User talk:Verbcatcher

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Hello, Verbcatcher, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome!

I like your additions with precision around Gardiner! - If you have questions, feel free to ask here, I will watch. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Eric Estorick[edit]

I posted a request at Template:Did you know nominations/Eric Estorick. -- Jreferee (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I have corrected a typo in your nomination.Verbcatcher (talk) 06:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Eric Estorick[edit]

Given that this article is an example of what you can do now, I'd love to see your future efforts. The only comment that I'd make is probably pulling some of the information that is on separate lines into paragraph form, but that's pretty minor. Welcome!Naraht (talk) 14:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree about the short paragraphs, but I like to keep each paragraph on a separate topic. I hope to get more material to flesh out the existing paragraphs - I have more references to explore. I have also recently written the article on Frances Richards (artist) Verbcatcher (talk) 17:01, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Eric Estorick[edit]

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Re: Hermann Nonnenmacher[edit]

Thanks for assistance and comments. dnw (talk) 22:32, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You have made a signification improvement: it looks and reads like a good quality article. Much better than I could do on my own.

dnw (talk) 23:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Query regarding images[edit]

The Nonnenmarcker article caused a chain of thought about a print I own, by Iain Macnab. I have improved the existing article.

Could you give your view on illustrating the article on Macnab with my own picture on a print we have. The only justification would be that it is a photo I have taken (no other rights issue), and 'fair use' which seems to be rather frowned upon but tolerated in certain cases? It always seems a great pity to discuss an artist but not show an image. the image is available here:

Also if you know your way about UK online newspapers would be able you find out what years was Macnab the president of 'The Royal Institute of Oil Painters' dnw (talk) 09:53, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree about the desirability of illustrations. I was pleased to be able to add images to James Dickson Innes and to Malacara. I found both these images on Wikimedia Commons, where someone else had taken the responsibility for posting. I have replied to your question on Talk:Iain Macnab, which seems the best place to discuss it.
I'll look in the UK newspaper archives to which I have access, but I'm not hopeful. I hadn't heard of 'The Royal Institute of Oil Painters', so it's probably not a high-profile organisation. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I found obituaries in The Times and The Glasgow Herald, and updated the article with material from them. They both said he was President of the Royal Institute of Oil Painters, which I take to mean that he was president when he died. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Category:Members of 56 Group Wales[edit]

Category:Members of 56 Group Wales, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. DexDor (talk) 22:06, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

List of Wales listed buildings[edit]

See commons:Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2013_in_the_United_Kingdom/planning#Wales. -- Thryduulf (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Church near Talgarth[edit]

Good to meet yesterday. The church you mentioned is St Ellyw's Church, Llanelieu, and the article mentions the rood screen! Robevans123 (talk) 10:22, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. I took some photos there recently - I'll see whether they are worth posting. Verbcatcher (talk)

Speedy deletion nomination of École Gratuite de Dessin[edit]

Hello Verbcatcher,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged École Gratuite de Dessin for deletion, because it doesn't appear to contain any encyclopedic content. Take a look at our suggestions for essential content in short articles to learn what should be included.

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. WMartin74 (talk) 15:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

See my comments in User talk:WMartin74. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:32, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

More YouTube moaning[edit]

Hi Verbcatcher. What's your view on videos at the BBC's own dedicated YouTube channel? Do links to these still break Wiki copyright policy? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:19, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm no expert. If in doubt post a question at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. However, I think it's ok to link to videos on the BBC's YouTube channel. Similarly, I recently posted a link to photos posted on Flickr by the National Library of Wales. If we have good reason to believe that the person or organisation posting holds the rights then its ok to link. We should be able to assume that reputable organisations such as these would not post copyright violations. Be aware that some sites only allow access to users from a limited list of countries. Linking to these is fine for citations, but probably not for External Links. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Many thanks. Yes, that's an interesting point about different countries having different access. Presumably in all cases the YouTube link would work but, depending on which country you are in, you might or might not hear/see something as a result. My particular bugbear is music companies who globally block material from their label, or of a given artist on their label, regardless of whether or not the company has deleted the work from their catalogue. I'm sure it's a much bigger problem for the artist concerned. Of course, that isn't a Wikipedia problem. It's just a YouTube/record company problem. But YouTube seems to be generally much more permissive now than it used to be - discounting the totalitarian pariah state that is Warner Bros, of course (.. oh dear that probably counts as defamation, had better stop now....) Martinevans123 (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
I have thoughts along some of the same lines. I'd like there to be some form of right of access to copyrighted material, along the lines of the right to roam on uncultivated land. However, we should try to achieve this by mainstream political means, and not by actions that might undermine the good guys such as Wikipedia. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Hear, hear! Except that in my case it's called the right to moan. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Default sort[edit]

Just a reminder that DEFAULTSORT is not a template, but a magic word, and uses a slightly different markup, involving a colon: eg. {{DEFAULTSORT:Penrice, Illtyd, Saint, Church}}, not {{DEFAULTSORT|Penrice, Illtyd, Saint, Church}}. — Paul A (talk) 04:57, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Paul A. The confusion isn't helped by title of the the article Template:DEFAULTSORT. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:32, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
The Template:DEFAULTSORT page was created because a large number of people were already getting confused, in the hope that they'd read it before trying to use the "template". Of course, there will always be people who apply templates without stopping to read the instruction page, but we like to think it's helped. — Paul A (talk) 00:51, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Castell Coch[edit]

I hope you like the re-wording. And my sincere apologies if I seemed a little possessive. A bad Wikipedia flaw. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 19:29, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

No apology is needed. It might read better with a one- or two-word description of Charles Handley-Read, such as "the architectural writer Charles Handley-Read wrote:".
On another topic, I'm thinking of improving Neath Abbey, but I can't find any evidence of the abbey ruins being a listed building. Where would you look? Verbcatcher (talk) 22:53, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it's not quite as easy as one might hope. This site, British Listed Buildings Online (BLBO) [[1]] is invaluable, but it is now out of date, and is not being updated. For England, it has been superseded by the English Heritage database. But this only covers England. The BLBO page for Neath, which I've attached, does not appear to show any part of the Abbey as being listed. However, I'm almost certain it must be a Scheduled Ancient Monument, which is not the same as a listed building. And indeed it does appear on the Coflein site, which is the on-line database for the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, here [[2]]. But this doesn't explicitly say it is Scheduled. I shall keep looking for you. P.S. Shall also contextualise Handley-Read - but doesn't everyone know who he was? KJP1 (talk) 17:35, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
This [[3]], linked to this, [[4]] tells us it is a SAM. Do you have access to John Newman's Glamorgan in the Pevsner Buildings of Wales series? Pages 463 to 471 inclusive comprise a long article on Neath Abbey. I could certainly add some information if you don't have a copy, or access to one, yourself. His article on Castell Coch in the same volume is also excellent, by the way. KJP1 (talk) 17:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
After I wrote my note I decided that Neath Abbey was probably a Scheduled Ancient Monument. Does this preclude it also being a listed building? I have found useful details of Neath Abbey here, which confirms SAM status. There is also useful material in Vol 2 of Stewart Williams' Glamorgan Historian. I hope to expand the article based on these sources and on Newman. I used Newman to expand Castell Coch#Early history; I was pleased to find the old engraving to illustrate this. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:46, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


Hi Verbcatcher.

I don't agree with all of one of your edits (Article after the edit). One person's "unnecessary and over-technical detail" may be of real interest to someone else (like me) and add some colour to an article. I would like to put some of the detail back in, but I might create a new article for the detail regarding Tomen yr Allt. What do you think?

Emerald (talk) 10:13, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

@Emerald-wiki: I removed (Tomen yr Allt, the caput of the commote of Mechain Uwch Coed in the cantref of Mechain) because I had to look up most of these terms to make sense of the phrase, and caput does not mention Wales. Presumably the meaning is equivalent to The central settlement in an Anglo-Saxon multiple estate. The reference I deleted probably justifies a change to caput to include Wales. We could have the central settlement of the commote of Mechain Uwch Coed in the cantref of Mechain, and maybe explain commote and cantref, but I still think this is too much detail.
I removed (or Cynfyn; Madog's fuller name would be Madog ap Maredudd ap Bleddyn ap Cynfyn) and Bell Lloyd inherited the house in 1758, but the work he had carried out resulted in huge debts, he died in the King's Bench debtors' prison in London in 1793 because I think these give too much detail in the context of an article on the town.
On reflection I would restore the name Tomen yr Allt, particularly if a new article is forthcoming. I will change the text to It is likely that a house was built on the site after the destruction in 1256 of Tomen yr Allt, a motte and bailey castle which stood on the hill above. I don't think we need wooden.
I encourage you to write a new article on Tomen yr Allt or on Bodfach Hall. Thanks for your work on this article. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:02, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
@Emerald-wiki: Of course this is just my opinion. We could continue this discussion at Talk:Llanfyllin. Is Mechain Uwch Coed an old name for Llanfyllin? If we can find a good reference this should go in the history section. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:15, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

@Verbcatcher: The cantref of Mechain became the hundred of Llanfyllin. Infact 'cantref' means hundred in the sense of a hundred settlements. So, no, Mechain Uwch Coed wasn't the old name for Llanfyllin it was the name of an area which would have included several parishes, Llanfyllin being one of them. Emerald (talk) 17:27, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

RE: Arthur Giardelli[edit]

Hi. "Disease-related deaths, would not be significant for death aged 98". Of course at age 98 that is no surprise. However, the Deaths from disease category is often used as a catchall -- especially so the place of death can be categorised -- where there is no evidence of a non-disease-related or "unnatural death" (i.e. road accident, airplane crash, homicide, suicide, terrorism, et al), because everyone dies of something, but when no specific cause of death is provided publicly.

It's a case by case thing -- if no cause of death is given but the decedent is, say, 40 years old, obviously no way. But at 98, sure, especially as there is, understandably, no category for Deaths from old age. It can always be removed or updated later if further info becomes public.

Yours, Quis separabit? 00:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC) I removed the Category:Disease-related deaths in Wales because the cause of death is not given in the two cited obituaries. Also, this is not a defining characteristic of Giardelli, which is a guideline for categorisation. WP:NON-DEFINING says "if the characteristic would not be appropriate to mention in the lead portion of an article, it is probably not defining".Verbcatcher (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
We will have to agree to disagree. I did not revert your edit. Quis separabit? 01:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC) What are you disagreeing with? I am saying:
  1. Cause of death is not a defining characteristic for this article
  2. Defining characteristics is a key Wikipedia guideline for avoiding over-categorisation
Are you disagreeing with one of these statements, or are you saying that this Wikipedia guideline is foolish? Do you favour having a cause of death category in all biographical articles? Verbcatcher (talk) 02:04, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree that cause of death is often not a defining characteristic in biographies. But that doesn't mean we ignore it. As far as the categories go, the deaths in ... are usefui for categorising the place and year of death, as simple biographical info, when such info is available. If a category exists there is no reason not to use it if one is willing to make the extra effort. I am not going to discuss it anymore. Quis separabit? 02:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC) BTW: listen no hard feelings. You and I just have different mindsets. There are categories which exist and are used but which I suspect (let me know if I am wrong here) you would have little or no use for, such as Category:Year of birth missing, Category:Place of birth missing, Category:Year of birth unknown, Category:Place of birth unknown, Category:Year of birth uncertain, Category:Date of birth missing, Category:Date of birth unknown, etc. If you want to get rid of them as flawed methodology via CFD, go for it. Less work for me, anyway. Yours, Quis separabit? 02:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The missing categories are useful for Wikipedia editors but not for the general user. They should probably be subcategories of Category:Wikipedia cleanup, and be hidden categories. We should try to avoid overcategorization. Verbcatcher (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Twm o'r Nant[edit]

I really like what you have added. Do you know of any translations? My grandfather had a tatty old copy of the "Gwaith.." but I never read it (and I don't know what happened to it anyway) and now I would definitely need a translation, my limited kitchen-Welsh isn't up to poetic prose! Notice you live near Cambridge - me too, practically neighbours! Emerald (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Emerald. I have not found any translations, but I have just found a English language play by Dedwydd Jones that I have now mentioned in the article. This probably includes translated quotations from Twm. I guessed that you had a Cambridge connection from your edit history (only low-grade stalking!). Perhaps we could meet at a Wikipedia meetup. I attended one last year. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Emerald, George Borrow has a translation from Riches and Poverty in Wild Wales chapter 60, available here. Verbcatcher (talk) 17:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Verbcatcher, I do have my grandfather's old copy of 'Wild Wales' and just read the translation. I like Borrow's name for Twm - Tom o' the Dingle - quaint! Emerald (talk) 09:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Elizabeth Báthory[edit]

It's somewhat difficult to define the book of the French writer/poetess Valentine Penrose. It is both a historical essay and a "smuggled novel" ("L'infidèle biographe de la Bathory, Valentine Boué-Penrose, avait su se départir de la modération française pour offrir au lecteur dans son roman de contrebande quelques belles pages convulsives.", to quote the French essayist Michel Meurger, who has written furthermore a short study about the iron maiden myth).
That is why the French Wiki rightly classifies this book in the bibliographic section "Literature".
Regards. Guise (talk) 20:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

@Guise: I was guided by the novel article which says "A novel is a long narrative, normally in prose, which describes fictional characters and events, usually in the form of a sequential story." Báthory was not a fictional character. However, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. My dictionary (Collins English Dictionary, 2nd ed.) has an extended work in prose, either fictitious or partly so, dealing with character, action, thought, etc. esp. in the form of a story. I don't know how much of Valentine Penrose's book is fictitious but it is probably more significant whether she believed it to be fictional. Penrose was a surrealist poet so I would expect her writing to be imaginative and symbolic. I'm not sure where this book should be placed in the continuum between scholarly history and speculative historical fiction. In view of this uncertainty I felt "novel" could be misleading, and preferred the neutral "book". Does Littérature in French imply fiction? It does not necessarily do so in English.
It's difficult to know where to place this book in the article. As far as such distinctions are valid, this book is probably high culture rather than popular culture, so it doesn't fit in the Folklore and popular culture section or in the Elizabeth Báthory in popular culture article. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Reference errors on 16 July[edit]

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Welsh-speaking people[edit]

Unfortunately, as I am sure you will appreciate, it is particularly difficult to find a web-page that states "This person speaks Welsh" for every Welsh-speaking person on Wikipedia. Indeed, in most cases, it is impossible. Whilst you now appear to acknowledge that Rhodri Jones is a Welsh speaker, (a fact that I had attempted to note by the addition of that particular page to the Welsh-speaking people category), it is disappointing that you seemed to assume that he was not a Welsh speaker and hastily removed this page from the Welsh-speaking people category, rather than attempting to find a reference for this prior to deletion of this addition to the Welsh-speaking people category. It is even more disappointing that you felt the need to delete all of my other contributions to the Welsh-speaking people category. Whilst I acknowledge that to be able to reference this would be useful, as mentioned above, this is not always possible. Even so, the fact remains that these people are able to speak Welsh! Please note that numerous other pages exist that state that a person can speak a particular language without providing a direct reference in support, for example Brian Wilson (Labour politician). Without being able to refer to a web-page, can you please suggest how this matter may be resolved? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haul~cywiki (talkcontribs) 22:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Haul~cywiki, I did not "assume that he was not a Welsh speaker", I merely removed unsourced material about living people. I am not questioning whether these people speak Welsh, they probably do.
Providing reliable references is central to Wikepedia. See Help:Introduction to referencing/1, which says

One of the key policies of Wikipedia is that all article content has to be verifiable. This means that a reliable source must be able to support the material.

– and –

If you are adding such new content, it is your responsibility to add source information along with it. Material provided without a source may be removed from an article. Sometimes such material will be tagged first with the {{citation needed}} template to give editors time to find and add sources.

Basically, you shouldn't add facts to a Wikipedia article just because you know them to be accurate; you should cite a reliable source. This is particularly important for biographies of living persons. I know that thousands of Wikipedia articles have uncited facts, but we should try to improve Wikipiedia.
Even though it was your responsibility to provide a source, I had a quick look at the existing sources cited in these articles and found no support for your edits.
Incidentally, it is not always desirable to add an article to a category, even if it meets the criteria. See Wikipedia:Categorization, which says:

A central concept used in categorising articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define in prose, as opposed to a tabular or list form the subject as having—such as nationality or notable profession (in the case of people), type of location or region (in the case of places), etc.

Although I feel this "defining characteristic" guideline may be be too restrictive, I'm clear that an article should not be included in a category if the characteristic is not important enough to mention in the main text. For example, I think that being Welsh-speaking is not a defining characteristic of Jamie Jones (DJ) (unless he performs in Welsh), so I would not add him to the category even if I had a good source (but I probably wouldn't revert it if someone else had added it).
You refer to the inclusion of Brian Wilson (Labour politician) in Category:Scottish Gaelic-speaking people. While the article does not specifically say that Wilson speaks Gaelic it says that "He was Scotland's first designated Minister for Gaelic", which sort of implies that he speaks the language. It I had a source I would add "A native Gaelic speaker," at the start of that sentence. However, I am not defending that article, which another editor has already tagged with {{More footnotes}}.
However, I'm nobody special and you don't have to take my advice. If you are unhappy with my actions or you want an independent view then you could ask a question at Wikipedia:Help desk. I am sorry if I seem heavy-handed or didactic, I am aware that you are a new editor and I do not want to put you off. Please continue to contribute to Wikipedia. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

John Thomas (photographer)[edit]

I can thoroughly recommend the 1977 book by Woollen and Crawford. Many bargain copies are available the net - mine cost 64p. Among the most notable images is this one of David Lloyd George. Might be a good addition to the article? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Martinevans123, : Do Woollen and Crawford support the identification of Thomas in File:A group of walkers (?) NLW3366276.jpg, as discussed in Talk:John Thomas (photographer)? The Lloyd George picture is already in Commons at File:David Lloyd George NLW3362532.jpg. We should add a few photos to the article. Here is my suggested selection. What do you think?
A woman knitting in a black hat)
A woman in traditional dress
A man of about twenty
An old woman sitting in a doorway
A woman who saw Twm o'r Nant installing a grate
Portraits by John Thomas
Men standing on a quay with a sailing ship in the background
Aberdyfi regatta
Cattle in a river with houses in the background
Cattle by the river, Llandysul
A donkey-cart and several people in front of an inn
The Ship Inn, Aberdaron
Photogtaphs John Thomas
Verbcatcher (talk) 23:58, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
I think a gallery containing all of these would be a fine addition. Curiously neither the "My mother (sitting)" nor the "group of walkers" appear in the book. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC) Just for future reference, the plates which do appear in the book are as follows:
  1. W. Evans' Boat, Llanddulas F3
  2. Cemaes R78
  3. Angels TT9
  4. Drawing Room Scene TT10
  5. Independent Ministers BB31
  6. Group of Ministers, Liverpool 1867 BB11
  7. Dr. Owen Thomas, Liverpool LL19
  8. Rev. L. W. Hughes HH80
  9. Little Jones the Poet, Llanboidy JJ71
  10. Lloyd George K45
  11. Welsh Costume KK35
  12. Pegi Llwyd W3
  13. Woman in Shawl EE11
  14. Cadi'r Big y Ro-wen, Denbighshire U78
  15. Two Girls with Cups KK15
  16. Mrs. James W Cost, Old Lady KK15
  17. Bet Foxhall (Whitland) KK44
  18. The mother of John Davis, Nerquis c.1865 Bb53
  19. Cellan Factory DD38
  20. Cilgerran Fair B64
  21. Llanwrst Bards 1876 J85
  22. Shearing Sheep J54
  23. Carno Mill R52
  24. Robert, Clysyblaidd, Cerrigydrudion CC30
  25. Penllechog Mill, Llanaelhaiarn DD68
  26. Gwaith Sets, Llanaelhaiarn A12
  27. Dick Pugh KK83
  28. Davis, the Joiner KK52
  29. The Tailor Bryndu KK57
  30. Lord Penmachno, father of all the quarrymen BB17
  31. Joiners, Carwen KK50
  32. Business Bob, Llanwrst Q36
  33. Morris 'Baboon' Kk73
  34. Mr. Roberts, Harpist BB28
  35. Drovers, Montgomery KK56
  36. Sleeping Beauties Q72
  37. Morax Workers, Aberffraw S5
  38. Llanfair Post Office R66
  39. Capel Garmon Natives EE7
  40. Six men in fancy costumes 02
  41. Group of Cricketers, Newcastle Emlyn C53
  42. Old Women of Ysbyty (Ifan) Alms House FF7
  43. Cerrigydrudion Alms Houses CC27
  44. A Starved Boy JJ82