypsies. It took me a while to figure out that it was not a group of vacationers from Essex who stole the £3m two-tonne Henry Moore sculpture. See http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/may/17/henry-moore-sculpture-theft-reclining-figure —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.100.162.63 (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- But it does not say English travalllers they could just as easily be Irish travallers who live in Essex. --PBS (talk) 11:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
From the history the comment when removing the {{prod}} [1]
- 02:57, 17 May 2009 DGG("Travellers" is the standard English word in England for those in England; how the phrase should read needs discussion)
If so what are your reliable sources that define the different meanings of "English Traveller" which are used as bullet points in the dab page? --PBS (talk) 11:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- as I see it, English is used here as an adjective, to mean the Travellers of various origins found in England. There may well be some ambiguity, and there is probably a discussion needed here, not just simple disam. DGG (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- What are your sources for stating that "English is used here as an adjective, to mean the Travellers of various origins found in England"? --PBS (talk) 16:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- as I see it, English is used here as an adjective, to mean the Travellers of various origins found in England. There may well be some ambiguity, and there is probably a discussion needed here, not just simple disam. DGG (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
English Travellers of Texas self-published sources?
[edit]We've been reading through the pages mentioning English Travellers (of Texas) and digging around for more sources on the subject, and we've noticed that there aren't very many. I am unsure whether https://englishtravellers.com would be considered a self-published source. I see no reason to doubt the reliability of the information on the site, though I would like to request more reliable sources on the subject of the English Travellers so that the information that is currently up on the website and on Wikipedia can be verified, and so that a proper page can be made about them. Please see Wikipedia:Reliable sources for information on what is and isn't considered a reliable source.
We've also been trying to find information about the origins of English Travellers as a distinct ethnic group so it could be put on a page for English Travellers, with little success. Genealogy information is not needed for this. Alongside that, we're also trying to figure out whether or not the English Travellers should be categorized as a subgroup of English ethnicity on the List of contemporary ethnic groups, though that's a whole other set of issues. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 06:30, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ah this seems to be a common problem with them as they have historically been very private. You see them pop up in court cases and local police reports. English Traveller Killed or how even major reporters cannot find information on them like here https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/07/05/sc-irish-travelers-linked-1-million-murder-hire-scheme-texas/759802002/ Here is a very relevant quote "In court, the Bucklands described themselves as "English Travelers." That class of Travelers is apparently neither large nor well-known. The State was unable to learn details about that group." I have been looking into these groups for years and I personally think its merely an overflow group of Irish Travellers as they run the same scams like painting and such, per my law enforcement capacity. That being said they have been in the Grimes county area for generations and groups of them range from Harris County to Dallas. I am not sure what we can do to come up with more information. The website for me would be enough and I would treat it no different than a Indian Tribe website would be treated for information about said tribe. I would also add if we do start a group page on adding a warning for dealing with them as they are know to be violent when confronted and run multiple scams on the elderly much like the Irish Travellers. Super (talk) 01:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, we'd rather not listen to a racist cop. From what we've read, such perceptions of Travellers as vagrant criminals are incredibly unfair, racism against the in Europe (along with racism against similar groups such as Roma, Sinti, and Yenish) has been well-documented and typically relies on such tropes despite evidence to the contrary, and that also seems to be the case in America, though the Roma and Traveller populations here are far less visible than in Europe, especially English Travellers and Highland Travellers. It would make sense to treat the website similarly to a website about a Native American tribe written by members of said trive, though. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 21:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- Also forgot to mention that we have seen that article and similar articles while doing research. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 23:14, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
- What makes English Travellers sundry from Romani? StewardOtto (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, Otto, what are you doing here and how did you even find this page? Second, I'm pretty sure they have a distinct identity, culture, history, and geographical distribution compared to Roma and other Traveller groups. They make it explicitly clear on their website that they are not Roma. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
- I found this page because I'm an English speaker and I like travelling. And also, I thought romani and travellers were the same thing. Do they even share north indian origins? StewardOtto (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- Roma do, Travellers don't. There are a variety of ethnic groups that are considered Travellers. Most well-known are the Irish Travellers (also known as Pavee or Mincéirs), they're indigenous to Ireland. In the US they divide themselves into several subgroups, Ohio Travellers, Georgia Travellers, Texas Travellers, and Mississippi Travellers. Then there are the Highland Travellers, who are indigenous to the Scottish Highlands. They're often referred to as Scottish Travellers in the US. Then there are the Yenish Travellers, who are indigenous to parts of Western Europe, particularly the Rhineland. Then you have the Voyageurs, who are indigenous to Flanders. There are also the Reizigers who are indigenous to the Netherlands and may be descended from Yenish Travellers. There are also the Reisende, who are indigenous to Norway and are also likely descended from Yenish Travellers. They are not to be confused with the Romanisæl, who also call themselves Reisende. Then you have the Camminanti, who are indigenous to Sicily. There are also the Mercheros who are indigenous to Spain. I believe the Spanish article cites more sources. Should probably import those soon. We've heard there are also Indigenous Welsh Travellers and Welsh Travellers in the US, but we can't find any information on them beyond "they exist, moving on". There were also Indigenous English Travellers up until around the 17th century when they merged with local Roma populations. The English Travellers of Texas likely have no relation to them, as their origin lies in the 19th century. I'm sure there's some groups I'm missing, and there is some overlap between Roma and Travellers, but that's the gist of it. ~Tammy of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- "There were also Indigenous English Travellers up until around the 17th century when they merged with local Roma populations" And your citation is? Nor have I ever heard of "Indigenous Welsh Travellers". Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Here's our citations for the existence of Indigenous English Travellers, http://www.romaninet.com/ROMANINET_Cultural_report.pdf, Romani in Britain: The Afterlife of a Language, https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture/ (the last one may just be referring to Romanichal, but the other two stand for sure). As for the Indigenous Welsh Travellers, looking back at our sources, I'm unsure whether or not they're referring to the Welsh Kale and other such Roma groups. Will have to ask. We have also seen scant mentions of Welsh Travellers in the US, though we aren't sure what ethnic group is being referenced in those sources. ~Tammy of Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- I would consider a couple of passing mentions as an extremely poor source for claiming the existence of an ethnic group. One would expect them to have been mentioned in some of the large research output on British travellers. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- There is also this, but it doesn't contain much more information. Will have to ask the org if they have more sources. https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture/ ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- ...you already posted that source. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Whoops, thought I hadn't posted it. It's rather hard to find information on the Indigenous English Travellers because, as mentioned, the Romanichal are also called English Travellers and they're far more well-known. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- There is a adopt an highway sign going into Iola, Tx that says sponsored by the members of the English Travellers of Texas. There also used to be a marble marker at the zion cematary from the 50's that was stolen that talked about the English Travellers. Just was doing some research on them and came across that stuff. 98.17.55.30 (talk) 00:41, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
- Whoops, thought I hadn't posted it. It's rather hard to find information on the Indigenous English Travellers because, as mentioned, the Romanichal are also called English Travellers and they're far more well-known. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- ...you already posted that source. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- There is also this, but it doesn't contain much more information. Will have to ask the org if they have more sources. https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture/ ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:22, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- I would consider a couple of passing mentions as an extremely poor source for claiming the existence of an ethnic group. One would expect them to have been mentioned in some of the large research output on British travellers. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Here's our citations for the existence of Indigenous English Travellers, http://www.romaninet.com/ROMANINET_Cultural_report.pdf, Romani in Britain: The Afterlife of a Language, https://travellermovement.org.uk/gypsy-roma-and-traveller-history-and-culture/ (the last one may just be referring to Romanichal, but the other two stand for sure). As for the Indigenous Welsh Travellers, looking back at our sources, I'm unsure whether or not they're referring to the Welsh Kale and other such Roma groups. Will have to ask. We have also seen scant mentions of Welsh Travellers in the US, though we aren't sure what ethnic group is being referenced in those sources. ~Tammy of Arctic Circle System (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
- "There were also Indigenous English Travellers up until around the 17th century when they merged with local Roma populations" And your citation is? Nor have I ever heard of "Indigenous Welsh Travellers". Eldomtom2 (talk) 17:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Roma do, Travellers don't. There are a variety of ethnic groups that are considered Travellers. Most well-known are the Irish Travellers (also known as Pavee or Mincéirs), they're indigenous to Ireland. In the US they divide themselves into several subgroups, Ohio Travellers, Georgia Travellers, Texas Travellers, and Mississippi Travellers. Then there are the Highland Travellers, who are indigenous to the Scottish Highlands. They're often referred to as Scottish Travellers in the US. Then there are the Yenish Travellers, who are indigenous to parts of Western Europe, particularly the Rhineland. Then you have the Voyageurs, who are indigenous to Flanders. There are also the Reizigers who are indigenous to the Netherlands and may be descended from Yenish Travellers. There are also the Reisende, who are indigenous to Norway and are also likely descended from Yenish Travellers. They are not to be confused with the Romanisæl, who also call themselves Reisende. Then you have the Camminanti, who are indigenous to Sicily. There are also the Mercheros who are indigenous to Spain. I believe the Spanish article cites more sources. Should probably import those soon. We've heard there are also Indigenous Welsh Travellers and Welsh Travellers in the US, but we can't find any information on them beyond "they exist, moving on". There were also Indigenous English Travellers up until around the 17th century when they merged with local Roma populations. The English Travellers of Texas likely have no relation to them, as their origin lies in the 19th century. I'm sure there's some groups I'm missing, and there is some overlap between Roma and Travellers, but that's the gist of it. ~Tammy of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:44, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- I found this page because I'm an English speaker and I like travelling. And also, I thought romani and travellers were the same thing. Do they even share north indian origins? StewardOtto (talk) 02:40, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
- First of all, Otto, what are you doing here and how did you even find this page? Second, I'm pretty sure they have a distinct identity, culture, history, and geographical distribution compared to Roma and other Traveller groups. They make it explicitly clear on their website that they are not Roma. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 07:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages
[edit]My recent edits to this page have been reverted by an anonymous editor at 173.185.116.243, who failed to give any justification in the edit summaries.
My edits were to implement Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages. Disambiguation pages are intended to help readers find a specific article they want when there is topic ambiguity. It should not include a general discussion.
The Manual of Style page includes the following rules for individual entries:
- Include exactly one navigable (blue) link to efficiently guide readers to the most relevant article for that use of the ambiguous term. Do not wikilink any other words in the line.
- Keep the description associated with a link to a minimum, just sufficient to allow the reader to find the correct link.
The entries for Bargee Travellers or for the the group in Texas break the rules because they do not include links to articles or potential articles. We should only have entries that link to a non-existent article (a "red link") when a linked article (not just other disambiguation pages) also includes that red link (see MOS:DABRED). So, we could include a entry with a link to English Travelers (Texas) only if another (non-disambiguation) page includes the same red link.
I trimmed the other entries of unnecessary details, only leaving the text that is needed to help readers to identify what each linked article covers, without other links.
The editor appears to be attempting to expand the page into a general article on nomadic communities in England. This is not what disambiguation pages are for, and it would be better to expand Itinerant groups in Europe with this type of information.
Please justify the changes to this page or I will restore my edits. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:22, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
- In the absence of a response I have restored my edits. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)